forbidding barbie -- thoughts? - Page 3

[LunaMom]

Really, I'm not making fun, but for the person who said that they are raising their child in a "gender neutral" environment, please wait and see in a few years. Unless you raise your child in a steel box, at some point, she is going to come home and say, "I don't want to wear that dinosaur shirt; dinosaurs are for BOYS." Don't have a heart attack when it happens.

I'm not saying you have to agree with her - I didn't, I would just say, "Well, no, that's silly, dinosaurs are interesting to learn about for lots of people!" But you can't force her to wear the shirt, KWIM?

I do try and buck the system when it comes to gender stereotypes, but it just ain't a gender-neutral world. Sad but true. I do the best I can, but you can't totally immunize your child against it. There's a whole lotta pink and purple in my daughter's room, and hey, it looks nice. If she wanted red and blue (or even camouflage green) I would have done that, too.

[Trinitty]

How exactly would you have a gender neutral house?

I've heard it thousands of times before, but, I don't really get what exactly is meant by it.

My Dad was home with us when we were really little, laid-off from work. My mother is an ER Nurse.

Dad is a ex-Airborne, big, loud and hairy. He also makes us pies and cookies and tucked us in and tickled us and bought me Barbies and He-Men. I played in the woods with my dog and I pretended that I was an Earth goddess, and I built forts and I shot a BB gun. I also dressed up as Cinderella.

I had a MIX of toys and experiences and so did my sisters.

BUT, I am a woman, and I was a girl.... and I was always okay with that.

Is that gender neutral?

[flyingspaghettimama]

I was also not allowed Barbie as a child. And I coveted them sooooo bad. I loved outfits and dress up, and the fisher-price "My Friend Amanda" was wearing the ugly digs, you see, no matter what my parents said. Guess what I bought when I turned 18, just for complete spite. I completely understood (sort of) my parents' redneck-hippie rationale against Barbie (and Cabbage Patch kids, for some reason), but mostly I thought they were mean. Well, they were mean in a lot of other ways, so I figured this was yet another new manifestation of meanness.

Fast forward to today - I won't buy them for her, I will make fun of them, but she can get one with her own money or for a gift.

Now electronic toys with batteries, those I ban. Barbie won't drive me insane auditorily. I don't have to look at her if I don't wanna.

Herbert Kohl has a great piece on this in "Should We Burn Babar?" - basically his role of parent as gatekeeper vs. information and decision provider.

[Korwynne]

We're not doing barbies in this house. I have discussed it with Lindsey, and she agreed with me. My issue aren't the typical ones though I remember playing with them as a child and being very frustrated.. darn things were hard to dress, their shoes fell off all the time, body parts would pop off, and I ended up with a ton of naked dolls with messy hair. Of course, I had small muscle skill issues that probably made it worse, but although I played with them a lot, they were stressful at the same time. I told Lindsey that's how I felt about them, plus there are a ton of tiny pieces that get lost, etc.

I have no problem with her playing with them elsewhere, I just don't want them HERE.. and she knows if we get some, they're going to the gift closet where we keep things we can gift to others (such as a child off the tree at Christmas) and she's cool with that.

Why? She played with them at someone's house and had the same issues.. hard to dress, shoes and accessories kept falling off.. one barbie had a leg pop off while trying to dress it and several lost their heads. She agreed she didn't want them.

She's got tons of my little ponies instead.

[never]

I guess when I said gender neutrality, I meant gender equality.

My partner and I have a philsophy that gender is fluid and that each person posesses some qualities of both no matter their physical sex.

So we are trying hard to provide our child with a myriad of toys. Some from both sides of traditional gender classifications. Mostly we try to provide toys that are open ended, lego etc.

I'm sure who she is as a person will evolve over time, she's not quite 3, and I will try to evolve with her. For now, she has alot of ways she can express her individuality and she gets to make alot of her own choices. Some things we just believe strongly in though and still will not allow even if she chooses. Kind of like how we don't let her eat ice cream for dinner because it's not healthy.

This thread has given me alot to think about and I am appreciating what other people have to say on this.

[stafl]

Originally Posted by ceilydhmama

lol... I was a creepy child. I had one barbie that I chewed the limbs off of. My older sister started calling her 'amputee barbie' and it stuck. She did all the rescuing though.

but do you know what happens when you put Barbie in the microwave oven? I do, but the Rubix Cube really took the prize for best nuked toy. Do you know what happens when you light a string of firecrackers with Barbie perched atop them, or better yet, between her legs?
Those were fun times... *sigh*

[**guest**]

:LOL stafl - WHAT happened to the rubix cube? i am very curious and want to try it!

[loudmama]

Thanks all for the discussion! I new I would get some good stuff here.

I think I'll end up getting her an Only Hearts Club Doll with some clothes & see how it goes. I'm still not sure how I will handle it if she really wants a Barbie. I'll explain that I'm not fond of it & why & let her know I won't spend my money on it. She does play with a wide variety of other toys, so I don't think it will become an obsession (yet!).

I'm trying to approach this as best I can. I don't think Barbie is the end all, be all of evil. (Ok, maybe I do!) I don't want to just out right ban it, but hopefully explain why I don't like it & give her alternatives.

Ugh. How the hell did one doll become such an icon?

L

[Lisa Lubner]

i caved in and brought home a bunch of barbies... i did my best to provide her with a diverse community of plastic people, but i did get the blond haired blue eyed barbie... well, because my daughter happens to be blond haired and blue eyed. i am thinking now though, that i want to replace most of them with groovy girls. i've been thinking about it for a while, and it's not like i think that my daughter's body image is all that at risk... i do agree with avoiding them on the grounds of avoiding consumer culture. i also don't really dig how barbie only represents ONE standard of beauty. the ethnic variety in barbie's circle of friends is minimal... one may have slightly smaller boobies, or brown hair, or green instead of blue eyeshadow... but there isn't that much of a difference for me to be all that impressed. i'm also a little bummed about not being able to find barbie clothes that aren't fit for a prostitute. i might have to ask barbie where she gets her bras from...

[flyingspaghettimama]

Originally Posted by LoveMyLittles

i also don't really dig how barbie only represents ONE standard of beauty. the ethnic variety in barbie's circle of friends is minimal... one may have slightly smaller boobies, or brown hair, or green instead of blue eyeshadow... but there isn't that much of a difference for me to be all that impressed. i'm also a little bummed about not being able to find barbie clothes that aren't fit for a prostitute. i might have to ask barbie where she gets her bras from...

Well, if you notice - Barbie's ethnic friends have the same anglo features as Barbie. It's much cheaper to produce them this way. Nobody's features are all that different from one another. Thank goodness - what would the children THINK?!

[Kraai]

The issue here, I think, revolves around the impressionability of early learners, (preschool and under,) more than older children who may be more resiliant to the otherwise damaging effects of things like premature exposure to sex and violence. My daughter will not own a Barbie or other such sex/fashion doll until she is **at the very least** out of the developmental stage in which she is fundamentally structuring herself as a human being (school-aged, i think.)

This being said Barbie personally disgusts me as a thinking western person. Barbie is the posterchild for the american beauty paradigm which has evolved only slightly since the 60's and 70's. All of these other dolls and toys including Bratz are a natural evolution of fashion dolls as Barbie becomes more and more incorperated into our society and eventually becomes an old standard which newer generations look on as bland, tame and "their parent's dolls." This standard is also reflected in the media around us, several females in the media (including music, television, film, visual arts) incorperate Barbie-type beauty standards into their medium and therefor reinforce and propagate that model within our society which, again, leads to desensitization and acceptance of things not acceptable. Barbie is not "just a doll" as people are fond of citing. Barbie created (or reinforced in a mass-consumerist way) a morbid beauty model within and outside of America.

Appropriate alternatives exist and some have been mentioned here of which I believe Groovy Girls is probably the best example of an open-ended roleplay doll. They are dressable (more easily dressable than Barbie, i would think) and display a sense of style that is not inappropriate for a prepubescent body-type while retaining virtually endless opportunities for varied scenarios and play styles. Obviously one can make clothes for nearly any doll on the market which also adds to it's longevity as a viable toy for your children.

[Lisa Lubner]

Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama

Well, if you notice - Barbie's ethnic friends have the same anglo features as Barbie. It's much cheaper to produce them this way. Nobody's features are all that different from one another. Thank goodness - what would the children THINK?!

my little daughter has the best attitude about body image... i so don't want to ruin it.

she totally made my day the one day she poked me in my chubby post-pregnancy belly and said "BEAUUUUUTIFUL BELLY!"

[stafl]

Originally Posted by annabanana

:LOL stafl - WHAT happened to the rubix cube? i am very curious and want to try it!

You don't really want to try it... there's little metal screws inside it that get superheated, and all the squares start twisting up. It becomes very Dali-esque - but way better than some silly melting clock!

Originally Posted by LoveMyLittles

my little daughter has the best attitude about body image... i so don't want to ruin it.

she totally made my day the one day she poked me in my chubby post-pregnancy belly and said "BEAUUUUUTIFUL BELLY!"

My 4yo DD does, too. Barbie has nothing to do with that. She says to me "I love your poofy belly" and "I love your big boufy nummies" and "why are you putting make-up on, you are already pretty?" I couldn't be further than what Barbie looks like. I am short, dumpy, and have a really big nose. DD has no problem realizing that Barbie is a cartoonish toy and not what real people look like at all. I never liked Barbie as a kid, but I have way more self-image problems than my children do! I think it was other societal influences that were much more damaging to me than any toy could have been. Just being aware of those often subtle influences means that our children are less likely to buy into that crap.

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by stafl

DD has no problem realizing that Barbie is a cartoonish toy and not what real people look like at all. I never liked Barbie as a kid, but I have way more self-image problems than my children do! I think it was other societal influences that were much more damaging to me than any toy could have been. Just being aware of those often subtle influences means that our children are less likely to buy into that crap.

I couldn't agree more Stafl! Another interesting thing is that my Dd does resemble a Barbie. So what would she be feeling if I were to say "You can't play with those. That's not what real women look like. " At almost 12 she is already feeling some anger and resentment from girls who say that she is "too skinny" and "must be anorexic". Clearly real women look like a variety of things

Once when I was talking to Dd about why people often didn't allow Barbie I said "they were afraid that girls would think they should strive to look like her." Dd responded that she's never really wanted to be only a few inches tall. God I love that kid.

[Leatherette]

Hey,

Barbie does have a few good (in my opinion) "ethnic" models. There is a "She's so Raven" doll that looks okay, and there is one with natural hair and a chest that looks attainable.

My daughter is African American, and I am thinking ahead for her. If she wants a Barbie, I want to know what the decent options are for her, instead of forbidding it outright and having her only access to them be the busty blonde ones at her friends' houses. Nothing against busty blondes.

It is sad that there are not more options for children of color and parents who want diverse dolls for their kids. I feel that. But there are some.

L.

[USAmma]

re: gender neutral girls. I tried to raise mine like that, with dinosaurs, trains and cars. She actually didn't like "girl" toys all that much. Sometimes I dressed her like a girl, and sometimes I dressed her neutral or boyish. One day a month before her third bday we took her to buy a snow suit for a Lake Tahoe Thanksgiving trip (we have rich family members). They had some on sale and I let her choose which color she wanted from yellow, blue, and pink. She did not hesitate and chose pink. To make matters worse, we went to pick out snow boots and she gravitated towards a pair that was pink with silvery snowflakes and a tuft of fake fur around the ankles. She started asking for her nails to be painted. She told me one day that boys were not nice but girls were, and she only plays with girls if she has a choice. Where did she get this?? It's inborn. Your child will be who they were meant to be. Now she chooses what clothes to wear and aside from her Superman and inner-workings-of-the-body shirts, her fav. clothes have butterflies and flowers on them.

[Kate522]

My DD 1 (age 5) has a Barbie (a gift) and some Disney princess dolls. She doesn't play with them too much. If she plays dolls, it's mostly with her rag doll which I made (Waldorf style from a catalog kit) or her American Girl doll. She also plays baby dolls frequently because her little sister DD2 (23 m) is baby-obsessed, and when they play together they play baby dolls.

I just think there are so many more doll options than Barbie. I like American Girl and Goetz dolls because they look like real girls. They are bigger and their clothes are easier to put on. You don't lose shoes so easily either. Some of you might complain that they are too expensive. Well, yes they are expensive, but well made. And one American Girl doll is about the same as 5 Barbies, so you have less clutter with one doll. And a lot of Barbie owners have 6-7 Barbies. I had Madame Alexander and Effenbee dolls growing up and I adored them. I made clothes for them, and accessories. And, yes, my dolls went on dates and got naked too. Unfortunately, Madame Alexander doesn't make that size doll any more.

[polka123]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

My DDs have Barbies. They got interested in Barbie when they were very young and now (they are 7 and 8) have pretty much outgrown Barbie.

I agree with pretty much everything you are saying about Barbies, but the bottom line for me is that I don't feel the need to control which toys my kids can play with. When I was weighing the decision, I had to figure out which of my parenting values was more important -- my desire to give my kids as much control over their own lives as possible OR my dislike for Barbie's unrealistic proportions.

Barbie at our house is an animal lover -- she has cats and dogs and horses. We have Barbies of different races. When she isn't training her animals or being vet, she reenacts fairy tales.

Sounds like my home when DD was little.

Oh yeah, Barbie drove the Tonka dump & Backhoe trucks.
Barbie @ out home also drove the neighbor boy's GI Joe stuff.
Barbie was multi-faceted @ our home. She was also a mechanic & had hair salon. She ran a Recording studio & was a Drill Instructor to the GI Joes :LOL

My DD played several sports since 5th Grade thru 12th, modeled a little as a teen & has a great self image about herself & lean, athletic bod !

Barbie was not a negative force in out home

[azyre]

I have no plans on banning Barbie, in fact we have 3 already, all are different hair and skin colours ... Barbie has def changed since I was a kid, many have flat feet, their waists are wider and their boobs smaller ... if that matters to you

I don't think having a Barbie will intefer with what I want to impart about our culture, from everything including consumerism, body image, the "beauty myth" and so on. I don't hear much about parents banning toy cars because they represent consumerism and a large enviromental impact. Barbie and fashion dolls and war toys are the main scapegoats for this kind of cultural censorship.

I don't like how traditionally admired feminine qualities are often denigrated. There should be nothing wrong with revelling in youth and beauty and frilly-frou-frou princess style stuff. The fact that so many children are drawn to this suggests to me our desire for it is very human. Most cultures have their version of it. I know my DD has rarely if ever seen me in something "pretty", doing make up etc and yet she is drawn to it. I am far more interested in her indulging her childhood joy for whatever takes her fancy than teaching her the negative stuff. Should I teach her to have disdain for housework and cooking because women have been subjugated by these tasks in the past and present? Children want to explore these roles and pretend to be adults and I don't feel that a cultural critique is necessary at a young age, there is plenty of time for that ... and I'd much rather chat casually about it to a 7 or 8 year old who's fill for the experience of playing with Barbie has been met, so they don't feel criticised for their interest in what Barbie offers.

[Lisa Lubner]

Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa

Dd responded that she's never really wanted to be only a few inches tall.

:LOL