ABCs and 123s

[Vermillion]

The flash card thread reminded me of this…

Anyone else here see no real benefit in teaching your kids to memorize their ABCs and 123s? Well, of course it is basic information that one needs to have eventually, but I think there is WAY too much emphasis on teaching these things to young kids.

A lot of parents of young children seem so impressed when their young children learn to recite the alphabet and learn how to count to 10 or more. My DS is 3, and doesn’t know his ABCs and hasn’t been taught to memorize counting. However, he can look at letters and tell you what they are and he loves to separate items and count them. I feel like that is so much more important than just memorizing things and reciting them.

I’ve had a few people act shocked that my DS hasn’t memorized these things, like my DS is missing out on something, but I say what is the point at this age? I see a huge difference in memorization and truly learning, and IMO the latter is so much more important. I feel like I’m a minority in this approach as I see tons of parents in some race to have kids who know how to recite all kinds of information at such young ages.

Anyone else with me?

[RubyWild]

The alphabet is easy to learn, facilitates memory, and is necessary for looking things up in the dictionary.

Counting is just plain important. Numbers aren't just nominal in nature. 2 comes after 1 for a reason. Counting is integral to math.

All that said, I don't think these things have to be pushed. Children will learn them when ready, but it's good to expose them to opportunities.

[Wolfmeis]

Originally Posted by Saudades

The alphabet is easy to learn, facilitates memorey, and is necessary for looking things up in the dictionary.

Counting is just plain important. Numbers aren't just nominal in nature. 2 comes after 1 for a reason. Counting is integral to math.

All that said, I don't think these things have to be pushed. Children will learn them when ready, but it's good to expose them to opportunities.

:

I do not think rote memorization is the way to go by any means. But memorization skills are important and this is certainly a fun and useful series of items to practice that skill.

Graham has to know how to read in order to research, so I will give her those skills as early as she wants them. The ABC-123 thing is absolutely BASIC level to the higher learning.

How we GET ThERE is what makes the difference IMHO. I believe in providing the prepared enviornment. She will learn the alphabet on her own.

[Vermillion]

Originally Posted by Saudades

The alphabet is easy to learn, facilitates memorey, and is necessary for looking things up in the dictionary.

Counting is just plain important. Numbers aren't just nominal in nature. 2 comes after 1 for a reason. Counting is integral to math.

All that said, I don't think these things have to be pushed. Children will learn them when ready, but it's good to expose them to opportunities.

Well, yes.. I realize this. That is why I made it a point to say that is information that you need to have eventually.

I just see no real point in pushing it on toddlers or even preschoolers.

My son has a wonderful memory, and is a very bright child, I don’t think he has suffered at all by not having memorized information that serves him no purpose right now. He can’t sing the ABC song, but he can recognize letters and words. He can not recite numbers up to 50 off the top of his head like some 3 year olds, but he can tell you how many items are in a group.

I just don’t see how knowing how to sing the ABCs or memorize a few numbers is a benefit to him at this age, especially when it is just memorization with no real knowledge of the actual letters or numbers, yk?

That is what my issue is.

[RubyWild]

Ack! Now my typo of "memory" is being quoted again and again.

I agree about not pushing it. I wouldn't personally use flash cards, but singing songs about numbers and letters is fun and easy and I do think it's the place to start.

[Wolfmeis]

OK yeah I can clarify what I meant. Yes I still think you should expose the littles to it. Because the alphabet and the number system are ...contrived...children need to be surrounded by it so it sort of seeps in over time.

When it comes time that they are ready to start processing the information into symbolic language, then they are already "friends" with the symbols and it is one less HUGE step that they have to make toward language proficiency.

[Vermillion]

Originally Posted by Saudades

I agree about not pushing it. I wouldn't personally use flash cards, but singing songs about numbers and letters is fun and easy and I do think it's the place to start.

My son doesn’t seem to have any interest in the kid songs right now. But he is obviously leaning as he can count items and recognize letters and such. I guess what bothers me is the attitude that it is imperative for young kids (I’m talking under 4) to know these things! All the video tapes & TV shows that push this just really get on my nerves!

I just know of so many kids that can count to 50 (reciting) but if you ask them to count items they can’t do it. What is more important? My DS hasn’t shown interest in singing the songs yet, but he loves to count items and name the individual letters.

[sophmama]

Originally Posted by Wolfmeis

OK yeah I can clarify what I meant. Yes I still think you should expose the littles to it. Because the alphabet and the number system are ...contrived...children need to be surrounded by it so it sort of seeps in over time.

When it comes time that they are ready to start processing the information into symbolic language, then they are already "friends" with the symbols and it is one less HUGE step that they have to make toward language proficiency.

I agree. I think it's a good idea to count things out like things I'm measuring while baking and she's on a chair next to me. Sometimes I count out things that are unnecssary like the number of spoonfuls of food I put on dd's plate. I count out random things - like pick up her foot and count her toes (she loves this). I point out signs and point out letters and numbers all around us all the time so she gets the idea that it's important to know and understand those things. She is facinated and will point out "Letter S!!" in the grocery store on a sign. We have fun with it - no torturous rote monotany. If it ever gets on her nerves I'll stop. I'm just trying to point out to her that numbers and letters are a very important part of our daily lives. She's littler though so this may not be applicable to older kids.

[luv my 2 sweeties]

I'm with you more or less, especially with the abc's. I was surprised the other day to hear my 3 y.o. ds sing the abc song incorrectly! :LOL I thought he knew it, but he mixed up a few letters here and there. He made it all rhyme though! This illustrates what you are referring to, I think -- that to a toddler (and some preschoolers) the abc song is really a nonsense song. While it's useful in some ways, and necessary for finding and filing information, it's not really necessary to learning to read or write. Witness the fact that despite ds's mistakes in the order of the letters, he is starting to recognize individual letters, and also to realize that they are symbols for sounds. Prime pre-reading activity right there! I *do* admit that 5 y.o. dd and I have been belting out the abc song at least once a day recently to try to teach him the right order, but that's more for the sake of accuracy. (After all, if he's going to sing it, he might as well learn the correct order.) It's not because I think he *needs* to have it down right now in order to continue progressing with his language and reading skills. I don't get overly impressed by small children knowing the song. Children memorize "Looby Loo" as well, but what the heck does it mean?? I *do* share in their *own* joy about it though -- a child excited about a new song is a wonderful thing!

I'm more apt to consider counting a useful skill though. While the order of letters in the alphabet is random (isn't it?), the order of numbers has meaning. I'm with you in that teaching a small child to recite numbers without any context is silly, but I don't think it's silly to count *objects* with children often in order to teach numbers and context at the same time. What children learn by counting objects isn't just a string of numbers -- you are laying the foundation for them to eventually realize that each number stands for a certain quantity that is always the same. (i.e. this many objects: *** is always called "3") I do think that children who are exposed to counting objects pick up on this earlier in general, which helps lay a firm foundation for liking numbers and being ready to learn more about them. In the process of counting objects frequently, they will learn to recite their 1-2-3's on command, but that's really just a fun by-product of real learning.

[**guest**]

totally with you.

dd is also 3, and the first time she heard the ABC song twice (not from me) -- the first time 6 months ago, the second time last week. now she can sing till G, and then STW Keks :LOL

she has not been asked / taught / encouraged to memorise anything.

she can count, and she knows many numbers by sight -- loves elevators. on some occasions she can do a basic addition, like 1+2 is 3.

she knows many letters, in both English and Russian and would often ask me about certain letters here and there.

she loves separating words into syllables, and into 'parts' -- orally.

yesterday was really neat -- she actually wrote her first letter 'A'!

we were at the neighbour's house, and her dd (4), who is homeschooled with A Beka was writing her name in chalk on the porch. Ada said, in English: I am going to write letter 'A'. and to my great surprise she did! a pretty perfect 'A' too. my neighbour kept drilling me if i had taught Ada to write, and if i did not, how come she knew how? she did not really believe me either that i did not 'teach' dd any letters at all -- i tell her what they are when she asks, but we never sat down to 'learn the alphabet'.

irl i feel like a minority as well. everybody keeps asking if ada knows her letters. she is 3!!! what's wrong with people?

i don't see any poit of memorisation. ESPECIALLY not at this age.

i do not even think that 'early exposure' is necessary -- i mean 'extra' exposure, like alphabet magnets for a 1 year old. these symbols have no meaning for a young child. when the child is ready to notice symbols rather than colours, animals, flowers, she will start noticing symbols in her life, and will keep asking about them. this is a natural way to 'expose' -- dd sees letters and numbers everywhere, but what is the point of having them on the fridge, kwim?

i heard an opinion that children should learn the ABC song before they even speak, so that they will always know it. i'd rather my child learned the song when she knew it was about letters, that each letter was separate from each other, and had its place in the alphabet and knew what it all meant. how many a child thinks that 'abcd' is some kind of a mysterious word?

everything about childhood is rush rush rush, expose expose expose. there is plenty of time. my A Beka neighbour keeps talking about being 'ahead of the game' by using that particular carriculum, because it does more than ps, and it is more academic. her daughter is FOUR! ahead of the game for WHAT?

[luv my 2 sweeties]

how many a child thinks that 'abcd' is some kind of a mysterious word?

And what kind of strange vegetable is an "ellemeno pea"? :LOL

[wynkenblynken&nod]

For the longest time my son

thought lemons peed. :LOL We lived on the second story of an apartment building and I'd let him sit with his cars and chalk on the balcony as I folded clothes on the bed (3 feet away) and I would be humming to myself and all of a sudden I would hear him yell out at the top of his lungs "LEMON PEEE"!! Being his father's son, he has a very deep voice which carried quite far, as I learned afterwards.

My daughter skips it completely. It's "L, P, R, S, V YZ" Y and Z are always together followed by "ALPHABET" and that's it folks.

I, on the other hand, was coached as a child to memorize things. In fact, it wasn't until my son was 2 years and some odd months that I realized that it was dreadful for a reason. It wasn't necessary! Bryan's mom still expects to recieve smart little sayings that she adorns herself in like jewels for her church friends who go to public school. This declaration is always made before she informs them that they must have picked it up in ps before I made them sit at home and do nothing. : I'm SO glad we live in seperate states!!!

[white_feather]

Of all the harmful things we do to our children in the name of education, encouraging ABC's and Counting is probably one of the least offensive to me.

Though I am learning to expose my children to these things in a natural way - like through child-led play with plastic letters, or counting the snaps on their shirts as we get dressed in the morning. Probably natural exposure works well with unnatural memorization to optimise how much "sense" it makes to a child.

As long as a child is enjoying singing the ABC's and learning to count, I can't see that there's any harm done.

[**guest**]

Originally Posted by luv my 2 sweeties

And what kind of strange vegetable is an "ellemeno pea"? :LOL

:LOL well, we know it is "aby seedy". not something my kids would like anyway :LOL

[**guest**]

Originally Posted by white_feather

Of all the harmful things we do to our children in the name of education, encouraging ABC's and Counting is probably one of the least offensive to me.

Though I am learning to expose my children to these things in a natural way - like through child-led play with plastic letters, or counting the snaps on their shirts as we get dressed in the morning. Probably natural exposure works well with unnatural memorization to optimise how much "sense" it makes to a child.

As long as a child is enjoying singing the ABC's and learning to count, I can't see that there's any harm done.

offensive or not, it is very exemplary of the mainstream educational philosophy -- getting ahead, starting earlier, results over process and so on.

there might not be any 'harm', though even this is arguable, but what is the benefit?

a child will learn to read when he are ready, and not before. when he is ready, he will learn the letters and their order easily -- because of the need and desire to learn. so it is only the appearance of a 'head start'.

why do we sing meaningless to a child combinations of sounds when we can sing virtually any other song? do we sing it because we love the tune? hardly. do we sing it because we love the lyrics? hardly.

there is a clear implication that this is something useful. subtle manipulation, but manipulation nevertheless -- we know that the child will memorise it. we even expect it. it is not singing for the enjoyment of it -- it is the artificial 'learning is fun' approach.

[sweetpeasmom]

I see no need to push it either. Mine has really learned it on her own. I just kinda helped along when she asked what something was. She can count now, she counts everything she sees, even her food :LOL letters she didn't learn the order first, she'd asked what something was and she learned that way.

[PancakeGoddess]

I don't do ABCs with littles because I think naming the letters just makes reading that much harder later. Of course, learning the alphabet in order is important later for using an index or dictionary. These days, it's mostly the index as we do online dictionaries.

Counting is different - if a little is into that, great. There are so many fun things to do with counting, skip counting, etc.

[falcon]

.

[Vermillion]

I just want to clarify the issue in my OP really quick-

On counting and knowing letters, I agree that they are very important and I DO expose my DS to these things. My issue is teaching kids to sing the ABCs and to recite numbers, when they don’t have any knowledge of the actual letters and numbers themselves. Am I making any sense here?

Like I said earlier. There are a lot of kids that can recite up to 50 and know the ABC song like that back of their hand, but they couldn’t recognize letters or count items. Big difference.

Sorry if I am saying something that you all realize here. I just feel like it’s coming off that I don’t believe in teaching kids their letters and how to count. Quite the opposite. I just take issue with people thinking that having their kids memorize songs and phases is more important than actually knowing what they're saying, the actual knowledge behind the songs.

Phew :LOL

[Vermillion]

annabanana, to both of your posts.

*I'd have quoted you but for some reason quoting is crashing my browser right now!*