A mother told me a horrendous story yesterday...*UPDATE* - Page 2

[Daisyuk]

Money talks.

How much for the circ and then recirc, and then all the problems caused by the recirc?

The doctors and surgeons will be making money out of this for years to come.

I hope that child sues the lot of them when he grows up.

[Frankly Speaking]

Something just struck me!

In all of my time here, we have not had a single necessary circumcision yet we have heard of at least a dozen boys that were circumcised the second time. It appears that the myth of "necessary" later circumcisions is far more true for boys already circumcised than for intact boys.



Frank

[Past_VNE]

What an interesting, and VERY TRUE, observation, Frank. Wow!!!

[LandonsMom]

Originally Posted by lilsishomemade

...well, what a shock, they don't completely remove the foreskin anymore, so they *still* don't look like him....

Is this true?

I am embarassed to say that i didnt know anything about this topic before ds arrived. (well i still dont know much) Heck it didnt even occur to me that he would "need" one until about 2 or 3 weeks before he was born. : However, about a week or two after he healed (b/c of course not knowing anything, i just did the norm ) what was left of his foreskin started to come back down over the head. I thought it was weird. My mom said it was normal. I wondered if we got a so-called botched job but didnt bring it up to the ped b/c i didnt want to put him through anything else. I feel pretty guilty about agreeing to the circ w/out having even read about it.

So a normal circ, when healed, does allow the foreskin to come back down? Whats the point of doing one at all?

I brought the whole topic up once to dh for future children, and he was like, yes...any boy we have will be circed...hopefully i can turn him around though.

[candiland]

Doctors are now realizing that the old-school "radical" circumcisions - ya know, the foreskin is totally removed and cannot possibly come down over the head - caused and are causing a variety of complications, including very tight and painful erections as an adult. You never know how much foreskin to take off, so it's a guessing game and you just have to pray you guess right.

So now they're doing looser circumcisions - which sounds like it solves the problem. However, it causes all sorts of OTHER complications. Think of having a big cut on your leg. The body tries to heal itself and reattach the skin to mend the wound. Now imagine if every time your body tried to heal, going to the doctor and having the cut ripped open repeatedly until it forms a permanent scar. That's what's happening now. The foreskin tries to readhere to the head - the body is trying to heal the unnatural wound. This isn't a problem and should be left to separate naturally, just like you'd let an intact penis retract and separate naturally. However, peds. and parents are repeatedly forcibly ripping the foreskin off the head. This causes the infant massive amounts of pain and psychological trauma.

So many schedule surgery a SECOND time to correct the "problem". It's not a problem at all if nature is left to take its course, but many parents and doctors are still totally uneducated on the fact that if the circumcision "fails" and the foreskin reattaches, you just need to leave it alone and let the body do what it needs to do.

[susienjay]

Originally Posted by LandonsMom

So a normal circ, when healed, does allow the foreskin to come back down? Whats the point of doing one at all?

I brought the whole topic up once to dh for future children, and he was like, yes...any boy we have will be circed...hopefully i can turn him around though.

I'm sure someone else could answer this better. In a baby I think it is normal for the foreskin to try to readhere to the head of the penis. I occasionally babysat a circed boy and as a baby he had a bit that reattached to the head but by the time he was almost 3 he had "grown into the circ" I guess you could say and it looked like a pretty typical circed penis. I would just leave it alone because it will separate and retract in it's own time. My son is intact and his foreskin extends at least 1/2" past the end of his glans. I've still never seen his urethral opening. It seems to be slowly shortening over time.

My twins were premature and while we were in NICU I frequently heard doctors/nurses giving parents circ care instructions on the day of discharge for other baby boys. I heard one of the doctors tell the parents that it may not look like like there was enough taken off but their son would grow into it and he didn't want to remove too much. I'm guessing doctors are aware of some of the problems of removing too much skin (painful erections) so they are now removing less skin.

[Lula's Mom]

Originally Posted by LandonsMom

Whats the point of doing one at all?

I brought the whole topic up once to dh for future children, and he was like, yes...any boy we have will be circed...hopefully i can turn him around though.

The point of this whole forum is that there is no point in circumcising. There's no reason good enough to justify cutting healthy tissue off of baby boys! And now that you know the truth, you can protect your future sons, regardless. Start educating your dh now so there's not even a discussion when you have your next boy.

You might be interested in the stickies at the top of the forum, by mamas who regret circumcising their babies.

[LandonsMom]

I definatly have some more reading to do, Thanks for the info ladies

[daekini]

I have a friend who had a similar thing happen - her son had the plastibell circ which often results in a lot of foreskin remaining. She thought it was botched, when really it's a crap shoot with that type of circ (from what little I understand as explained by a ped friend of mine). She considered having it redone ("it should be free - I PAID for a circ and he didn't get it!") but then decided after seeing my son that it wasn't such a bad thing after all.

[wtchyhlr]

Oh Alison, I just snorted soda out my nose. That is Priceless.

[Mountain Chick]

LandonsMom,
See if your library has "What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Circumcision" by Dr. Paul M. Fleiss. It is such a good book and will answer most of your and your husbands questions. And Dr. Fleiss used to perform circumcisions before he learned the truth about them. The book also give the history about how circumcision became popular...very interesting...and disturbing...and disgusting. There are other books on the subject and websites to read too. Maybe if you get a full understanding of the subject, and had some printed material from a "Medical Doctor" to go through with your husband, he would change his mind about it.

Best of luck to you.

[Mountain Chick]

Here are some more titles to look for and if your lucky, your library may have some of them:

Say no to circumcision! : 40 compelling reasons why you should respect his birthright and keep your son whole by Thomas J. Ritter

Doctors Re-examine Circumcision by Thomas J. Ritter

Circumcision exposed : rethinking a medical and cultural tradition by Billy Ray Boyd

Circumcision : the painful dilemma by Rosemary Romberg.



Circumcision, The Hidden Trauma : How an American Cultural Practice Affects Infants and Ultimately Us All by Ronald Goldman

And for those of you with Jewish friends:

Questioning Circumcision: A Jewish Perspective by Ronald Goldman


And to any wife who is going to approach her circumcised husband with this kind of undeniable information, please consider that he may resist initially out of his own hurt and betrayal. Give him plenty of support and time to process and cope. And let him know there is possibly hope. Here are some books on the subject.

Sex as Nature Intended It: The Most Important Thing You Need to Know about Making Love, but No One Could Tell You Until Now by Kristen O'Hara

Decircumcision : Foreskin Restoration ,Methods and Circumcision Practices by Gary M. Griffin

[daekini]

I agree with the PP that you should support circumsized men who may have very personal feelings about the matter and cover it up with superficial arguments for having the procedure done on their sons. Tender words and imploring them to really look deeply at the repercussions of circ may have multiple effects... once we started really thinking about not circ'ing, my dh thought about his childhood and realized that a surgical procedure he had at 4 was actually done to repair a circ injury (this may be tmi, but he was told it was to "make his pee-hole bigger"). This really made an impact on our decision not to circ. Some men may have had complications from their circ and don't realize it til they start thinking about it - most of the time they don't give it a second thought.

[Frankly Speaking]

Alison, what your husband had was meatal stenosis that is exclusively a complication of circumcision. Most men would not remember even having the surgical correction at such a young age and many men who have fairly glaring complications of circumcision don't realize it. Unless we are gay, men don't have the opportunity to inspect other men's penises and know what a well performed circumcision should look like and minus that information, just assume what they have is normal. I even know of intact men that are so in the dark about what is normal that they think they are circumcised and are quite surprised to find that they are not. One of these men had his son circumcised to look like him. Obviously, he was quite surprised to learn that due to his decision, his son would not look like him unless he also had himself circumcised. He was quite clear that he would not be having the procedure. Suddenly, it was far less important that his son look like him!



Frank

[wackynaturelady]

How awful for that little one to go through such consistent torture at the beginning of his life. It's a twisted culture, when it comes to this.
This thread was really informative for me, though. My 1-month old is intact, but, unfortunately, I had my first ds circ'd 13 years ago. I always said the doctor 'didn't do a good job', because some of the foreskin still covered some of the glans. My son never had any unusual 'problems' with it, though. Funny thing is, now that I know about circ and have researched it, I have been grateful that my oldest had at least some foreskin and wouldn't have the tight-circ stuff. This thread is the first place I've read that they do this on purpose and it eases some of my pain and guilt for having ds circ'd. Doesn't help the pain he suffered or the rest of the foreskin he lost, but at least I know it could be worse.

[Bm31]

Hi everyone! I've lurked here for a while (joined at the suggestion of another member here that I "met" on another board), but I've never posted before. You are all such a wonderful, informed group of people I never felt there was anything I could add. But I always enjoyed checking in here to see there is still some sanity in this world, compared to the fear and ignorance I've come across on other circ discussion boards.

I have noticed, though, that a lot of people's dh's push to circ their sons and wanted to respond to daekini's post. You are so right! That's why I totally admire many of the mother's here that have fought their circ'd dh's on this issue. The idea that they have the penis doesn't make their opinion the end-all.

I know how easy it is to be brain-washed by the pro-circ culture here in the US. I was circ'd as an infant and it was re-done at age 6. It wasn't until I was 35 years old I put the whole story together and realized how unnecessary it all was. It wasn't until 2 years after that (thanks to internet research and resources like this board) I recalled another little in-office procedure the urologist (that did the re-circ...and badly botched it) did was for meatal stenosis....I now know was caused by the circ. I never thought my penis was just "fine" like most circ'd men who wouldn't know any different....next to no sensation left after all their meddling....besides the physical effects of the botch job. But I do know how easy it is to buy into the whole culture surrounding this practice. Until I fully understood what was done to me, I blindly thought circ was a must-do thing....and that I just had a defective penis that caused problems. I now realize it was the circ that caused the problems to begin with.

My hat's off to all the mothers here that stand by their sons, especially those that have to go that extra step of convincing the fathers.

[MrsMoe]

God - how disturbing

[njeb]

Originally Posted by Bm31

Hi everyone! I've lurked here for a while (joined at the suggestion of another member here that I "met" on another board), but I've never posted before. You are all such a wonderful, informed group of people I never felt there was anything I could add. But I always enjoyed checking in here to see there is still some sanity in this world, compared to the fear and ignorance I've come across on other circ discussion boards.

I have noticed, though, that a lot of people's dh's push to circ their sons and wanted to respond to daekini's post. You are so right! That's why I totally admire many of the mother's here that have fought their circ'd dh's on this issue. The idea that they have the penis doesn't make their opinion the end-all.

I know how easy it is to be brain-washed by the pro-circ culture here in the US. I was circ'd as an infant and it was re-done at age 6. It wasn't until I was 35 years old I put the whole story together and realized how unnecessary it all was. It wasn't until 2 years after that (thanks to internet research and resources like this board) I recalled another little in-office procedure the urologist (that did the re-circ...and badly botched it) did was for meatal stenosis....I now know was caused by the circ. I never thought my penis was just "fine" like most circ'd men who wouldn't know any different....next to no sensation left after all their meddling....besides the physical effects of the botch job. But I do know how easy it is to buy into the whole culture surrounding this practice. Until I fully understood what was done to me, I blindly thought circ was a must-do thing....and that I just had a defective penis that caused problems. I now realize it was the circ that caused the problems to begin with.

My hat's off to all the mothers here that stand by their sons, especially those that have to go that extra step of convincing the fathers.

Oh, Bm31!
Anyone who wants to have their ds circ'ed ought to read your post first. Maybe it would open their eyes. Thank you for posting.

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally Posted by Bm31

I recalled another little in-office procedure the urologist (that did the re-circ...and badly botched it) did was for meatal stenosis....I now know was caused by the circ.

I suspect there are many men out there that had the procedure and have never made the connection. As a matter of fact, I also suspect that there are many more complications and poorly done jobs that are not recognized because unless they are gay, men just don't have the opportunity to inspect other men's penises to know what is normal and what is botched. We have had many women here tell of men with botched penises. The women had the opportunity to inspect and compare and recognized the defective and poor workmanship and the men had no idea.

next to no sensation left after all their meddling....

You may want to look into foreskin restoration. It's a non-surgical process that can be done with no medical intervention at all and can restore a good bit of the natural sensitivity. With the lack of sensation you now have, you are at great risk of developing erectile dysfunction and impotence and foreskin restoration can push it back or eliminate it all together. This is something I have first hand experience with and can tell you without equivocation that it works and works well. I suspect your lover will also appreciate it as well.

I blindly thought circ was a must-do thing....

That's a common misconception. Many men your age and older were circumcised without parental consent and even often against the parents express wishes. In that environment, it was logical for them to assume that circumcision was an absolute "must do." Of course, those parents told other parents who told other parents and to this day, there are some in the older generations who believe that circumcision is not an option but a must do.

and that I just had a defective penis that caused problems. I now realize it was the circ that caused the problems to begin with.

I suspect there are legions of men just like you, blaming the problems on their own bodies instead of the medical profession that foisted this on us. However, we are awakening to the truth. One doctor has warned that this issue may make the largest class action suit to ever hit this country. Personally, I'd love to see it!



Frank

[Bm31]

Thanks njeb! I really admire you for respecting your sons genitals for both the time and place you were coming from. My mother doesn't remember giving explicit consent, just that it was pretty much assumed that you had to do it. Plus, we're practically neighbors; I live in IL on the border with Iowa and know how horribly it's still ingrained in people's minds in this area.

Frank, I totally agree with everthing you're saying. But as far as foreskin restoration goes, I don't think it would be possible for me. Without getting into too much detail, everything I've been able to piece together would suggest reconstructive surgery just to make enough shaft skin to have a "normal" circ'd penis....let alone finding enough extra for foreskin restoration. There's no way I'll give them a third shot at me. I don't have a lover; it's something I've learned to forgo in this lifetime. It's my only hope that parents will stop doing this to their sons. For all the ones that go "fine," it's going to be somebody else's son that eventually gets the botched job. Until this society gets over it's desire to meddle with their son's genitals, it WILL happen to others, and as far as I'm concerned everyone, medical community and otherwise, that promotes and perpetuates it will be responsible for it. I used to think....if only the dr. had done it "right" the first time. But I've come to realize how true your signature quote is. NOBODY had any right to make this "choice" about my body.