dh/ds are circ'd, wants to circ this one too - update!

[imgr8ful]

good news! we've discussed and discussed and discussed and come to the agreement that if this babe is a boy - he will remain intact! yay! dh's only concern now is the possibility of having one circ'd and one intact and they are only 17 months apart. this is a concern for me as well - i'm very nervous that it could be an issue for ds1 (why did you circ me and not brother?) later on - so any tips, suggestions for dealing with that issue are very much appreciated!

here's some things that got him thinking...

*the 7 out of 10 now intact baby boys on the west coast really stood out for him
*reading a few articles and the ama/apa statement that says it's not medically necessary
*finding out that pam anderson's babe's are intact :LOL
*reminding him that penises evolved to their current state and since he has a minor in human evolution - he should see that there's no need to cut anything off - it's all there for a reason!

so - thanks for the advice and support everyone!

[eightyferrettoes]

Check out the stickies up top. There is a lot of good info out there.

As far as information being nonbiased, it is difficult to do any research into circumcision at all and then NOT be biased about it. It is exquisite torture for the baby (imagine having a part of your labia cut off), it is medically unnecessary, and it reduces the sexual feelings in adult men.

I live in a community with a supposedly high circ rate, but if everyone in my town had their daughters' labia removed, I wouldn't do it just to fit in. Don't be afraid to stand up against it.

I just checked out your location! If you're a Fairbanks mama, I guarantee you aren't the only one who isn't circing her kid! Pm me if you want.

[calngavinsmom]

Hi there. I really don't have much to add, just some support. The sticky up top "Web Resources" has really great info in it(as eightyferrettoes aleady pointed out(see I really didn't add much! ))

As for the "eveyone in the family is" reasoning, eh, so was everyone in mine and dh's family before our first ds was born. Some traditions NEED to be broken and this definately is one of them. Circumcision is unhealthy. Read this pamphlet from the Canadian Pediatric Society,
http://www.caringforkids.cps.ca/babies/Circumcision.htm

They are the equivilent to the American Academy of Pediatrics. If you noticed, it is the circumcised boys who end up with more problems according to them, and even this pamphlet is off because most "needed" circumcisions for intact boys later in life are a result of poor care(forced retraction) or ignorant doctors.

The real numbers for these are much lower, which in turn makes it even worse on paper for circumcised boys, tipping the scales in their favour for additional risk of later genital surgery. Sad really.

I hope you have some luck with your dh. Keep us posted!

Take care,
Tara

[AntoninBeGonin]

Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes

It is exquisite torture for the baby (imagine having a part of your labia cut off),

Is that really a fair comparison? Maybe it's just my body being weird, but my labia doesn't seem to have much feeling. I was showing my DH that I can pinch, twist, and yank the hell out of it and I barely feel a thing.

~Nay

[eightyferrettoes]

Originally Posted by AntoninBeGonin

Is that really a fair comparison? Maybe it's just my body being weird, but my labia doesn't seem to have much feeling. I was showing my DH that I can pinch, twist, and yank the hell out of it and I barely feel a thing.

~Nay

TMI, girlfriend! :LOL

I could probably yank and pull and such, but the thought of having them "trimmed" for cosmetic purposes still makes me squirm.

[~Kira~]

Maybe if labia were super-glued down, then ripped up, clamped and cut off?





I don't know if the Web Resources is a copy of any of these, but here is a list of links:


Begin Here (FAQ's, etc.)
http://www.cirp.org/pages/parents/

It's a BOY!
http://circumstitions.com/Itsaboy.html

The Case Against Circumcision
http://www.mothering.....by/circumci...cumcision.html

Circumcision: Human Rights Issue?
http://www.sentienttimes.com/03/dec_...umcisionT.html

Not just 'A Snip'!
http://www.noharmm.org/snip.htm

Typical Procedure (Turn sound up for video clips & MAKE DH WATCH)
http://circumcisionquotes.com/circvid9.rm
http://www.cirp.org/library/procedur...ibell/circ.mov
http://ftp.intact.ca/images/new025.mpeg

Medical communities
http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/
http://www.nocircnc/medicalstatements.htm
http://www.circumcision.org/studies.htm
http://www.intact.ca/saskmemo.html
http://www.icigi.org/Downloads/FullDisclosure.pdf

General Info
http://www.mothering.com/10-0-0/html...cision85.shtml
http://www.circumcision.org/info.htm
http://www.noharmm.org/separated.htm
http://www.mensjournal.com/healthFit...cumcision.html
http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/ilearned.html
http://www.cirp.org/library/general/

Risks and Complications
http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/compl-rr.htm
http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/complications.html
http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/
http://www.infocirc.org/fourn.htm

Pain
http://www.circumcison.org/response.htm
http://www.infocirc.org/babypain.htm
http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/

Sexual Dysfunction
http://www.boystoo.com/medical/conversion.htm
http://www.cirp.org/library/sex_function/
http://www.norm.org/lost.html

Rates
http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/bollinger2001/
http://www.courtchallenge.com/refs/rate1m.html

UTIs
http://www.infocirc.org/uti2.htm
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/

Breastfeeding & Maternal Bonding
http://www.nocirc.org/statements/bre...ement2002.html
http://www.cirp.org/library/birth/

Cancer
http://www.cirp.org/library/statemen...s/1996-02_ACS/
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/

Personal Experiences
http://www.stopcirc.com/
http://www.circumcision.org/mothers.htm
http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/chose_to_circ.html

Intact versus Circed penis care
http://www.nocirc.org/publish/4pam.pdf
http://www.nocirc.org/publish/5pam.pdf
http://www.tornwing.com/peacefulbegi...ysgenitals.htm
http://www.cirp.org/library/normal/

Protecting your Intact Son
http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...uncircson.html

Hygiene & Problems
http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/vanhowe/
News Articles
http://www.cirp.org/news/

Cute Article
http://www.geocities.com/raisingintactsons/

Adult Circumcision ("His Penis, His Choice")
http://www.circumcisioncenter.com/
http://www.nocircoftx.org/info/vs.html

MGM vs FGM
http://www.noharmm.org/comparison.htm
http://www.circumstitions.com/FGMvsMGM.html
http://www.circumstitions.com/Develop.html

FGM links
www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm
www.noharmm.org/morepages.htm
www.cirp.org/pages/female
www.ccsu.edu/afstudy/upd3-2.html
www.jannah.org/genderequity/equityappendix.html
www.noharmm.org/comparison.htm
http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/Anthro...out_female.htm
www.noharmm.org/femcirctech.htm
www.minaret.org/fgm.htm

Foreskin Restoration
http://www.norm.org





-Kira

[bleurae]

Actually the foreskin is EXACTLY equal to the clitoral hood, the skin that hides or covers the clit. It is filled with nerve endings as well and is a protective cover so the clit does not rub and get desensitized.

[bobandjess99]

MAKE HIM WATCH!! There are lots of links posted. Find the nastiest one you can, and make him watch. If, after watching, he still wants it to be done, tell him it will be HIS responsibility to have it done. HE must make the appt, go with the babe, watch as they tie his child down screaming and cut off part of his body, probably with either no or incomplete anesthesia. I have never heard of a dh actually doing this.
Jess

[alegna]

Go all mama bear on his @ss and just say no.



-Angela

[Galatea]

Yes, having a metal poker shoved between your clitoris and its hood, scraped around the inside, then slitting the hood down and cutting it off, and then you can have your bare nerve-filled clitoris exposed to fabric and urine and feces.

[imgr8ful]

thanks kira for all those links, i will try to go through them and pick out the least biased ones - i had him read part of the mothering article (the case...) and he just says it's scare tactics - his response to all the effects of circ are - well, i'm circ'd and my penis is just fine.

a couple people suggested having him watch the videos - unfortunately this doesn't work for him - i did insist that he be with ds for the procedure, so he's seen it and still thinks it should be done.

[bleurae]

Kelly,
I am sorry your partner is this way. That must suck. I think the truth is, though, that if your husband had a missing finger you would NEVER allow someone to cut a baby's finger off as well to be like the father. No matter how much he insisted you would never allow it. So it becomes an ultimate question of what you truly believe. It IS the same thing. There is no difference. So no matter what he says or thinks is not really the issue ultimately, it is if you see it as the same or not.
I am not saying it is easy but once someone knows the facts and the truth, allowing it to happen is just no longer an option. Sadly, until more mothers come to this conclusion, we will continue to have this nightmare of violent abuse on our hands.
I wish you all the strength and power that only a mother can posess.

[eightyferrettoes]

If he's not bothered by watching a circ, you may just need to flat-out refuse. It's your son's penis, and your son's choice. Not your husband's.

Do some more reading, mama. Your heart is telling you the right thing, and you don't need your husband's permission to protect your new baby.

[bleurae]

I also wanted to add that if you really take a stand on this, and refuse, and let him know you are dead serious and that under no circumstances will you allow this, he may argue and whatnot, but when he sees you truly mean it, he may realize that if it is this important to you than he must respect you enough to back down. Any partner who loves and respects their spouse will take note if something is truly, deeply, important to their partner.

[Quirky]

Originally Posted by imgr8ful

his response to all the effects of circ are - well, i'm circ'd and my penis is just fine.

This is the heart of the problem, right here. Your dh wants to circ your son because he cannot admit he might be missing something, that his sex life isn't all it can and should be because his parents decided to have him circed. It isn't about your son, it's about your dh.

As a PP said, you would not allow your dh to replicate any other physical defect he might have - if your dh had lost an eye, or a finger, or a toe, or an arm, or ANY OTHER body part, you would never allow cosmetic surgery on your ds to make him "match." Plenty of people lead happy, productive lives whether they're deaf, or in a wheelchair, or whatever - that doesn't mean you'd allow your husband to make your son deaf, or paraplegic, to match him.

But of course you can't say to your dh "you're physically defective" - no man wants to hear that. It's a hard line to walk, but you have to find the line betweeen "I love you just the way you are, honey" and "I will not allow you to cut part of our son's penis off. It will happen over my dead body."

This is for you, not your dh, to read: http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

If push comes to shove, you absolutely have the right to refuse circ for your son. If your dh gets one vote and you get one vote and you're opposed to each other, then stalemate - your son can decide for himself when he is an adult whether he wants to be circed. Just make sure the hospital knows you do not consent to circ and will sue anyone who cuts your son without your permission.

[alegna]

It's sounding like you might just have to put your foot down. Put the research on HIM- ask him to PROVE why you should chop off a hunk of your child's penis. The refute anything that he actually comes up with (most guys won't bother to research)

good luck!

-Angela

[feebeeglee]

OK, I agree with the previous posters - just say no. There aren't any other parts of a kid you'd let him cut off for his own comfort, after all.

To help pad that unyielding wall of maternal certainty, here are some statistics:

I have gathered that you may be in Alaska, so I thought it might be likely that your kids could find potential mates and peers in Canada. In Canada the rate for neonatal male circumcision is somewhere between 17% and 11%. Here are some Canadian statistics.

For the U.S.: Alaska is in the Western region, which has the lowest rate nationwide, at about 29% of boys circumcised. Here are some U.S. statistics.

Here is a link to a search in this forum for the word 'brothers'. (just in case that link doesn't work) It has lots of hits for threads from mamas discussing just this issue.

Good luck! Stand firm! You rock!

[TigerTail]

regarding walking that fine line; if it comes down to my dh getting his feelings hurt or my ds's getting their genitals mutilated, well, someone here is supposed to be the grownup.

if my dh had an amputated limb, i'd still assure him that i'd love & accept his stump, but that doesn't require chopping off my newborn's leg to match. if amputee dad insisted that that meant i was saying there was something less perfect about *him*, than amputee dad would just have to deal with it, as grownups have to do with sometimes painful truths.

with a man that has watched it done & is volunteering to do so again (and see? that is why my advice is still 'no'; not 'if you watch', 'if you change the diaper', 'if you can come up with convincing arguments'- there will always be dads willing to fulfill all the above requirements) just-say- 'NO.' there is no rebuttal, no argument to 'NO'.

susan

[imgr8ful]

updated first post! thanks!

[Quirky]

Yay! Great news!

As far as the difference between your first ds and your second - there's a quotation from Maya Angelou that gets used a lot round here - "I did then what I knew how to do. When you know better, you do better." You made the best decision you could at the time with the information you had, and all you can do when the subject comes up is tell your first son you made the best decision you could, if you had to do it over again you would do it differently, and you're sorry.