Some questions from a future father. - Page 3

[Cheshire]

Try this tack:

You both have the responsibility to protect your son and do what is best for him. Because you disagree then agree to disagree and leave it up to him.

Tell her you will support him being circ'd when he is of legal age to consent to the surgery and seeks it out on his own (and it will be less painful for him then, too).

If you can get her to agree on that then your next step is to educate her on the proper care of an intact penis. No retracting for cleaning, etc. And, that it can be into a boy's teen years before he is fully retractible (sp?).

Get her to come read the stickies on this site. My dh and I learned so much on how to care for our son.

I remember that I agonized over the decision when I was pregnant. My dh was sure he didn't want it done. I knew I didn't want it done and I'm not sure what made the decision so hard except for the pregnancy hormones and the fact that I wanted to make the right choice for him. When I finally realized it wasn't my choice it was crystal clear to leave him alone.

One thing we had to make sure we took care of was educating our families. My mom cares for him during the day so we made sure she knew how to change his diapers. I also explained to her that if he ever is red and swollen to not freak out unless he can't go pee (then not to freak out but to call us).

I'm sorry you and your wife are having such a struggle with this. Also, remind her that you love her and that how you two work this out will tell you a lot about how you will resolve other conflicts that come up as parents.

I hope she can agree to err on the side of caution. As you say, it can't be put back once it's removed.

[Momma Aimee]

here is another though

kinda one i used on DH

your wife has already agreed NOT to perice a daughter's ears untill the gilr child is only enough to take part int he decision to modify her own body? correct?

Why can't the cir be the same. it is a cosmetic body modification; done -- much like periced ears -- for looks and to be like everyone else. so should the same "family rule" apply and th eboy child be old enough to ask and take part in the decsion?

Don't so much as decide not to -- as decide not to decide for the boy -- if he wants to later, he sure can. but --while i have heard of regrowth -- realistically you can't undo it later.

(for my part DH is opposed to body modification at all -- so i just cast cir as above cosmetic body mod done just to fit in -- it helped him see what we were really looking at).

[ericisbacchus]

Originally Posted by dnr3301

Eric- I'm in the Midwest too (minnesota). even here, the rates are dropping. What state are you in? We'll help you yet!

Missouri

[ChristaN]

Since you mention being in Missouri, here's a good article from the University of Missouri - Columbia: http://www.math.missouri.edu/~rich/MGM/primer.html

Nocirc also has a Missouri chapter: http://www.nocircmo.org/index.html Maybe they would be able to provide you with stats for your area if that would help sway your wife. MO did stop paying for circumcisions in 2002 through Medicaid, so I'm sure that would have reduced the numbers somewhat.

[Frankly Speaking]

Eric, you've clearly let the issue get out of hand and it's time you rectified that. Let me give you an easy way to do it.

Boys and men with foreskins is the default. They're all born with them. To change what is normal to something abnormal, there's gotta be a reason. You've let her put you on the defensive when you should be on the offensive and she should be on the defensive. She should be giving you a reason why it should be done!

Just say to her: "Darling, I realize that this is causing problems between us and I don't want that to happen. I'll agree to the circumcision if you will show me one good medical research study that shows there is a conclusive benefit. If you can't find it, we have to conclude that there are no medical benefits and agree that it won't be done, right?"

Well, she's going to think she's got you with this one but she's in for a surprise! At their last meeting, The American Academy of Pediatrics Taskforce on Circumcision reviewed 671 research projects on circumcision and could not find conclusive or compelling evidence to recommend circumcision. It's in their policy statement and the policy statement of every other medical association in the world.

So, Just pop that one on her and sit back and relax. She will be burning the midnight oil for a while and in the end, it will be for naught and she will realize you were right after all. If she brings up anything you can't answer, just bring it here. We'll have the answers for you!




Frank

[LadyMarmalade]

Eric, I'm so sorry this is happening - what a tough situation for you both. Like Frank said - the responsibility is on her shoulders to 'prove' it needs to be done, and she won't be able to find anything credible which supports her opinion.

Good luck, and thanks for the updates so far.

[Paddington]

wow, lots and lots of information. there is a book that my dh liked, it used to be called "say no to circumcision" but is now called "doctor's re-examine circumcision" by thomas ritter and george denniston. it got my dh to look at the info where before he agreed with me, but didn't want to find out about it. it is just 40 reasons not to circumcise, and it is numbered. it deals with some history, myths, explains the loss of sensation, and has quotes from men who were circed later in life and therefore can tell the before and after differences... it even has a long list of intact celebrites. it is a really easy reading as well.

i think the most important thing to know (other than that YES, it really does hurt and YES it is HIS body) is that the foreskin has a function. maybe finding out more the purpose of the foreskin (to help protect the penis, the increases sexual feeling) will help.

and if asking to put it off until the child can make the decision doesn't work, you can always say the child may grow up and sue you later...

good luck eric....

[ramlita]

Another point about anatomy:
I don't think many people know that the foreskin is not separate from the head at birth! If you're picturing a flap of skin simply being snipped off, it doesn't seem nearly as bad as the reality.
That's one more point to use if you're in the "he can do it later" vein of conversation...

Frank, the trouble with having her find data is that there's always someone out there who will still say it's a good idea. Plenty of out-of-date MDs, and newer articles that say that circed men have lower rates of HIV.
How do you deal with that? It's maddening.

[ericisbacchus]

Wow, I just watched a circumcision video on the circumcisionquotes web site.

It nearly brought me to tears...

It's hard for me to watch, and I have as strong a stomach as anyone I know.

That ain't happening to my kid.

If we find out we're having a boy, I'll get my wife to watch it. She has a weak stomach and won't like it at all.

[Paddington]

Originally Posted by ericisbacchus

Wow, I just watched a circumcision video on the circumcisionquotes web site.

It nearly brought me to tears...

It's hard for me to watch, and I have as strong a stomach as anyone I know.

That ain't happening to my kid.

If we find out we're having a boy, I'll get my wife to watch it. She has a weak stomach and won't like it at all.

good for you! exactly right. show her exactly what she will be allowing to happen to your baby if she insist.

[Daisyuk]

There is also this site with videos that can be downloaded. (I haven't watched them, I just couldn't, the pics are bad enough for me...).


http://www.intact.ca/video.html

[ericisbacchus]

Well everybody...

Thank God... I have won the argument.

I didn't even bring it up to her today, and she said "I want to talk to you about something."

I guess she had been posting on theknot or the nest or something, and most of those women weren't having their boys circ'ed. And, most told them that since the dad is the one with the penis that their opinion mattered more. Whether that's right or not, I don't care - because if we have a son he will stay intact!

Cheers, and thanks all. I'll post whether it's a boy or girl when we find out.

[jessjgh1]

That's great news!

FWIW, I would shower her with your support and understanding right now. As you mentioned in a pp, she was just concerned about the unknown and something that might harm her son- many of us came from that point of view too. She really thought that she was protecting her son (my best friend did the same thing, unfortunatly her dh left the decision up to her- and she polled local urology specialists- who were very unbiased- she was scared to leave her son intact and sadly, didn't).

It takes a little while to be comfortable with something we 'learned' was unhealthy, etc. With many doctors only familiar with circumcising, it is hard to get honest answers.

Also RE Frank's suggestion to be on the offensive, while that approach might work for the husband, I'm not so sure it would work for momma bear protective pregnant women. I came through this from the opposite perspective- fighting my dh to keep my son intact- but I think the feelings are the same. In this case, the momma needs understanding and support and then you can start to present facts. I think informing her about the anatomy (the foreskin fused) and then telling her how watching a video horrified you would have been enough.

And you CAN find things on the web that seem to be 'correct'. In the end I decided heck with the studies- I'd gamble that nature knows best- but I wasn't prepared to wade through all that crap. So personally I wasn't about to use that one with my dh.

Good luck to you and your dear wife. I hope you both will be able to do some research on intactness so you both will feel 100% sure and happy with this decision.

Welcome to parenting-- it is a huge learning process even before the little guy or gal arrives (-;

Keep us posted- and we're here if anything crops up!

Jessica

[jessjgh1]

Ok, I'm giggling because I actually typed out dear wife instead of dw in prev. post.

Sigh...

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally Posted by ramlah

Frank, the trouble with having her find data is that there's always someone out there who will still say it's a good idea. Plenty of out-of-date MDs, and newer articles that say that circed men have lower rates of HIV.
How do you deal with that? It's maddening.

First of all, you have to reject information that is not published in peer reviewed medical journals. Anything else is not worth the screen space it takes up on the computer monitor. That would eliminate that latest HIV research study. It has not been published anywhere. Also, other sites can masquerade as legitimate sites but the people putting them up have no medical backgound at all. I know one that is owned by a childrens television star, one that is owned by a retired graphic designer and one that is owned by a construction worker.

The latest AIDS/HIV/circumcision study is deceptive at best and apparently the British medical journal, The Lancet agrees as they have refused to publish it. One of the deceptions is that they state a 70% protective effect when the actual differential was the difference between 1.2% and 3.3%. With that difference, two or three cases could throw the results entirely the other way. By expressing the difference as 70%, it makes it sound like a lot when it really wasn't. On some of these things you have to read very carefully and read between the lines. That's something that I had to learn to do in my career and it just comes naturally now.


Eric:

It doesn't matter how it comes about, a win is a win! It seems she has been influenced by her peers in coming around. Usually with peer influence, the result is the other way around.

Congratulations! I know life is going to be much less stressful now. Good luck on the birth of your new addition!




Frank

[Velvet005]

I am so glad she has decided to leave him (if this is the case) intact!!! That is great news. Congradulations to you and your wife on expecting your first baby!!!!

[LadyMarmalade]

Woohoo! That's great news, thanks for letting us know! I'm so happy for you (and your little one - even if you've got a little girl on the way, she may have a baby brother one day )

[nd_deadhead]

Eric, I think you both are going to be terrific parents! You're off to a fantastic start!

Best wishes to you both for a comfortable pregnancy, and uneventful delivery, and a healthy, normal, perfect baby!!!

[Quirky]

Woohoo! Whatever works!

She may very well turn to you one day several months after the baby is born and say "I don't know what I was thinking, he's perfect the way he is, how could I ever have imagined putting him through that??!!"

You do need to make sure that both of you are educated on the care of the intact penis (don't ever ever retract, just wash like a finger). Especially if she is the one who will be taking him to the ped (sorry to be sexist, but IME it's usually the mother who does all that after the first couple of visits) she needs to know how to defend him from ignorant doctors.

Make sure she reads http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...uncircson.html

and the pamphlets at http://www.nocirc.org/publish/

Not only your ped but also all your relatives, day care providers, anyone who might be changing his diaper/giving him a bath need to know that they must not ever ever ever retract his foreskin for any reason. The outdated misinformation about needing to retract at every diaper change/bath is still quite prevalent and it poses a real danger. Getting him past birth with all his parts intact is only the first step in protecting him!

[ericisbacchus]

Originally Posted by Quirky

Not only your ped but also all your relatives, day care providers, anyone who might be changing his diaper/giving him a bath need to know that they must not ever ever ever retract his foreskin for any reason. The outdated misinformation about needing to retract at every diaper change/bath is still quite prevalent and it poses a real danger. Getting him past birth with all his parts intact is only the first step in protecting him!

Yeah, I told my wife that last night. Anyone that is taking care of him, we need to make sure they know not to retract it. Just to be safe I'm going to say that to all the nurses and doctors that come into contact w/ him too. If it is a boy, that is. I can't wait to find out! Oct. 10th...
Thanks also to everyone for the kind words. I feel like I need a parenting manual or need to take a parenting class or something. Does the kid come w/ an instruction manual? :LOL