How do u teach a toddler to fall asleep lying down?

[Breathe]

Someone please tell me. Even before reading Irishmommy's thread I was starting to worry that we have done something very wrong in rocking and bouncing and singing and nursing, etc, etc, our child to sleep. At 15 mos, he has never once fallen asleep when he wasn't in our arms. Every time we try to lie down with him still awake (after the bedtime routine), he gets increasingly wound up and it is so clear to us that he needs our help -- actual PHYSICAL help -- to fall asleep.

He is getting heavy and I just plain think it's time for him to learn to fall asleep with one of us lying down beside him. I mean, for Pete's sake, some parents complain that they have to do that but we would be SO grateful!

So what do we do? Actually HOLD him down on the bed so he can't crawl around? (we've tried playing possum and he'll crawl around for an hour and a half getting wilder and wilder) I do know that if we push him into crying (by holding him still) and then comfort him, he will fall asleep faster, but all along I have not wanted him to have to cry to fall asleep. Has this been my mistake? Do some children just need to cry a little bit in order to wind down? Have I AP'd us into this quandry? I thought I was teaching him to have positive sleep associations, but he is still fighting sleep and now I'm lost.

If you've had success in teaching this important skill to a child, please tell me how you did it! We're very patient and aren't looking for a quick fix, necessarily, but we don't really know where to start.

Highly educated but STOOPID in ways of sleep,
Breathe & DH

edited to add: I've read all Dr. Sears has to say on the matter and while I love the man, he has ceased to be helpful with his pollyannish view of sleep. And I've read Pantley, too, AND Jay Gordon. I need advice from a REAL mama!

[mamaduck]

We taught ds to fall asleep laying down at bedtime, but oddly it hasn't transferred to naptime.

Anyway, What I did was wait until he was almost asleep (but not quite) and warn him that I was going to set him down in 2 minutes. And then I did. And he cried, so I picked him up for "2 more minutes." And then after 7 or 8 tries, he eventually was so tired that he laid down and fell asleep.

Every night it got a little easier.

When it got easy to lay him down at that extremely groggy almost asleep stage (a week or so) then I started laying him down (after a 2 min. warning) while he was still a little more conscious. And then each night he would be closer to a wakeful state when I set him down.

Now -- he nurses "both sides" and then lays in bed while one of us sits in the chair beside his bed and sings. Or sometimes I lay down next to him.

But he still wakes at night. And naptime is still really rough.

[Breathe]

This is EXACTLY the kind of help we need, Mamaduck! Thank you. How old was your ds when you started this?

[Iguanavere]

Breathe,

I'm so sorry that you are dealing with this...I have a very spirited 2.5 year old son who fights sleep, like know one I know!

We co-slept from day one and he has always required a human body breathing with him in order to sleep. I became pregnant and so when DS turned 2 I started to slowly wean DS from needing to me so much to fall asleep.

Here is what I did:

I started at night-time - created a predictable routine, which ended with us both in bed reading books. After the last book, I said goodnight to the books and the light and then he could nurse in the bed. If he tried to crawl around, I would gently bring him back, telling him no crawling around, that it was time for sleep. With the pregnancy, my nipples became overly sensative, so I would also limit the amount of time nursing - so after a generous amount of time nursing, I would give him a warning that he could nurse for x more minutes and then he would need to lie on his stomach and I would sing to him. It took 10 days to make this work and after he got used to the predictability of the songs that I would sing (I never varied - same set of song each time) he got that he should fall asleep.

After about 10 days he got it - sometimes he cried and wanted to nurse more and I would sympathize with him, but stuck to helping him fall asleep, lying down, without nursing.

I did sometimes hold DS tightly while lying down because he was clearly tired, but fighting sleep. I've been slammed on this board (or another one, I can't remember) for doing this - but DS was clearly tired, and was getting more and more out of control as the night progressed - same at nap-time.

Also look at your child's nap schedule - are they sleeping too much during the day, causing them to not be tired enough at night?

I did the same thing with DS for naps after the night-time sleep thing was established.

The results were a child that would go to sleep lying down and without nursing. I still have to be their to comfort them to sleep - but I am OK with that - I really enjoy cuddling with DS - it's tricky now that I have a 4 weeks old baby but I really cherish that special time. The other benefit is that because DS falls asleep on his own, I don't have to worry about him waking up endless amounts of time because I pulled my nipple out prematurely, or the transfer from arms to bed caused him to wake up. He sleeps more soundly and I can actually be in the room and put away laundry (quietly) and he doesn't wake up. His sleep is much better.

So in a way, I think I did AP my way to some poor sleep habits for my DS...I'm going to try and be more aware of it with my new baby.

[Breathe]

Wow. Thanks, Iguanavere. I *really* appreciate you taking the time to write all that down for me -- that is so helpful. I will not slam you for the crying. In fact, there have been moments of true clarity for me when I have seen ds cry through a new routine for a few days (like his car seat, or me in the shower), but once he realizes that everything is okay, he stops crying and actually seems happy with it. Yes, yes, babies who CIO alone in a cage are learning to give up, but I'm starting to think that this kind of crying, in the presence of a loving, empathetic parent, is maybe not so bad -- at least not for my ds. I still need to think about this, and I'm interested that your child was 2 when you did this -- ds is still pretty young, so we may wait a while. Or maybe just move very slowly toward our goal.

It's SO hard to think that my AP practices may not have served him well! Even though I really do think we've followed his cues all along. He's just a high-touch baby! Oh well, we'll continue to do the best we can . . . gently and responsively, of course!

Thanks again!

[Shanghaimum]

Breathe,
My son is almost 15 months old and we have been gently helping him learn to fall asleep for a few months now. When we first started we used to wear him to sleep in his sling or Bjorn. We had to stop though because he is a very large baby (now weighs over 30 lbs!) and it was killing our backs and ... it was getting too cold to take him out for his nightly walk - he would only fall asleep in his bjorn (or sling) if we were outside...
Then for awhile I nursed him to sleep. Sometimes it would take over an hour and often he would just nurse/nap and then want to get up and play.

Now we are at the point where we are all much happier.

THis is our bedtime routine:
Dinner at 6:00
Bath at 7:00
Playtime at 7:30
Bedtime at 8:00
When it is bedtime we tell him and he runs and jumps on his futon. Then with the lights on I start nursing him. While I am nursing him, my dh recites Goodnight Moon (he now knows it off by heart!). Usually after the second time through, my ds has started to look sleepy. Then we turn off the lights and I do up my nursing bra and we all lie down. Some nights ds will fuss for 5-10 seconds, but never longer. Almost immediately he snuggles into me and goes to sleep. AFter a few minutes, dh and I get up. I join ds on his futon when I am ready to go to bed.

The first night that we tried our routine, ds was quite upset. He fussed off and on for about 20 minutes. We actually thought it would take longer, but after about 20 minutes, he just kind of snuggled tightly into my side and went to sleep. When we heard his little snore we almost danced we were so surprised at how painless it was.

I think that what has really made the difference is consistency. DS now knows what to expect. I think it also helps that he is a little older. The other amazing thing is that now DS wakes much less frequently through the night - most nights he now only wakes 1-2 times. When he was walked or nursed to sleep he used to wake 6-10 times a night.

Good luck - if you have any questions about what we did, just let me know.

Emma

[mamaduck]

ds was just about 24 months.

We also nightweaned him at 25 months, and it helped him sleep longer stretches. But then he was sick and I went back to night nursing. We'll try again after the holidays.

[EllasMama]

Breathe, we are in the same predicament with our 22 month old. It is hell getting her to go to sleep, whether for nap or nighttime, so we (DH, that is) agree to carry her around just so she'll actually sleep (during the day I drive her around so she'll sleep). It doesn't matter how tired she is, she still fights it. We've tried other ways (laying down with her, gently keeping her on the bed, even therapeutic hold a couple times) and none of it has worked. All it does is quickly escalate things till DD is hysterical.

I really liked mamaduck and Iguanavere's suggestions and hopefully we will have the strength to try them one of these days (or months). We do have a routine we stick to every night, and that seemed to improve things over how they used to be, but it is getting really old having to tote her around for a *minimum* of 1/2 hour for her to get to sleep. Thanks for starting this thread!

Carol

[USAmma]

We just decided it was time for her to learn to accept bedtime, so when she was around 15 mos. we turned off the lights and went to bed. She cried and was mad but we were right there with her. We just didn't rock her. We sang songs and all that and after a week she accepted bedtime. She now will put herself down for naps sometimes, and rarely fights bedtime.

Darshani

[Breathe]

Thanks again, everyone.

Emma, that was a great reply! Yes, we too hated to see the weather turn cold bc our nightly walk in the sling was a CRUCIAL part of getting ds good and sleepy! A few q's for you -- first of all, we do exaclty the same schedule at night, but how do you eat dinner at 6?!? Does your dh get home early enough to help you by then? My dh doesn't get home until 6:30 and THEN I start making dinner (ds still isn't ind. enough for me to start earlier), so either ds eats late with us (which we REALLY want to become a family tradition -- eating as a family, that is) or I feed him earlier by himself. But I see your point that you have to start pretty early.

Also, when you transitioned to the bed, how did you get your ds to "run and jump on the futon"? Did you have to hold them there at first? My ds might run and jump into bed, but then he'd crawl around for an hour!

And EllasMama, I know this is horrible, but I was so happy to read your post! I mean, I hate it that you guys are having a rough time, but I was just relieved to know that someone else is going thru this, too. I must say that some nights we get incredibly lucky (maybe even 2 nights/week) and ds will fall asleep easily with just some rocking and singing. And while we have searched and searched for some pattern as to when this happens, we can find none, and THAT is frustrating, too! And yes, I think I'd be more prepared to start something new (which would mean it gets worse before it gets better), is I weren't so damn sleep-deprived!!!! (of course, the nightwaking is another story -- I gotta tackle these challenges one at a time!)

Hey, I may check in with you mamas again once we start the new regime -- may need some practical pointers -- hope that's okay!

THX!
El

[Shanghaimum]

Emma, that was a great reply!

Thanks Breathe!

first of all, we do exaclty the same schedule at night, but how do you eat dinner at 6?!? Does your dh get home early enough to help you by then? My dh doesn't get home until 6:30 and THEN I start making dinner (ds still isn't ind. enough for me to start earlier), so either ds eats late with us (which we REALLY want to become a family tradition -- eating as a family, that is) or I feed him earlier by himself. But I see your point that you have to start pretty early.

We used to be quite relaxed - I was never really into the idea of having a set routine... Now we have found that if we are consistent, Mac does much better. Sometimes we have to deviate from our schedule, but Mac definately sleeps the best on the nights we are consistent. If we are out or I am at my weekly yoga class, we just follow the same routine, but shorten the times.

My dh gets home around 5:30-5:45 pm. We used to end up eating around 6:30-7:00. Like you, I believe that eating together is very important - something not to be compromised. It is challenging because Mac wants to 'help' me cook and sometimes we end up eating a little later. BUT most of the time we eat around 6:00. ((This is a bit OT, but I find that meal planning (something I never thought I would do) really helps. Most days I start preparing dinner when Mac has his nap and if it looks like dinner just won't get done, we eat pasta!))

Also, when you transitioned to the bed, how did you get your ds to "run and jump on the futon"? Did you have to hold them there at first?
It has been a process... The first night he was quite upset. We didn't hold him, but we did keep him on the futon. When he would try and walk away, either dh or I would just get up and pick him up and lie him down again. He actually only got up twice. He did flop around for a long time though. After he finished fussing, he just kept flopping around - he would lie on my chest, or climb on dh's legs or try and stretch himself over the pillows... It was like he was trying to figure it out, "Hmm... how do I go to sleep without being walked or nursing..." Eventually (after about 1.5 hours) he fell into a deep sleep.
Every night it got a little easier. Every day he became more comfortable. For the past three weeks, at 8:00 we just say "Mac it is bedtime, let's go to bed." And... miracles... he goes to bed.

We have had a few nights where it has taken longer. Last Saturday, for example - we had company and celebrated an early Christmas. Mac was so excited that it took a long time for him to fall asleep. That said, we just followed our plan. Instead of a few minutes, it took him 25 before he fell asleep. He wasn't fussing, but he was just so wound up. Dh and I just laid beside him and whispered away - and by about 9:00, he was asleep.

Bedtimes are a much better time now. It is also nice because while Mac is falling asleep, dh and I just lie with him in the darkness and reconnect a bit as well.

Breathe I hope I haven't rambled on too much. Keep us posted and if you have more questions, just let me know.

Emma

[mommybritt]

So many good answers. Like a few other mamas, we have a bath, jammies, story routine and then I nurse dd on both sides in her bed with the lights out. After that, I lie down with her and sing her songs if she wants and she usually falls asleep pretty quickly. My dh can also get her to sleep this way (minus the nursing!!) on nights when I'm out. And, to our great shock, my mom was able to get dd to sleep this way (again, minus the nursing) when dh and I went out for a far too rare date last Saturday night.

We started this in the summer when I got my period back and dd would just nurse and nurse and nurse. I was getting frustrated and sore For the first while, it would take a looong time to get her to sleep. She'd crawl all over me and talk and play and then usually cry a bit and ask to nurse again when she got really tired. I've found that if I do nurse her again after I've said that we're done, it just makes things worse because I'll only nurse her for a few minutes and she'll get upset and want to keep nursing. Even recently with nightweanng, I've found the same thing.

For us, I think it took persistance and being consistent. Interestingly enough, this has not translated to naptime. She still needs to nurse all the way to sleep for her naps.

Good luck!

[Breathe]

Hey Britt, thanks for the encouragement. It's funny, but I JUST put ds down and he was *slightly* awake when I laid him on the bed! YEAH! This was after nursing him, which pumped him up (he hasn't nursed all the way to sleep in months!) and then rocking and singing. But what I did differently tonight was I refused to nurse him again when he asked after about 10 minutes of the singing -- It's so funny that you had posted about the same thing, but I just got this feeling that we were prolonging things by him just going back to nursing repeatedly.

Gosh, I can't believe I did that -- It's the first time EVER that I have refused him. (He did not cry -- isn't that interesting? He just put his hand down the front of my shirt and sucked his fingers. In 2 minutes he was out!)

What gave me the idea was that last night dh put him to bed while I was out at yoga and ds hadn't nursed in probably 3 hours before bed (it DID take him over an hour to get ds down), but he then slept for 3, nursed a LONG time, and then SLEPT FOR SIX HOURS!!!!! I know it could have been a fluke, but this little voice told me it's better to stretch out the nursings so he'll really get his fill when he wakes, and then maybe he can sleep for longer stretches. We shall see.

In any case, you've all inspired me (and dh!) and over the break we're going to institute the new routine of lying down b4 he's asleep (dh will be home for 2 weeks, so it's okay if it's a rough transistion). All of a sudden I feel like it's a little okay to refuse some of ds's whims -- I've not been ready to do this before now, but it's like he's mature enough to take it, you know? I haven't thought this all the way through, but this may be one of the ways where the AP books and philosophy have let me down a bit -- they don't really talk about this happening. Hmmm.

Okay, now I'm rambling, but I did want you all to know that you've helped me process this and be brave about moving forward! Thank HEAVEN for MDC!

[EllasMama]

Originally posted by Breathe
All of a sudden I feel like it's a little okay to refuse some of ds's whims -- I've not been ready to do this before now, but it's like he's mature enough to take it, you know? I haven't thought this all the way through, but this may be one of the ways where the AP books and philosophy have let me down a bit -- they don't really talk about this happening. Hmmm.

I totally understand. At some point they do grow beyond the baby phase and really don't need all their whims catered to. It's been a hard adjustment for us accepting that, as well, and the books don't necessarily prepare you for it (IMO) other than generalizing how they eventually self-soothe and get to sleep easier - which always seems to be noted at some age way younger than my DD who still doesn't do those things. : We just found at around 18 months that things that used to be okay suddenly weren't okay anymore. DD is capable of waiting a minute, whether she's thrilled about it or not. We eventually all have to learn to coexist peacefully, and that means giving in to other people's desires some and standing up for your own some, too. I try to remind myself that if I just give her the moon every time she whimpers, that is teaching her a lesson about what it is like to be a mother that I don't necessarily want her to learn! And if anyone out there translates that to believe I'm not meeting my child's needs, they obviously haven't been to my house! She rules the roost and knows it, but we try to carve out a morsel or two for ourselves every here and there, LOL.

Carol

[EnviroBecca]

Breathe, I wonder if your son needs more opportunity to "burn off" energy before bedtime? The crawling around makes me think that--and I remember that a while ago you were posting about how you had to start the bedtime routine early because if you didn't he would "melt down" which might be a way of discharging energy that's had no other outlet. It's too cold to take him for a walk in the sling, but what if you took him for a walk w/him walking? (I don't know if he walks enough for that yet?) Could you make a point of having some active play at the beginning of the bedtime routine?

Another idea came from MrBecca when we were talking about this last night: A stuffed animal can serve as a role model for going to sleep: "Okay, Hippo, time to go to sleep. Just lie down, and I'll tuck you in...and now a hug.... Good night, Hippo!" and then you're ready to do the same to your son. It might help if he sees his animal friend cooperating! This might also help if part of his unwillingness to go to sleep is that he knows that when he does you'll get up and leave (do you? I'm thinking so because you "just put him down" in one of your posts); knowing that the animal will stay w/him may be comforting.

I was a "bad sleeper" as a kid, and one technique that was pretty effective was telling me that I didn't have to SLEEP but had to stay in bed w/lights out and not bother my brother. One thing I did was play w/stuffed animals; they would communicate in mime and walk around on the bed. It helped me "wind down" without parental assistance until I was ready to sleep.

One thing that NEVER worked and became a big power struggle for my parents was, "Close your eyes. You can't sleep with your eyes open, silly! Close them so you can get to sleep." Well, first of all, I didn't want to lie there awake w/eyes closed because it was boring! Second, I felt they were lying--based on experience, I knew that if I kept my eyes open, I WOULD eventually fall asleep and my eyes would close themselves at that time, and I also knew that closing my eyes did NOT automatically put me to sleep or even seem to help if I didn't already feel sleepy. Wanting your son to lie down may be a similar thing: While it's true that he can't fall asleep while crawling, he may be using crawling to wind himself down to sleepiness, and when he does get sleepy he will naturally want to lie down. If you insist that he lie down, you may not be doing any harm re: how much sleep he gets, but you may be working against your goal of getting him to learn to go to sleep by himself--because lying down will become something he does because you enforce it, not because it makes sense to him.

I think beginning to refuse some of his whims is right on target! He's at the age where "I need" and "I want" begin to diverge. The trick is to figure out which of his whims are counter-productive and to avoid refusing things that could help him develop independence.

[mommybritt]

Ohhh, that reminds me -dh does the stuffed animal thing with her, too. When he puts her down, they put all of her friends to sleep first and then lie down together.

And I totally agree about the setting limits/giving in to every whim thing. Especially with nursing, it was hard for me to realize that we had a nursing relationship and that as she got older, my needs deserved consideration, too! I think we got so used to the nursing on demand that we don't remember that that can evolve

[Jenny G]

Thank you, thank you, thank you everyone for talking about this! My ds is 17 months old and is an angel for naptime (he nurses to sleep within 10 minutes) but nightime has recently been a battle.

He nurses to sleep at night pretty rarely, so that leaves us with books, and "dancing" to music with him in my arms. And he's getting pretty heavy! He refuses to be rocked anymore, but he'll let his Grandma do it!! :

And how he fights the dancing bit. At first I resisted letting him cry at all, so we would go back to bed numerous times to nurse or just let him play awhile, praying he'd get tired. Finally my dear MIL who never let her 4 babies cry it out, suggested that it would be ok if he fussed a little while in my arms. So we tried it, and it really helped to relax him so that even if he didn't pass out in my arms, he would fall asleep on the next milk go-round.

One funny thing, he really is in control of making himself stop crying. One night he heard the cat playing with one of his toys, so he would stop to listen. Then he'd remember he was supposed to be upset and start again!

I can't wait to try the "I'll put you down in 2 minutes" thing. Maybe when he's a little older. Maybe one day night weaning? Dare I dream a little!

[lucimomster]

Jenny G's comment about her little one interrupting himself to listen to the kitten reminded me: when #1 son was in his first year and would fuss at nighttime after nursing and lights' out, I'd say "Hush! Do you hear Clint?" (the neighbor's german shepherd was often outside at that hour, finding something to bark at). Or we'd kinda quote some stories we'd been reading that night "Do you hear the night owl?" or "Can you hear Bear talking to Luna?"

I think just having a distraction is often helpful.

But you'll note I'm reading this thread: I haven't got all the answers, by any means!

Thanks!

Luci

[Breathe]

[sighing heavily]

Hi Everyone,

Here it is 6 months later and I just searched for this thread . . . After all your helpful suggestions, we did start putting ds down on the bed before he was fully asleep (at bedtime -- he's still being bounced in the sling for naps). We had very few expectations for completing the transition to falling asleep in the bed, so we've not pushed it much -- I think we were waiting for him to get a little older, as some of you advised.

So now he's 21 mos and it really doesn't seem like we've made a lot of progress. I'm now feeling like I have a MOTION JUNKIE on my hands, and I am 100% certain that we will have to teach him to sleep lying down . . . I truly do not have it in me to wait until he does that himself . . . I'd like to have another baby one day and I believe this needs to be resolved before we TTC!

So I guess I'm just bumping this thread to see if you all or any new people have any more suggestions . . . Dh and I are pretty sure we can do this in the standard "behavior modification" way (we were both psych majors and trained more than a few rats!), but I think we're waiting for someone to tell us a more gentle way. :

Thoughts?

(edited to add: That's not to imply that any of you did it the rat-training way; in fact, many of you had very clear and gentle methods to suggest. I think I'm just looking for a little shot in the arm so I can finally get up the courage to go thru with it. Or maybe I'm waiting for someone to tell me that a miracle will happen and ds will announce to us tomorrow that he wants to start falling asleep without any help!)

[EllasMama]

Breathe, my DD now falls asleep lying down most of the time. A huge improvement! Something happened at around 24 months, and she became more receptive to things she'd previously rejected. Out of a desire for change plus sheer exhaustion we started telling her we couldn't carry her around and then refusing to do it. Some nights were not fun, but others weren't too bad. We usually go through the night routine, walk her around for about five minutes, then lay down with her still awake, and she'll drift off after a few minutes of restlessness.

About 1/5 of the time for her naps, I can even leave the room before she is asleep and she'll fall asleep. I warn her in advance, which helps. A few times at night I've told her I'm just going to go get my pajamas or brush my teeth, and found her asleep when I got back, but that is more rare than with her naps.

If it's anything like our experience, your child will reach a point where you intuit a readiness to try the next step. With our DD, if the readiness isn't there, there is no hope of success. I don't always think, I believe she is ready for X or Y but some nagging feeling inside me will lead me to try something that was previously not possible, only to find that it worked. Follow your instinct and let your exhaustion give you the resolve to make lasting changes when the window of opportunity does coincide with your efforts. I say that only partly in jest, LOL!

Much luck,

Carol