Attachment Parenting is on its way out - Page 2

[Dechen]

I think much of parenting is culture, not instinct.

I can't remember any specifics, but I know I've read about captive primates who were raised by people having a hard time with mothering. Often, keepers will have to take charge of an infant because the mother primate, having had no role models, doesn't do an adequate job of taking care of her baby.

How many of us have had poor role models? Way too many. And the culture around us reinforces the idea that less is more when it comes to parenting. (Less time, less involvement, less inconvenience).

When I studied abroad in Nepal, my host family was aghast at how American families operate. They pitied us, with our independence and lack of togetherness. They lived in a house with a mud floor, but they felt sorry for ME.

I come to MDC to be influenced by the culture here. Instincts did not bring me here, or to AP. My brain did!

[mum2sarah]

Yeah, I agree with Dechen. I think we have to be really careful to pronounce AP as "instinctive" or "natural," because the fact of the matter is it doesn't feel instinctive or natural to lots of us.

MaeMae bravely admitting that she sometimes yells at her child is a case in point. Already she got the "tsk tsk" from other APers that she would dare yell at her child, but let me tell you, my first "instinct" when my children misbehave is usually to yell at them. I have to override that by my brain kicking in before I react and saying, "that's not what you *really* want to do, is it?" And then I (usually) find my way to my heart and react more gently and APish. But I will admit I sometimes let it slip and yell. Yes, I feel terrible about it; I strive my very hardest not to do so, and I always apologize if I do slip. But geez, none of us are perfect, are we? It makes me wonder how we can proclaim AP as instinctive if it can be so very hard. I mean, even in the absence of any "expert advice," if I were just parenting by my "instincts" and not making a deliberate effort to be AP and find that voice of my heart that's buried under so many layers of society's influence, I really doubt my parenting style would resemble AP at all...

In fact I even wonder about parenting in the "traditional society," too. From what I've read in "Conitnuum Concept," speaking sternly to your children and expecting them to simply obey seems like the norm in some traditional societies. They aren't always given eye contact and a sweet request with a logical reason for that request--they're just told what to do, and they know their place on the totem pole is follower to their elders, leader to those younger than them.

Furthermore, to me it seems that frustration and anger are just as "natural" as are empathy and love. I wonder how much the "natural" human mother would have given much conscious thought to how she parents. If she got angry at something her child did, might she just yell out of frustration? Isn't that a "natural" reaction? I think that, while AP is very much *inspired* by natural instincts, I think it really does go beyond them. AP makes it a point to say that we want our children to grow up in an warm, empathic environment, surrounded by respect and love, and even if that means we have to put our own (natural) negative feelings aside sometimes, we will do so in order to raise our children as wholesomely as possible.

[annettemarie]

Thanks, Mamas, for keeping the conversation going! There's a lot of good stuff here. I think even with AP, there is a danger of being so caught up in the experts- Granju, Sears, O 'Mara- that we can't see the forest through the trees, and we miss the part where we take the time to get to know our own children. I have three, and all four are very, very different. My daughter was not, as a baby, a co-sleeper. She hated it. It broke my heart to set up the crib and realize she just wanted to be left alone to sleep. Now, at four, we do co-sleep, and it is one of the peaceful, most restorative parts of my day.

[trmpetplaya]

"I wonder about instinct a lot. Often I really wonder if it's instinctive to parent the way you were parented or the way the majority of society parents?"

I think I would call that a "sheep mentality" rather than instinct. Follow the herd. Do what's "normal" for the time and society one is a part of regardless of how it makes one feel; like the mother a pp mentioned who doesn't like hearing her baby CIO, but does it anyhow because it's culturally accepted. She has instincts, but ignores them and goes with the herd because it's "what's done".

I remember in the Continuum Concept they mention that mothers are often reluctant to hold their babies in arms all the time just hearing about it (from our cultural perspective it does seem a bit excessive and inconvenient at first), but the more the mothers hold their babies, the less they want to put the babies down. Once the mothers start listening to their instincts, they can see the cultural norms for what they are. Just someone's idea of how children should be raised when it's really the mothers who know best if they would only listen to their instincts.

I don't see AP as ever being "in" as long as we live in a consumer driven society. It's hard to sell cribs to people who share beds, diapers (at least for years) to people who EC, strollers to people who carry their babes in-arms, and bottles to people who breastfeed :LOL

love and peace.

[fly-mom]

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

I define instinct as a feeling of being compelled to act in a certain way that has its basis in our genetic wiring and is triggered by certain chemical processes, rather than that which is mentally conditioned from outside sources.

Yes, I believe that's the way most people think of instinct, but I don't think it's that cut and dry. Humans evolved as social animals, it's pretty logical (IMO) to assume that some of our instinct is tied to functioning in a social context. Think of language. We are born with an instinct to learn language, but what language we learn depends on what language we are brought up in. On a similar note, there are periods of childhood where language is very influenced by peers, perhaps more so than parents. Think of kids you know who have moved from one country to another. What accent do they have? That of their parents, or that of their peers? Now, why do they pick up the accent of their peers? Are they trying to fit into the society they live in? Is it an 'instinct' to try to fit into the society in which you are immersed?

I'm rambling here and I'm not sure it is at all relevant, but it's a subject that interests me greatly. A really intersting book on the subject of maternal instinct is _Mother Nature_ by Sarah Blaffer Hrdy. Very thought provoking.

[HelloKitty]

I'm also wondering exactly when AP was "in", based on what I see around me it still hasn't been "in" enough to be on it's way "out".

What bothers me about that article was so much focus on what works and what doesn't and how it effects the parents and their relationship, blah, blah. What about a baby's basic right to not have his/her feelings ignored? Babies communicate through crying - that's just a fact. If a parent ignores that communication they are doing a disservice to their children.

I think AP is instinctual in the case of not crying it out. I have never talked to a mother that did CIO who was happy and go lucky during the sleep training. These women fight their instinct to go and pick the baby up. That's sad.

[Messac888]

The atricle made me want to :Puke and I couldn't finish reading it. Our society always seems to think that, if we don't get our own way (enough sleep, enough money, enough cars, enough toys, etc) that we're somehow either being ripped off or manipulated, depending on what it is we're talking about. Sheesh.

Example- the other day I was at my mom's place and her friend was over. I was there with my dd (since we're still exclusively breastfeeding she can't be without me, nor I without her). Well, mom's friend says to me, "So, is Talia sleeping through the night yet?" I was like, "No. She's up every couple hours to nurse." She was like, "That must be hard!" I say, "Yeah, but it's not too bad, I just go to bed earlier than I'd like to." She asks, "Wouldn't you rather get more sleep? Can't (dh) give her a bottle?" I said, "No, I'm fine. Besides, I get to cuddle with her in the middle of the night then." She asks, "But wouldn't you rather sleep?"

Sigh...

[phathui5]

I don't see AP as ever being "in" as long as we live in a consumer driven society. It's hard to sell cribs to people who share beds, diapers (at least for years) to people who EC, strollers to people who carry their babes in-arms, and bottles to people who breastfeed

Hmmm, so would it be a good thing then to promote AP as a consumer thing maybe? It would go against the kinda simple lifestyle a lot of us try to have, but if it gets parents and babies closer together, wouldn't it be worth it?

We don't use cribs, bottles and strollers; but couldn't we encourage people to buy co-sleepers, Lansinoh and slings? In the AP group I go to, most of the moms own several different baby carriers. We could talk them up to people who want to buy things for their baby rather than the stuff people are used to buying.

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by phathui5

Hmmm, so would it be a good thing then to promote AP as a consumer thing maybe? It would go against the kinda simple lifestyle a lot of us try to have, but if it gets parents and babies closer together, wouldn't it be worth it?

We don't use cribs, bottles and strollers; but couldn't we encourage people to buy co-sleepers, Lansinoh and slings? In the AP group I go to, most of the moms own several different baby carriers. We could talk them up to people who want to buy things for their baby rather than the stuff people are used to buying.

I would completely be against this for many reasons. There was a thread in breastfeeding activism a while ago where someone suggested that the way to get stores to promote breastfeeding was to encourage them to market to breastfeeding moms. I think it's a horrible ideas. It's just completely goes against one of the most basic premises of attachment parenting- trust your heart. How can you trust your heart if you have to rely on books by experts, gadgets by experts, etc, etc, etc?

Additionally, it then makes AP something for people with $$$, and less accessible to people who don't have $$$$. If you can't afford a sling, can you still be an AP mama? OF course! I suppose the argument could be made that people are going to buy crap anyway, so it may as well be our crap, but I just don't find that to be all that convincing of an argument.

[maemaesmama]

Originally Posted by Leilalu

I'm sorry.....but are you justifying yelling at your 4 year old?Because if so, that is not cool. I too have a very strong-willed child. I callher"spirited" If I yell, which I don't very often,but I am not perfect-She acts wild. So IMO, I don't see how yelling finds a balance.From having a mother who yells at everyone I can tell you that yelling is not nurturing.Please explain your post a little more, I am at a loss I guess as to what you are trying to say.

Yes thanks I have read the book. Of course there is no right way to do a wrong thing, but my point is that I give it my all every day all day long. I have moments where I fail myself,a nd my HIGH standards of parenting. I am saying that this is natural! IMO it is more important to find balance in the entire household rather than expect PERFECTION from even us mama's who aren't perfect unlike you of course.

[mum2sarah]

:

[lauraess]

Perfectionism totally S#@*)!
It's trying to kick my little butt these days and I WILL NOT let it!
..Rather be a happy mama that one that aspires to be all this and all that
Being a mama Is so hard sometimes........ Please

[LizD]

There's a great book by Bruno Bettelheim called "A Good Enough Parent." Title says it all. No matter your parenting philosophy, it doesn't do anyone any good constantly to question oneself to the point of undermining and interfering with natural, relaxed relationships. Forest for the trees, so to speak.

[gottaknit]

Originally Posted by fly-mom

I wonder about instinct a lot. Often I really wonder if it's instinctive to parent the way you were parented or the way the majority of society parents? Hmm. Just thinking out loud.

I've thought about this a lot, too. I just finished reading A General Theory of Love, which explains the science of Attachment Theory, how the brain develops during infancy and childhood, and how that affects a person for the rest of their life. (This is real science, with references and peer-reviewed studies backing it up, unlike the Continuum Concept, which while well-intentioned, seemed pretty bogus to me.)

Anyway, my point is that I think a person has a certain instinct for parenting encoded in their genes, but for many people in our culture that instinct is squashed/deformed by their own brain development (or lack thereof), due to the way they were parented early on. It's basically a negative-feedback loop of crappy parenting.

I don't believe that people are being sheep and doing whatever everyone else is doing, just because. I honestly believe there are a lot of crappy parents out there who think they are doing what is best for their kids. It's pretty sad.

[gottaknit]

Her routines include advice such as "baby should be awake, nappy changed and feeding no later than 7am; you should have cereal, toast and a drink no later than 8am; 8.30am – wash and sterilise bottles and expressing equipment; 10am – baby must be fully awake regardless of how long he slept."

: : :

I don't even like cereal.... TOO BAD! Gina Ford says I MUST have cereal by 8am!

[Bearsmama]

I've said this before about breastfeeding-and I think it's true of AP parenting in general: We pay a lot of lip service to things like breastfeeding in this country, and yet bottle feeding still seems the "norm" (this is from my IRL experience, of course, I don't know the current stats). Kind of like how, in the past 50 years or so, we've changed our view of children in this country. No longer is it completely acceptable, at least on the surface, for children to be "seen and not heard". And yet, we still don't really fully accept the responsibilty of raising and rearing and guiding children to adulthood (not to mention the amount of lip service that's paid to taking care of children in this country vs. the $$$ and funds and programs that are really available to help kids).

Many parents don't want there to be any pain involved with child-rearing. And believe me, when I had a colicky first baby, who has later become a highly spirited child, I often want there to be less pain more gain! : But suffice it to say, since the day my first was born, I've given myself over to the process. The pain, the joy, the ugly times, the sad, the happy, you name it. And I just don't think everyone is prepared to do this. Lord knows, I didn't think I was. But now I realize that I have a certain set of ideals that are very important to me. And those ideals can be best summed up by the label of AP parenting.

Let's hope we can all rub off on someone!

[MamaHippo]

Originally Posted by Vermillion

That was my first thought as well. On its way out? When was it in?!

Anyway, parenting trends like this always irritate me. Like, being respectful and gentle with your kids is just a hip fad that can be tossed out as fast as last season’s colors! Oh, AP is so last year, treating your kids like dogs is now all the rage!

Yuck!

I agree. i have had to search far and wide to find other AP moms. Thank goodness for this forum, i would never have found any around here. Most of the moms I know are very into CIO, separate sleeping, bottlefeeding in order to 'get their body back', etc, and they look at me like I've got 3 heads when I say not only is my DS still nursing but still sleeps with us, doesnt cry for hours, and still prefers his sling to his stroller most of the time. I ENJOY having my baby 'attached at the hip'. Sometimes i do need a little break, but I cant imagine being a mother and purposefully separating myself from my child, treating my child like luggage. I too have a very high-need child, and if i was trying to force him to conform to some expert's idea of a schedule, we would both be miserable. There are some days when we are up and fed by 8 am, and some days we stay in bed snuggling, playing and nursing until 9:30. Who cares when some author says your kid should be awake? They aren't raising your kid.
Look at the celeb moms in the news; it seems like they go through all the parenting trends. For a while, slings were 'in', now its that $750 stroller. They all have nannies. Hell, they all have TEAMS of nannies. i read about some celebs actually hiring 'sleep trainers' to help (read:force) their kids to fall asleep on their own via CIO. So they dont even have to listen to their own kids as they CIO. Of course they are going to say CIO works wonders! :
I guess they say that one parenting trend or another is 'in' or 'out' based on how many famous people, authors and childcare writers are buying into that trend.
Listening to your heart and following your instincts will never go out of fashion.
.

[ashleep]

Many parents don't want there to be any pain involved with child-rearing. And believe me, when I had a colicky first baby, who has later become a highly spirited child, I often want there to be less pain more gain! But suffice it to say, since the day my first was born, I've given myself over to the process. The pain, the joy, the ugly times, the sad, the happy, you name it. And I just don't think everyone is prepared to do this. Lord knows, I didn't think I was. But now I realize that I have a certain set of ideals that are very important to me. And those ideals can be best summed up by the label of AP parenting.

Let's hope we can all rub off on someone!

:

[USAmma]

AP was designed for life within extende families or communities. It's very, very difficult to be an ideal AP parent of more than one child in today's isolated world. There should be more support for mothers of young children. I don't know how to make that a reality.

My MIL was very AP, but then she had dh when she was living with her own MIL and SIL and their family. Everyone helped out with the babies. MIL said that in the neborn days, they took turns caring for dh at night, and he would sleep with various people. He would be brought back to nurse but then taken away again so that MIL could get rest. She also had the luxury of a daily nap while someone watched him. He was always held and cared for. She says she doesn't know how women in America do it all alone with no family support. I sometimes don't know how I do it, either.

When they came for dd1's birth MIL would hold and care for Abi all night. She slept on the sofa and all I had to do was hand Abi to her and she happily rocked her if Abi didn't go back to sleep right away.

[Finch]

ITA w/USAmma. We have no family closer than 4 hours away. None. We have friends, but I am the only SAHM of my friends, everyone works. When ds was born, and we got hit with the colic and reflux, then everything else that's been piled on since then...well...needless to say, we got baptism by fire. My friends all have family members who live in town that babysit and care for their children. They never had to deal with what we dealt with. Our marriage suffered quite a bit near his first birthday, we have really dealt with a lot....I'm amazed we've survived all we have, to be honest. But we never would have had this much trouble, I think, had we had more support IN TOWN. It's hard to parent a high needs/special needs child when you're essentially alone.