Questioning an Alfie Kohn Idea

[CurlyTop]

Hi Everyone,

First, I completely agree with almost everything I've heard from Alfie Kohn. I got to see him speak twice and left feeling really inspired and ready to parent even more unconditionally. However, I would like some other perspectives on one point:

He argues that punishment focuses children on themselves; i.e., what will happen to ME if I do something wrong. His alternative approach is to consider what the consequences are for another person instead. He's all for consequences, just not for consequences to the child herself. For example, "Look how sad Timmy is. He really wanted to play with your rollerskates longer."

My concern is that this is also dangerous in that kids may tend to look to other people for their opinion of themselves - not just for their opinion of their actions. He argues again and again that kids cannot distinguish completely the difference between not liking their behavior vs. not liking them while they are behaving that way.

Is there really a way to encourage internal drive to do the right thing?

CurlyTop

[Embee]

I see what you're saying and I suppose like with anything, its up for interpretation. Here is how I interpreted this...

While I certainly don't wish for DS to use other people's opinions to define who he is, I do want him to know that his actions affect others. While their opinions certainly shouldn't shape who he is, their feelings do matter and respect for others is one of the two places I tend to draw the line with DS (that, and safety). In most disciplinary situations that I can think of, I'm calling into question DS's actions because its clearly interferring with someone's elses boundaries. Rather than punish DS for doing this or that, I will point out to him how his actions may be effecting other people. For example: DS likes to pretend to be a dinosaur and its all well and good until he gets too rough or "roary" at them. If the other child plays along, great but... sometimes its clear that DS is crossing their comfort zone. At this point, I will point out to him that while its clear he's having fun pretending, his buddy seems very uncomfortable with having been roared at in the face, "I can see that you're having so much fun being a T-Rex there Buddy, but Cindy looked very upset when you roared in her face. I can see you want to say hello, perhaps a little less GRRRR next time, eh?"

I think there is a distinction to be made between shaping one's behavior to accomodate others and losing oneself in the process and having a sense of what others might be feeling as a result of your actions and modifying your actions to be respectful of their feelings. For me, there is a real difference between the statement mentioned above and something like, "If you aren't nice to Cindy, she won't want to be your friend." I've actually heard parents saying things like this and it creeps me...

My .02 for what its worth.

[SagMom]

Originally Posted by CurlyTop

My concern is that this is also dangerous in that kids may tend to look to other people for their opinion of themselves - not just for their opinion of their actions.

But the focus is not on child #1's opinion of child #2. It's on child #1's feelings.

When my son was in 1st grade and waiting on line to go into school, some of the kids snatched a toy and were passing it around. Ds asked them, "How would YOU like it if someone took something of yours and wouldn't give it back?" They all looked a little startled by this, and then they returned the toy. I think this is what Kohn is going after--and this IS empathy. The focus is solely on the child's feelings about what happened to him. It's not about judgement of the other child.

[CurlyTop]

Thank you thank you for writing back, both of you. I had misinterpreted what he was saying. It sounded to me like it was okay to "manipulate" your child's behavior as long as you relied on pointing out the consequences to someone else. That's a looooong way from helping them stop doing something unfair or disrespectful to someone else.

So, for clarity-sake, say my DD is not interested in using the potty. It would not be okay to point out that others have to smell her dirty diaper so she should use the potty. But if she were running under the legs of an elderly person who might fall, it would be okay to point out that she should be very careful around that person (but not to say, if you don't stop running around grandma I'm not going to take you to the park today).

Right?
CurlyTop

[mosky22]

It is so interesting that you brought up this point. I just read a new article on Alfie Kohn's website that address this very issue. It has to do with helping children, as you say, not to be focused on themselves, but, as he says, to see another perspective. I just started using it with dd. Instead of just asking her to share. I told her how it would help her friend to feel better if she could have some of what dd was eating. The results were not ground breaking, but I consider it another tool of persasion. I don't really consider it manipulation. DD is probably not thinking about the other childs feelings. If she does consider them and then sees a positive result from her actions, then maybe she will internalize that her actions helped someone else to feel good, and that will in turn make her feel good. I think what it comes down to, is helping children develop empathy and a deeper understanding of interpersoanl communication. Which gives them the tools to see deeper into their relationships with others.

http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/differentview.htm

[BusyMommy]

Great discussion.
Just a bit OT but we're always telling our kids to tell someone to "stop it" when they're bothering them; ie. the giant dinosaur ROAR in the face or an unwelcomed wrestle, etc. So, yesterday we're having this very same discussion while standing next to a glacier and watching the kids throw snowballs and rocks in the water. One of the Moms had a great perspective. She tells her daughter to say "stop it" to 1. express her feelings and 2. to HELP the other child realize how his action is affecting her. It actually helps child #1 to redirect his behavior now and, hopefully, in the future.

Make any sense?
yawn
It's coffee time here.