What do you think of "time out?"

[I Fly]

I'm not really a fan of time outs, and don't use them, but I can't really articulate why very well. Except that a time out is punishment, and I lean more towards consequences. Anyway, my dh has gotten upset with ds#1 a number of times in the kitchen when ds#1 is helping (with hot things, knives, or raw meat - which is why dh gets so frustrated if he "won't listen"), and has started to grumble about instituting a time out for not listening. I feel like I should start doing some homework.

Also, time outs seem very popular with SO many parents. Do you use them? Why or why not?

[Piglet68]

I don't use them because children learn nothing in isolation. They need parents to guide them, and they need them the most precisely when they are "not listening" and getting out of control. Time outs are also a withdrawal of "love", your presence, and I don't want to use my attachment as a weapon. During timeout, a child seems more likely (to me) to focus on the resentment behind being forced by a bigger person to do something against his will, rather than to "sit and think about what you did" as many parents seem to naively believe they will. Finally, it IS punishment and we don't use punishment to discipline so it's out for that reason, too.

[annab]

No, we don't use punishments. Would your DH like it if he got put in time out every time he didn't listen? Probably not. It just does not seem fair to punish someone for exercising a valid option. Also, I just looked at his age. He is way too young to expect him to listen and obey, although I don't think obedience is a useful goal. In the instance that you described, keeping little hands busy is for more loving than punishing him for being curious. He probably wants to know what those things feel like. You might suggest that DH help him explore under close supervision, then wash his hands after handling meat.

Check out these threads for more:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=327748
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=323834
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=325145
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=329343

[Jenne]

There are VERY few effective uses of "time out". I much more a fan of "time in" in that when a child is showing via behavior that they can't handle what is going on I will be a closer presence. This may mean bending down and getting to a child level and taking their hands in mine to give an instruction or have a discussion. Or holding them and comforting them during a tantrum. The effective uses of "time out" are more in terms of age appropriate social behaviors. For instance a 4 y.o. is old enough to understand that if there are other people in the living room talking that screaming and running around in circles like a banshee is not appropriate. After a down to eye level warning about using an inside voice and appropriate living room play the child chooses to continue to behave in this way. Redirection to another room or activity are given as choices with the warning repeated. Finally, the child is warned that if the behavior continues he/she will have to leave the room. The child chooses to continue and so is taken out of the room and told that he/she can return to the room when he/she chooses to use an inside voice and inside play. I have seen this used very well and it makes sense to me. If you choose (and I believe that the choice part is key...there is a big difference imo between a tantrum from meltdown due to being tired (not a choice in this case just a reaction to emotion) and screaming at the top of your lungs in someones face just because it amuses you (a choice because you could scream in the other room or outside or in the bathtub or into a pillow or...) behave in a way that is anti-social the consequence is people don't want to be around you.

Bottom line--time out for not listening is not going to make ds listen no matter how much DH wants it to. There are better ways! Don't want to derail your thread posting ideas though...

Jenne

[wildmonkeys]

I don't like them either (though some parents use them INSTEAD of spanking and I do prefer them to spanking)

We don't call it a timeout but my younger ds seems to get really angry and do this sort of crazy lashing out thing (he has hit & scratched his big brother, his dog, and me a few times) When he does this I pick him up and take him to a different room and tell him that he can rejoin his brother/dog when he is calmed down and ready to be gentle....it is still a timeout if I stay??? I have only used it a few times and he has rejoined brother/dog in just a couple of minutes with a hug and "nice" play each time.

BJ
Barney & Ben

[writermommy]

Originally Posted by Jenne

There are VERY few effective uses of "time out". I much more a fan of "time in" in that when a child is showing via behavior that they can't handle what is going on I will be a closer presence. This may mean bending down and getting to a child level and taking their hands in mine to give an instruction or have a discussion. Or holding them and comforting them during a tantrum. The effective uses of "time out" are more in terms of age appropriate social behaviors. For instance a 4 y.o. is old enough to understand that if there are other people in the living room talking that screaming and running around in circles like a banshee is not appropriate. After a down to eye level warning about using an inside voice and appropriate living room play the child chooses to continue to behave in this way. Redirection to another room or activity are given as choices with the warning repeated. Finally, the child is warned that if the behavior continues he/she will have to leave the room. The child chooses to continue and so is taken out of the room and told that he/she can return to the room when he/she chooses to use an inside voice and inside play. I have seen this used very well and it makes sense to me. If you choose (and I believe that the choice part is key...there is a big difference imo between a tantrum from meltdown due to being tired (not a choice in this case just a reaction to emotion) and screaming at the top of your lungs in someones face just because it amuses you (a choice because you could scream in the other room or outside or in the bathtub or into a pillow or...) behave in a way that is anti-social the consequence is people don't want to be around you.

Bottom line--time out for not listening is not going to make ds listen no matter how much DH wants it to. There are better ways! Don't want to derail your thread posting ideas though...

Jenne

We do "time ins" too, when there is a tantrum or other situation where dd needs time to calm down. She feels comforted and calms down much faster than she would if I left her alone. We usually sit in the rocking chair with dd on my lap.

[Leilalu]

The only excuse I can think of for a time-out is physical violence. This is what we do. And it isn't timeout like most think, or do. It is a physical seperation so that dd can be protected from herself, and ds is protected from her. I talk with her, explain why she was temporarily separated from him, etc etc.I think sometimes, it is nessecary to remove the child from the situation, either through a location change-like the next room, or just holding them-but always talking and explaining, and listening.

[lioralourie]

i've known families where timeouts were equivalent to punishment. The child clearly felt punished.

I agree with a pp about timeouts being useful (only) when there's a true crisis and the child/parent are escalating to violence if someone doesn't disengage.

IMO setting limits and boundaries like "you may come back in the bedroom when you are able to use your inside voice" like Jenne describes isn't a true timeout.

I like the "time-in" description--never had a name for it before!--at least for my toddler it works wonders.

[fire_lady]

I think using time outs defends on the age of your child. If you will used time outs for your little ones they may not understand the situation. It would be more helpful to talk to your child about the things he does if it has good or bad effect to him and to the people around him.

[LoveBeads]

My reason for not using them is simple: they don't work. I have tried them and they have been completely ineffective.

ETA: when I say I have "tried them", I really am talking about removing my child from a situation and sitting with her to cool down, not isolating her. I say they aren't effective because it doesn't necessarily stop the behavior although it has kept me from losing my temper.

[IncaMama]

i've taken us BOTH to a different place for a time out TOGETHER if he's getting into things he shouldn't...but i'd never just put him somewhere and walk away. i don't really see the value in that for DS...i don't think he'd learn anything other than the notion that when i'm unhappy with him i leave him. i don't want him to learn that. i go with him to another place where the temptation isn't as strong and find something else to do. he only usually gets physically aggressive when he can't have a toy, etc...so i just leave the room with him and find something else he can do until he's chilled out a bit. i explain that i understand why he's upset, that i'm sorry he can't have the toy, but we can find something better to do with our hands or feet.

time out probably works in some sense...eliminates certain behaviors...but i think that sometimes it can teach a lesson that i don't want to teach my DS.

[mammastar2]

I think helping kids to recognize when they need to chill out away from a troublesome situation for a while is healthy, and my daughter now knows when she needs some 'privacy' because she's going to blow otherwise. And if she's being really unpleasant or not acting safely in a space, she may be told she needs to remove herself until she can handle it better. I don't consider that 'time out', though, and it is still consequence-driven.

Time outs the way they're normally used are lazy, in my view. I've seen parents and caregivers at playgroups doling them out for everything like they're going out of style, with no rational connection to behaviour and no attempt to guide or explain. The kids are just confused and resentful, and 'take it' like any other punishment.

In a group situation or in a family with more than one child, it also involves a lot of singling out one child as not belonging - and kids do perceive this as the other one getting punished, and show all the usual undesirable behaviours that come with this - being happy someone else got punished instead of them, tagging the other kid (or themselves) as the 'bad' one...

[I Fly]

Thanks for all of the good responses. I agree, that time outs don't seem to teach anything useful, and that they are usually punishments. What do you do when you don't have time to put all your attention to the kiddo, and need them to listen? Ds#1 cooks every night with dh. It is something ds#1 loves to do, and is very enthusiastic about. It also gives me a break for him to be busy in the kitchen with papa. I think that over time, dh will become more adept at seeing problem situations before they happen and/or diverting the attention of young kids from things they shouldn't be into. I wish he had more GD tools in his belt. I think we just need to sit down and discuss GD and our family and how I feel about time outs. I think, also, that he is expecting too much from a 2.5yo, which I've told him before.

[johub]

He is still pretty little. Can he sit in his high chair right next to daddy with an assortment of tools to help?

[Teensy]

I do use timeouts. I do not have a philosphical problem with them. They may be punishment, but I believe some behaviors do warrant punishing, so that doesn't bother me. DS #1 knows that certain behaviors are unacceptable - he could explain the rules to you and explain the reasons behind the rules. They doesn't mean that he isn't going to break those rules at times. So when he does, he goes to time out.

Do they work magic? No. But neither does any other method I have tried.

One reason I do like time outs - if DS #1 has acted against his brother, it allows the brother to see that the behavior is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. For example, if younger brother builds a tall tower with blocks and older brother knocks it down. What would work better? DS #1 can't repair the damage - the fun was the building and the pride taken by DS #2 in building a high tower. Take DS#1 aside and cuddle him? Give him an explaination of why he shouldn't knock over the blocks? He's not stupid - he knows. So DS #1 goes to time-out and DS#2 gets my attention while he rebuilds his tower.

It's not perfect, but neither are my children or myself.

(BTW - if I destroyed someone's property, I would get a timeout - called jail)

One of the things I love about MDC is reading the wide variety of parenting ideals.

[annab]

[QUOTE=Teensy]Do they work magic? No. But neither does any other method I have tried.

One reason I do like time outs - if DS #1 has acted against his brother, it allows the brother to see that the behavior is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. For example, if younger brother builds a tall tower with blocks and older brother knocks it down. What would work better? DS #1 can't repair the damage - the fun was the building and the pride taken by DS #2 in building a high tower. Take DS#1 aside and cuddle him? Give him an explaination of why he shouldn't knock over the blocks? He's not stupid - he knows. So DS #1 goes to time-out and DS#2 gets my attention while he rebuilds his tower.

(BTW - if I destroyed someone's property, I would get a timeout - called jail)[QUOTE]

I don't think that anything is supposed to be magic. I think that when parents start looking for shortcuts and quick fixes (not you, but in general) is when they do their least effective parenting.

In the block example, it would be more important for me to find out why he wanted to knock the blocks down than to punish him for doing it. Of course he knows it is 'wrong', so why did he feel so strongly about doing it anyway. Also, I think that giving an explanation is a perfect example of what you should do. I would take the opportunity to learn about empathy and how his actions affect others.

I used to think like you did about preparing children for the world through punishment. The criminal justice system is designed solely for the purpose of punishment. My job as a parent is so much more than that. There really is no comparison. I try to make our home a refuge from the rest of the world, not a reflection of it. Your children will know that there are legal consequences to their actions even if you never punish them.

[irinam]

Originally Posted by Teensy

Do they work magic? No. But neither does any other method I have tried.

I agree. That is why I quit trying to "make it work" and just concentrate on respectful and nurturing environment in my family.

The behaviours that are unwanted are adressed and discussed with the older DS and recently even with the younger DD.

When DD was smaller I would remove the causes for the unwanted behaviour - be it playing with sharp objects or lack of sleep, low blood sugar, you name it.

We behave the way we do not because of fear of being put in jail, but because it's the right thing to do.

[celrae]

My thought on this is that there are a lot of tools and time out is just one of many. It can be effective but, needs to be used with thought and in moderation otherwise it is not effective. My rules for GD is that DH and I need to both agree on the tactic and both be willing to follow though with what we decide. I have found that the needs of my DD's have changed over time. At 1 year we used a lot redirection, then at 2 they needed very firm consistent consequences, after a couple of months we were able to use simple verbal redirection, now at 3 1/2 we are back to firm consequence. I give them options all the time and let them choose many things but, at times they have to listen without options.

The situation that you presented seems like it would be better to redirect or teach safety though verbal explanation and supervised experimentation. Wish you luck GD has been one of the hardest things I've had do as a parent but, it is very necessary.

Side note:
I have been fortunate to get good advice from family and friends who know my DD's well and what I am trying to accomplish. Yesterday a good friend witnessed one of my DDs having a major tantrum and I didn't handle it well. Failing in front of a good friend was positive for me because I realized that DD had been pushing limits for awhile and I needed to figure out a better way to handle the behavior. I called my friend this morning with a solution to the meltdowns and she was so supportive. She said that she knew I would figure out a better way to deal with DD, wow, she had more confidence in my mothering skills than I did. Have confidence that what you are doing is right for the whole family.

[mammastar2]

The 'jail' example is actually really thought-provoking. I suppose it crystallizes a lot of what I'm uncomfortable with around time-outs as a strategy. After all, isn't our society full of people who know very well that the criminal penalty for this or that behaviour is time in jail, but who do it anyway? Who may have been to jail and not liked it, and yet who do the same thing again when they get out? There's so much thinking being done these days about how to fix our really terribly broken justice system - I think that rather than preparing my kids for those kinds of 'real-world' consequences, I'd rather get them internalizing how to correct their own behaviour, gain self-awareness, verbalize, and fix things in their environment that aren't working for them - maybe one day this will have given them the kind of insights that are needed to fix the 'real-world' justice system.

...or maybe one day my 3 year old will just stop bugging the cat. That's a good goal too.