What consequences do you use for teen? - Page 6

[UUMom]

The thing is, one can often easily scoop a toddler out of harms way in a parking lot. That is GD. GD doesn't mean 'stand there and let the natural consequence of getting run over by a bus teach the child about not running off'. If you see that as GD, you're mistaken.

The teen bound and determined to walk the streets at night in dangerous areas is another issue. A self -destructive teen isn't one that can be easily scooped out of harm's way.

The toodler and teen have different reasons for their behavior. They are not comparable.

[sweetpea333]

oh my parents did everything besides yelling and punishment, they sent me to counselling, really tried to make us a family by spending time together, talking ect... so dont try and say my my parents weren't gd, because it didnt work... what would you do if nothing was working, then???

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by sweetpea333

oh my parents did everything besides yelling and punishment, they sent me to counselling, really tried to make us a family by spending time together, talking ect... so dont try and say my my parents weren't gd, because it didnt work... what would you do if nothing was working, then???

I am very confused. Are you sure you did all of this simply because it was 'fun'?

It sounds like you all had a terrible time.

I am not sure what i would do if my children were in the sort of pain you were...but I know it would not involve punishment. Punishment doesn't lead to self-respect. I don't see how self-destructive behavior could be stopped with punishment.

I am trying to understand...why do you think grounding you would have changed your behavior? Did they ever ask you to stay home? To not sleep with a lot of boys? You say you engaged in these behaviors because it was fun--perhaps trying to thwart groundings etc would have also been fun? Why do you feel that punsihment would have changed your behavior?

[nonconformnmom]

Uumom wrote: Punishment equals shame for me.

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear in what I was asking. Can you define the word, "shame" for me as it applies to GD?

For example, I can say, "red equals color" and while true, it doesn't tell me anything about "color".

Shame is a very subjective emotion. Some feel shame in situations that others do not. And some have no shame. Only the person experiencing a given situation can say whether or not it feels 'shaming' for them.

For example, when my 3 year old wets her pants in public, it doesn't phase her one bit. She goes on playing happily, wet pants and all. If my teen wets her pants in public, I am fairly confident she would say that she felt shame (the dictionary defines shame as feeling embarrassed, disgraced).

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by nonconformnmom

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear in what I was asking. Can you define the word, "shame" for me as it applies to GD?

For example, I can say, "red equals color" and while true, it doesn't tell me anything about "color".

Shame is a very subjective emotion. Some feel shame in situations that others do not. And some have no shame. Only the person experiencing a given situation can say whether or not it feels 'shaming' for them.

For example, when my 3 year old wets her pants in public, it doesn't phase her one bit. She goes on playing happily, wet pants and all. If my teen wets her pants in public, I am fairly confident she would say that she felt shame (the dictionary defines shame as feeling embarrassed, disgraced).

Shame here is a feeling of unworth, of unworthy-ness. Can you think of a time when someone with greater power tried to manipulate you with that power? Or embarrassed you for their own gain? That's what i am talking about here.

[sunnysideup]

oh my parents did everything besides yelling and punishment, they sent me to counselling, really tried to make us a family by spending time together, talking ect... so dont try and say my my parents weren't gd, because it didnt work... what would you do if nothing was working, then???

From your posts it sounds like you regret a lot of the choices you made as a teen. It also sounds like your parents tried to help you, but for whatever reason they were not able to. Probably there was something more that could have been done, and it's easy to say Punishment would have been the answer because that is the conventional way problems such as this are handled. To me it seems like a person that is engaged in self-destructive behavior has little respect for him/herself. I doubt that punishment is a good way to help someone learn self respect.

[allgirls]

Originally Posted by UUMom

Shame here is a feeling of unworth, of unworthy-ness. Can you think of a time when someone with greater power tried to manipulate you with that power? Or embarrassed you for their own gain? That's what i am talking about here.

Consequences don't automatically bring shame. My daughter makes dangerous choices...when something goes wrong the shame is all her own..she knows what's right and wrong, what's a wise decision and what's not but in the moment she doesn't care...then when it goes wrong I don't need to shame her, she feels it all on her own.

But I do impose consequences to her actions...curfew, call from where you are, only to stay with certain friends etc. etc. I have had to for her safety...and I have told her it's for her safety and as she proves she is making safer, wiser decisions or is mature enough to deal with the decisions she makes then the rules will be in place. Nothing I do her is for my own gain, it's all for her gain...

I will ask her though...if her curfew shames her...just to be sure...or if her actions that caused the curfew to be imposed shames her.

[johub]

when someone with greater power tried to manipulate you with that power?

I think it is the natural state of affairs for parents to have power over their children and to use that power to help protect and teach their children.
I think that to be GD is to be a good steward of that power and to use it wisely, and only for the good of the child. (to teach, not to take out parental emotions)
I do not think that in order to be kind and respectful to our children we need to deny this power and refuse to use it.
I do not think it is shame to a child to have a parent have power over them. It is just the natural course of events. It is no more shameful to be shorter, taller or have a different color of hair.
Eventually as children grow they take on a greater share of this power until eventually they have 100%.

Joline

[nonconformnmom]

Allgirls, I like the way you explained it. That makes a lot of sense to me. To use another example as to how *I* remember feeling about the way my parents handled things -- say I used my mom's car and didn't get it back to her at the time she told me to have it back. My mom could have handled it by using consequences (call it "logical" or "Imposed" it really doesn't matter to me), or by talking with me and telling me how my actions impacted her.

Consequences: "Karyn, you didn't bring the car back when you said you would. Tomorrow, you won't be able to use the car to go shopping with your friends. You may use the car again starting on Sunday."

Talking: "Karyn, I allowed you to use my car yesterday and you didn't return it when you said you would. I felt disappointed and stresed because I couldn't make it to my meeting on time. Everyone had to wait for me to get there on the bus and they were not happy with me. Please try to get the car back on time in the future."

Now, this is just talking about *me* and how *I* would feel ... but honestly, I would feel more shame and embarrassment at the conversation approach than I would have with the consequences approach. To me, the consequences are something that I would have anticipated as a result of my abusing the privilege of using my mom's car. I would have weighed that possibility ("mom usually restricts me whenever I bring her car back late, but I really need to stay out late today so I'll take the risk") and made the decision for myself to take the consequences.

However, having my mom sit me down and tell me that she was disappointed and it made her late and everyone was waiting and she had to take the bus ... well, that would have caused me to feel embarrassed, disgraced, unworthy.

The results might very well be reversed for other people. But that is how it feels for me. That is my point about the feeling of shame being extremely subjective and individually determined. As parents, it is our responsibility to know and respect our children enough to understand what their triggers are and to avoid putting them in situations in which they feel belittled or unworthy. How you (the collective 'you') do that for your child is different than how I do it for mine, because every child is unique.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by allgirls

Consequences don't automatically bring shame. My daughter makes dangerous choices...when something goes wrong the shame is all her own..she knows what's right and wrong, what's a wise decision and what's not but in the moment she doesn't care...then when it goes wrong I don't need to shame her, she feels it all on her own.

But I do impose consequences to her actions...curfew, call from where you are, only to stay with certain friends etc. etc. I have had to for her safety...and I have told her it's for her safety and as she proves she is making safer, wiser decisions or is mature enough to deal with the decisions she makes then the rules will be in place. Nothing I do her is for my own gain, it's all for her gain...

I will ask her though...if her curfew shames her...just to be sure...or if her actions that caused the curfew to be imposed shames her.

I am not sure a curfew falls under my definition of shaming...I see a curfew more of a safety issue, perhaps. In some towns teens aren't allowed to be out, or driving past certain hours. I would see a that curfew as more protective.

I am also not seeing a curfew or a call home as a consequence. These are agreed on issues that I see as parents and teens working on together to mutual need. Calling is something down out of respect for a parent's worries about whether a child is safe, it's not a consequence of anything. if she calls to tell you she is in a safe place, you gain as well, in emotional peace.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by johub

I think it is the natural state of affairs for parents to have power over their children and to use that power to help protect and teach their children.
I think that to be GD is to be a good steward of that power and to use it wisely, and only for the good of the child. (to teach, not to take out parental emotions)
I do not think that in order to be kind and respectful to our children we need to deny this power and refuse to use it.
I do not think it is shame to a child to have a parent have power over them. It is just the natural course of events. It is no more shameful to be shorter, taller or have a different color of hair.
Eventually as children grow they take on a greater share of this power until eventually they have 100%.

Joline

I think it matters whether we use our power for good or for evil .

[nonconformnmom]

Uumom - Now you are talking about intent. The same thing I brought up in post #38 and you objected to in #39 ....

[sunnysideup]

Consequences: "Karyn, you didn't bring the car back when you said you would. Tomorrow, you won't be able to use the car to go shopping with your friends. You may use the car again starting on Sunday."

Talking: "Karyn, I allowed you to use my car yesterday and you didn't return it when you said you would. I felt disappointed and stresed because I couldn't make it to my meeting on time. Everyone had to wait for me to get there on the bus and they were not happy with me. Please try to get the car back on time in the future."

Neither of these examples really seems to solve the problem very well. You said yourself that

the consequences are something that I would have anticipated as a result of my abusing the privilege of using my mom's car. I would have weighed that possibility ("mom usually restricts me whenever I bring her car back late, but I really need to stay out late today so I'll take the risk") and made the decision for myself to take the consequences.

So the consequences don't solve the problem (the problem being: I need to have my car when I have to get to an apointment). In the second example you only ask that Karyn "try to get the car back on time in the future." I don't think that would be good enough.

How about-- "Karyn, I was really in a bind when I didn't have the car back in time to make it to my meeting. What can we do to make sure that doesn't happen again?" and then mom and daughter sit down and brainstorm ideas together. Maybe Karyn could use a cell phone or a pager so that she could get a reminder if she's running late? Maybe Karyn should use public transportation or a friend could drive if there is a potential confict with the car?

[nonconformnmom]

Momoffour wrote: Neither of these examples really seems to solve the problem very well.

Yes, you're right. I guess it depends on what 'problem' one is trying to solve. Is it having the car returned on time, every time? Or is the 'problem' really that of helping your child be equipped with the ability to make reasoned judgments and informed choices?

To me, consequences (used sparingly and judiciously with the appropriate age groups) allow children to know that 'if I do _____; then ______ will happen.' Which then leads them to the thought process of 'I don't want _____ to happen; therefore I won't do ______.' or alternatively, 'I can accept _____ because I really want to do _______ even though I know I'm not supposed to.' Result: control lies with the child.

As opposed to: 'If I do ______; then mom or dad will talk to me and try to help me figure out what to do so I won't keep doing it or so that we can lessen the impact on my family,' etc. The second approach, for some children, may make them feel as if they must be incapable of making their own decisions or taking control of their own behavior. They need mom or dad to help them figure out how to handle it. When they are away at college, now what? Mom and Dad aren't there to help them solve the problem.

[sweetpea333]

Originally Posted by nonconformnmom

Yes, you're right. I guess it depends on what 'problem' one is trying to solve. Is it having the car returned on time, every time? Or is the 'problem' really that of helping your child be equipped with the ability to make reasoned judgments and informed choices?

To me, consequences (used sparingly and judiciously with the appropriate age groups) allow children to know that 'if I do _____; then ______ will happen.' Which then leads them to the thought process of 'I don't want _____ to happen; therefore I won't do ______.' or alternatively, 'I can accept _____ because I really want to do _______ even though I know I'm not supposed to.' Result: control lies with the child.

As opposed to: 'If I do ______; then mom or dad will talk to me and try to help me figure out what to do so I won't keep doing it or so that we can lessen the impact on my family,' etc. The second approach, for some children, may make them feel as if they must be incapable of making their own decisions or taking control of their own behavior. They need mom or dad to help them figure out how to handle it. When they are away at college, now what? Mom and Dad aren't there to help them solve the problem.

couldn't have said it better myself..

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by nonconformnmom

Uumom - Now you are talking about intent. The same thing I brought up in post #38 and you objected to in #39 ....

Not at all. My position is that punishment has no place in GD. Intent matters not when we harm our children through punishment. Some parents abuse their power. Esp where punishment used.

[sweetpea333]

do you really believe that that using the gd method but also, adding some light consequences when appropriate, will harm them??? well then you have alot to learn about teenagers. get your nose out of the parenting books and look at real life and not a "textbook teenager". their not made of glass, you know.

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by nonconformnmom

When they are away at college, now what? Mom and Dad aren't there to help them solve the problem.

Well hopefully they'll have many years of practicing problem solving under their belt and will, thus, be equipped to handle situations at college, too.

If a situation arises that they don't know how to handle, there is no shame in calling on the mother and father for advice, right? Or another adult, professor, dorm mother, residence assistant.

I think the evidence of punished and controlled kids NOT knowing how to make good decisions on their own is glaringly obvious in college freshmen and thier behavior.

[sweetpea333]

I think the evidence of punished and controlled kids NOT knowing how to make good decisions on their own is glaringly obvious in college freshmen and thier behavior.[/QUOTE]

how do you know how they were raised, and also how do you explain all the kids who are well behaved?? are saying the bad kids must have had punishment in their life and all the good kids were raised gd method

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by sweetpea333

do you really believe that that using the gd method but also, adding some light consequences when appropriate, will harm them??? well then you have alot to learn about teenagers. get your nose out of the parenting books and look at real life and not a "textbook teenager". their not made of glass, you know.

Are you addressing me, sweetpea? If so, I don't see 'consequences' and 'punishment' as being the same. Why do you see that GD is without consequences. I mentioned it earlier, but I don't think you have a clear understanding of GD.

I have a 16 yr old and a 13 yr old. I mentioned that several posts ago. I am right in the trenches of teen life. I am not sure you are actually reading my posts, or anyone else who is not completely agreeing with you. Although I am not sure what your postion on GD is and i am not disagreeing or agreeing with you. I am enjoying this discussion greatly and am genuienly trying to understand what you are saying.

You're quite aggressive in wanting to condone punishment, or come up with 'good' reasons for punishment, and i am not understanding why that is, or what your motivation might be. Do you feel let down by your parents, somehow?