"Daddy's different!" Looking for psychological studies...

[earthmama06]

Recently I have educated myself about circumcision and have begun speaking with my dh about not circ'ing any future sons. His main concern and arguement is that it is psychologically detrimental for sons not to identify with their dads, brothers, and friends. I tried to reassure him that if we explain it properly they will understand and it won't be that big of an issue, but he wants more than my word (he's a very logical, scientific person).

Are there any studies / stories out there about children that grew up "different" than their fathers and peers? At what age do they begin to notice the difference? DH believes that ds has already begun to notice the similarities, even at 16 months. While I agree that he may be noticing the similarities already, I don't think that he would know that he's "different".

Any thoughts? Articles?

[Nathan1097]

I should let my ex reply this this himself, but basically my ex is circ'd and our sons are not and my ex's dad and uncle and grandfather are/were not. NEVER has the issue been brought up or mentioned by ANY of them! Its just not p.c. dinner conversation. :LOL Only thing that's been mentioned is my youngest, Noah, said something about how "big" his dad's is, but not that its missing skin or the like.

[Daisyuk]

From what I've seen on forums all over the net, the only difference that seems to get noticed is size and hair. Ask your husband if he's going to shave all his hair off, and keep his equipment in an ice pack to make it small.

Of course he could always restore, and then no-one would get anything cut off, they'd be the same by the time anything could get noticed.

[mamaofthree]

None of my son's are circ'd and all they notice is that dad is "so big" LOL.

H

[susienjay]

I'm not aware of any studies but my 23 yo brother is intact. My dad is circed. It was never ever an issue between them. I'm not sure at the age my brother found out the difference but I know he was aware of it and it has never mattered to him. When he was 12-13 my dad offered to pay for the surgery if my brother wanted it done to match him. He didn't. I really think the whole "matching" argument is more for the father than the son. This way the father doesn't have to look at what he's missing.

[Quirky]

My ds is intact, my dh is not. My ds is 3 and has never said word one about daddy's penis (although he certainly has a lot to say about his own! :LOL) My ds has also been around a circed friend (both are potty learning) and has not noticed a difference between his friend's penis and his own. I think the idea that children, esp. one as young as 16 months, can tell the difference between a cut and an intact penis is way off-base.

I also think your dh is using "science" and "logic" to construct a defensive mechanism to protect his own psyche from having to admit he's missing anything or that your circed sons might be missing anything. I would turn the tables - ask him to find one study that demonstrates it's important for father and son to have matching penises.

The burden should be on him to prove using science that your son should undergo genital-reduction cosmetic surgery that removes half his ergeneous tissue to avoid the alleged psychological consequences of not matching his father.

Also ask him what other cosmetic surgery a son should have to make him match his father. A nose job? Tattoos? Permanent contact lenses to give them the same eye color? Laser hair removal to match a dad's baldness pattern?

[dnr3301]

my brother is intact and the conversation when he asked what circ was (4ish, I think, he hadn't noticed a difference yet, or if he had, it just wasn't that big of a deal) went someting like this:

Bro: what's circumcision?
Mom: when some babies are born their parents cut off some skin off of thier penis. That's circ. You are not circ'ed, Dad is.
Bro (mouth open, turns to our dad):YOU LET YOUR MOTHER CUT OFF PART OF YOUR PENIS?!
Dad: I didn't really have much say in the matter.

That was it. Not psychologically damaging in the least. At least not for my brother.

[sleepies]

why are they looking at their dad's penis anyway.
that i'd think might be more harmful than helpful.


even when they are both circ' or both non circ' they arent' going to look the "same" anyway. adult penis/child penis aren't the same.

[paminmi]

I have never heard of any studies to this effect either.

What I would bring up to your dh is: What about all the circumcised men in this country who are different than their fathers? I mean, when circumcision began in the country (non-religious) it was on an intact population. Theoretically, if your husband were to be right, there should be a lot of 50 year old guys who need therapy because they DON'T have a foreskin, KWIM?

For example, my brother is circumcised, my father is not. My uncles were circumcised, my grandfather was not. Imagine all the men in this country who's fathers were intact. Imagine many-most of them not even having a clue there is anything different.

Earthmama, your husband is despirately trying to rationalize what was done to him.

Please read this article, it will help you understand.

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

Best wishes (and hold your ground, he'll come around eventually)

[Paddington]

my husband is circ'd, his father was not. my son is not. my dh only ever commented on how big dad was, he never noticed the skin. obviously at one point this happened, like with my husband, where there was the same thing in reverse, the parent wasn't, the child was. why didn't they think about the psychological impact then? but i digress....i think the important thing is to discuss the difference if it comes up, letting them know that it was thought to be a benefit, but discovered it was not necessary so it isn't done any more. and truly discuss what the benefits are to having it. there is a book that i thing is actually pretty good though: Doctor's Re-examine Circumsicion -- I thought it was a really easy read and it is set up in points, 40 reasons why to say no to circumsicion. One of the points is looking like daddy.

[feebeeglee]

I don't know of any studies.

I do know that it's not culturally 'important' that we surgically scar up our healthy, normal children to match their parents in any other way but circumcision wounding.

We don't make children wear contacts so their eyes match the shade of the parent of that sex. "Well of course not, that's ridiculous!" people would say.

How is cutting off part of the penis not even more ridiculous?

At least a kid could take the contacts out!

[njeb]

Well, I just asked my 18 year old intact son if he had been traumatized by being different from his circ'ed father. His response? "He** no!"

We live in a high-circ. area, but it hasn't bothered him a bit that he's different from his friends or his father. Your husband's fears are unfounded.

[Frankly Speaking]

Try going to www.cirp.org and type "look like father" in the search block. Take your choice of articles and research. I think you may find what you want.




Frank

[Taosmama]

A very good friend of mine whose ds is now 11 told me that when her ds got old enough to ask, they explained that when daddy was a baby, people thought they had to do this operation but that now we know that it isn't necessary. His response? Poor daddy!

It's funny that so many are concerned that their ds's will be traumatized not looking like daddy in such a minor way. Is my dd going to be traumatized that her breasts aren't like mine? We all have so many biologic differences.
It seems that many boys have a reaction of horror and empathy that their dads had to go through such a brutal procedure.

Dh never had one bit of concern that our ds would look "just like him." (he was circ'd, ds is intact) Ds is 4 1/2 and it hasn't even been an issue yet, just that daddy's is "big"!

[wendy1221]

My 6 year old only talks about how big his daddy's penis is how he wants to have hair on his when he's bigger! ROFL!

[earthmama06]

Wow! Thank you all for your stories, perspectives and suggestions. I think they will be helpful in talking with dh. I only wish that I had been educated prior to ds circ. I was still under the impression that it was done for medical purposes.

I am so grateful to this board for openning my eyes to new things and for all of the support the members provide.

[calngavinsmom]

Hi there. I just wanted to add this article to the list:
http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/Like-Son.htm

Circumcision rates are so different today(much lower) than when we/ our dhs were born. If it really was "damaging" to be different in the penis department, I really don't think the numberes would have plummeted like they have. Especially because it is the people who are educated about circ who are choosing no to.

Good luck.

Take care,
Tara

[Messac888]

I also wanted to add that it seems to be much more traumatic to the DADS than to the kids, imo. My ds, nearly three, noticed about 6 months ago that his dad's penis looks different than his own. Usually, if ds's penis is sore he'll retract it and pull out the cat hair or two (since the cat naps on his bed and he plays with himself in bed as well, sigh). Well, he saw dh's penis and actually stopped to look, went up to dh and asked him, "Daddy penis hurt?" My dh responded, "No, Daddy's penis isn't hurt, it just looks different than your penis." Ds said, "Oh," and left it at that. One day we'll have to explain circumcision, but for now dh's answer was good enough. I thought it was a wonderful reply, especially since my dh used to be one of those dh's that insisted on circ so his ds 'wouldn't be traumatized by being different.' LOL

To the pp who asked why any kids would be seeing their dads penis, well, a lot of people on this forum are not ashamed of their bodies and therefore are okay if their young kids see them naked. My ds learned how to pee standing by watching dh do it (which is good since I cannot do it, lol) and we are almost always naked in our house. We try not to use the air conditioner unless it is absolutely necessary, so that means we don't usually wear clothing. My ds knows that boys have a penis and girls have lips (since girls shouldn't be defined as not having a penis, imo), and that mommy and daddy have hair on their privates because they are bigger people. We do not let them touch our genitals, but there's no reason they would anyway. I mean, my 8 month old dd crawled up to me, stood up and tried to grab my labia piercing, but I just told her no and redirected her. That's the only reason my kids have tried to touch me there. End of story. My ds knows not to be naked when we have guests, but in our home we are, by nature, a naked family, and are perfectly happy doing so. HTH.

Back to the OP, maybe you could show your dh pics of the circ board (the thing those poor babes are strapped into). That was more than enough to make dh nauseous. And, if you want the whole story about how we chose to leave ds intact, PM and I'll let you know.

[Karah R]

Just wanted add that I know several mamas at other communities who were not educated about circumcision when they had it done to their first DS that later learned the truth and thankfully never did it again with any subsequent sons--they've said it's SUCH a nonissue (and I think the moms I'm thinking of have circ'd DH's). Nothing the kids have noticed more than in passing, if at all. I mean, come on--ALL fathers have sons have similarities and differences--you don't see blond haired fathers getting their son's hair dyed to match theirs if it's not identical!

[Pandora114]

And another reason why little boys might see their dad's penis is this:

Dad's teach little boys how to pee standing up.