What's TCS? - Page 8

[gaialice]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

To me personally, the root of TCS is seeing your child as an equal to you. Even the most GD parents I know still see their child as *lesser* than them in some way...when you begin to see your child as an equal, you treat them as an equal.

I do treat my children's needs seriously. I do treat them like I would treat any human being, with respect and with love. However, if we go to the supermarket together and the kids (3 and 5) decide to stock on junk food, no I will not let them. We: discuss in advance what foods are good and what are not, how good food has vitamins, gives us strength energy... and junk food only causes caries... and we do make sure that the kids are mom's little helpers at the shop and I take time to make the shopping trip fun for them too... And I will always buy some reasonably healthy little sweets or icecream... but I said loud and clear I am not stocking on candy and I will NOT. Gently, respectfully, lovingly but I am setting limits. And this is not because I do not treat my children as lesser than me.. I totally think I am treating them better indeed than any other member of the family me included... I wish someone would give me a warm bath, gently massage me with cream if I am itchy, read me stories, hug me and kiss me till I sleep...
My mom did all this with me too and in fact I do not eat a lot of junk food. Indeed it is not because she was "coercive" (which she wasn't, I mean she was/is very gentle ) I am now craving all the junk food that she deprived me of.. On the contrary, I am thankful to my mom for teaching me good nutrition. Again as I said, I learnt a lot from this thread and I am trying to put more negotiation in my lifestyle but I do not really see how it would work in a family with young children where both parents work...

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by mamazee

The sentence "in thinking about what's best for our kids, and helping them contribute to society?" really doesn't jive with that Libertarian mind-set I think, because it assumes those two issues, what's best for kids and helping them contribute to society, are related.

That, in a nut shell, is what's wrong with this country, imo. We have lost the idea of mutual aid and mutual benefit. It's all about what's best for us as individuals (or very, very small groups). Especially after spending time in overseas (particularly Ethiopia), I am truly shocked and horrified by how self-serving Americans are, and how highly the ideal of self-servism (for lack of a better word) is elevated.

As for TCS in general, I read the whole website a few years ago. I could never mentally get past the statement that was, at that time (don't know if it still is), on the site. It was something along the lines of TCS being based on the idea that it is possible to raise kids from birth without ever using coercion. I don't accept that statement as true, so even though I think it's good to look at situations in novel ways and to be willing to be flexible in your expectations of how things should go, I don't believe believe in the basic idea of TCS.

Namaste!

[johub]

Originally Posted by dharmamama

That, in a nut shell, is what's wrong with this country, imo. We have lost the idea of mutual aid and mutual benefit. It's all about what's best for us as individuals (or very, very small groups). Especially after spending time in overseas (particularly Ethiopia), I am truly shocked and horrified by how self-serving Americans are, and how highly the ideal of self-servism (for lack of a better word) is elevated.

As for TCS in general, I read the whole website a few years ago. I could never mentally get past the statement that was, at that time (don't know if it still is), on the site. It was something along the lines of TCS being based on the idea that it is possible to raise kids from birth without ever using coercion. I don't accept that statement as true, so even though I think it's good to look at situations in novel ways and to be willing to be flexible in your expectations of how things should go, I don't believe believe in the basic idea of TCS.

Namaste!

Amen Dharmamama!

[Dar]

I think it can be helpful to remember that TCS is a philosophy, not a parenting technique. As a philosophy, whether truly raising a child from birth without coercion is *possible* isn't pertinent. If you're trying to parent according to the philosophy, clearly coercion will happen, but the philosophy itself and its conclusions are based on no coercion. Discussing TCS on a practical level and TCS on a philosophical level are two different (although related) discussions.

"I do treat my wife's needs seriously. I do treat her like I would treat any human being, with respect and with love. However, if we go to the supermarket together and she decides to stock on junk food, no I will not let her. We: discuss in advance what foods are good and what are not, how good food has vitamins, gives us strength energy... and junk food only causes caries... and we do make sure that she is my little helper at the shop and I take time to make the shopping trip fun for her too... And I will always buy some reasonably healthy little sweets or icecream... but I said loud and clear I am not stocking on candy and I will NOT. Gently, respectfully, lovingly but I am setting limits. And this is not because I do not treat my wife as lesser than me.. I totally think I am treating her better indeed than any other member of the family me included... I wish someone would give me a warm bath, gently massage me with cream if I am itchy, read me stories, hug me and kiss me till I sleep..."

If you truly believe that you're not treating your children as "lesser" than you, and "better than any other member of the family"... then would it be okay if your husband treated you the way you treat them?

Is TCS for everyone... I don't think so, really. Not in the real world.

Bedtimes... we've never had to transition away from one, so I don't know anything about that, other than using some of the suggestions I mentioned early on.

One thing I want to note is that a child's decisions will sometimes inconvenience the parent... it's important to think creatively in cases like this. I had the Incredible Non-Sleeping Baby/Toddler/Child (who sleeps more as a teen than she did as a 2 year old) and it was just the two of us... sometimes I hired the neighbor kid to watch her while I napped, and sometimes I turned on a video and closed us both inside a childproofed room and tried to snooze... and eventually she would just stay up and come to bed when she was ready. It worked out.

Contrary to opinions here, I think TCS is much easier with a non-verbal child, because their wants are generally fairly simple. You just have to offer physically, rather than verbally...

Dar

[Peppermint]

Dar, if you aren't too busy, could you be my mom in my next life?

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by Dar

If you truly believe that you're not treating your children as "lesser" than you, and "better than any other member of the family"... then would it be okay if your husband treated you the way you treat them?

You beat me to this But you said it so much better anyway lol. It becomes very clear how different we are treating the children (or as less) when we put an adult in that slot instead.

One thing I want to note is that a child's decisions will sometimes inconvenience the parent... it's important to think creatively in cases like this.

Oh yes definately. I used to (and sometimes still do) struggle with insomnia, and when the kids were younger they would often wake up very early and be ready to start their day well before me. We worked out ways for them to be up safely and for me to rest. It's not always easy, but we work it out.

[insahmniak]

Dar, if you aren't too busy, could you be my mom in my next life?

Or if you're not too busy, can I hire you to cover for me every once in a while? I could really use a break sometimes and I'd be honored if you'd stand in!

[gaialice]

Originally Posted by Dar

If you truly believe that you're not treating your children as "lesser" than you, and "better than any other member of the family"... then would it be okay if your husband treated you the way you treat them?

OK, I think at this point I did get your point. The supermarket example really clarified things. I understand your philosophy, but then, no, I would not be able to do that. I would just not be able to let my dc stock on candy at the supermarket and I would not be able to let them do a bunch of other things. I think I am really much more flexible and patient than most parents but..... there are some things that I think are not healthy, safe or not good for our family, and I do take decisions and set limits then. I guess you are right that TCS is not for everybody, in the "real world".... Thanks once more for taking the time to explain your point. I will take a lot out of this thread!

[UUMom]

--One thing I want to note is that a child's decisions will sometimes inconvenience the parent... it's important to think creatively in cases like this. I had the Incredible Non-Sleeping Baby/Toddler/Child (who sleeps more as a teen than she did as a 2 year old) and it was just the two of us... sometimes I hired the neighbor kid to watch her while I napped, and sometimes I turned on a video and closed us both inside a childproofed room and tried to snooze... and eventually she would just stay up and come to bed when she was ready. It worked out.--


This brings up something that makes me a bit crazy. Which I'll get to in a sec. While, I don't claim to be TCS, I fall on that spectrum of more TCS than not. An old on-line friend once called our version Less Coersive Parenting, if there is such a beast, lol Anyway--my crazy thing--

It makes me nuts when parents choose against respecting the needs of the child becuase they think thier child is *more* something- more challenging, needs less sleep etc. Baring some real neurological issues, I don't buy that a parent can't make respectful parenting work. My last child is still, at age 6, a non -sleeper. She didn't even nap as a newborn. She was my 4th and i had to take care of three other small children and I did it. Like you say, we worked it out.

My second related gripe is AP families who think they can never get the neighborhood kid to help, that they can't work out something with other LLL families etc to give each other a break. My friends have been my saviors. I never thought I was supposed to do this parenting gig without some help. Even if occass it's Mr Rogers. Even if it means the kid has some candy once in awhile the the LLL friend who is kind beyond belief and will tade kids but allows gum.

I simply cannot live without assistance. I will not just make my life about me and my kids locked up in my house because only *I* can do it perfectly. I have seen beyond frazzled AP-type mothers stressing like crazy, yelling at bickering siblings, picking a fight over comsuming a potato chip at a hsing gathering etc. When one suggests letting a hsing teen come over and help, and I swear, the answer often sounds like "Oh no! I am the mommy and I could never not be there every single second of every single minute even if it might benefit my child. It's much better for a stressed mother to take care of her own child than to let someone else help me! And if i let her have this potato chip, i might as well say 'have a hit of this joint here'".

I hate the fact that being AP means to many that one (meaning the mother) has to suffer all the time. As the mother suffers, so does the child. Let the friends in.

[chinaKat]

Originally Posted by Dar

"I do treat my wife's needs seriously. I do treat her like I would treat any human being, with respect and with love. However, if we go to the supermarket together and she decides to stock on junk food, no I will not let her. We: discuss in advance what foods are good and what are not, how good food has vitamins, gives us strength energy... and junk food only causes caries... and we do make sure that she is my little helper at the shop and I take time to make the shopping trip fun for her too... And I will always buy some reasonably healthy little sweets or icecream... but I said loud and clear I am not stocking on candy and I will NOT. Gently, respectfully, lovingly but I am setting limits. And this is not because I do not treat my wife as lesser than me.. I totally think I am treating her better indeed than any other member of the family me included... I wish someone would give me a warm bath, gently massage me with cream if I am itchy, read me stories, hug me and kiss me till I sleep..."

If you truly believe that you're not treating your children as "lesser" than you, and "better than any other member of the family"... then would it be okay if your husband treated you the way you treat them?

The flaw in this argument is, of course, that you are assuming that a three year old and an adult are equally equipped to make wise nutritional choices.

chinaKat

[insahmniak]

The flaw in this argument is, of course, that you are assuming that a three year old and an adult are equally equipped to make wise nutritional choices.

Of course it could be argued that our outrageous adult obesity rates don't indicate that adults are any better equipped.

[chinaKat]

Originally Posted by ohmtaretu

Of course it could be argued that our outrageous adult obesity rates don't indicate that adults are any better equipped.

That's a rather disingenuous comment, don't you think?

I can't remember the last time I heard a three year old say "Gosh, I really shouldn't be eating this ice cream sundae, it's going to go straight to my hips."

There is clearly a difference between not understanding nutrition and not caring about it.

chinaKat

[johub]

Originally Posted by ohmtaretu

Of course it could be argued that our outrageous adult obesity rates don't indicate that adults are any better equipped.

But adults have only themselves responsible for them. Children have the added benefit of our guidance and protection.

[sophmama]

Originally Posted by johub

But adults have only themselves responsible for them. Children have the added benefit of our guidance and protection.

i have to agree with Johub on this. I also want to pass on good eating habits like my parents did rather than let my child run the risks of illnesses now and later in life from eating poorly while a child. There are a lot of foods that are just not going to be available in my house and I feel it's important to aclimate my child to healthy foods while she is young like my parents did so they will be her preference for life. I don't care if she eats them when out in moderation, but at home I'm not going to let her eat things that could in larger quantities hurt her uninhibited.

[mamazee]

I can't say I'm totally non-coersive, but I do let my daughter choose stuff at the grocery store if she wants it. Sometimes that means I buy some candy, but sometimes she'll ask for healthy stuff too. I usually shop at a small store that doesn't have a lot of bad stuff so that helps. But I don't see her wanting to stock up on garbage. She did ask for Spaghettios at one point and I found some Annie's Natural brand ones and she thought those were fine so we got those. I would rather she not eat regular Spaghettios. But we were able to find a solution that we were both happy with without too much trouble.

She's only 3. Maybe when she's older she'll want more garbage? I don't know.

[roseselene]

OK, I admittedly have not had time to read all of this thread because my 2 children don't really like it when I sit at the computer for long periods of time, so I hope i'm not repeating anything. I'm just curious. how on earth would I handle the following situation with TCS? .....
DD is very aggressive with DS....has been since he was about 3 months old. She pushes him over, she hits him, kicks him, bites him. You name it, she does it. I know that its out of jealousy, I can tell it is. I've made a big effort to provide both of them with individualized attention, I've sat down and talked to her about the fact that I love her even though Ben is here, I still love her. I've talked to her about the hitting, biting, etc...but she still does it. I just can't really see a way to rectify this without coersion...meaning I have to coerse her to stop abusing him. I can't just let her do it...ya know? So how does someone who practices TCS deal with this? I've tried very hard and I just can't seem to make it work.
Amy

[ShadowMom]

Originally Posted by chinaKat

The flaw in this argument is, of course, that you are assuming that a three year old and an adult are equally equipped to make wise nutritional choices.

Exactly! Most 3 year olds I know are MUCH more equipped to make healthy food choices than the vast majority of adults I know, including myself. They're way more in touch with their hunger drives, and what their bodies need.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by KristiMetz

Exactly! Most 3 year olds I know are MUCH more equipped to make healthy food choices than the vast majority of adults I know, including myself. They're way more in touch with their hunger drives, and what their bodies need.

Exactly. Controlling food now does not mean your child won't be happy to be rid of you when they get to take a little control over their food.

Absolute food control is always going to backfire. The bfing might help control for obesity genetically later on, but a lot of these kids go to junk food town when their parents are no longer around telling them they *must not* have the cakes and chips.

I hate the word 'moderation' because it's sounds like a sell-out. But in 16 yrs of knowing many food police moms, my experience shows it doesn't often come to a good end.

[FireWithin]

Originally Posted by UUMom

It makes me nuts when parents choose against respecting the needs of the child becuase they think thier child is *more* something- more challenging, needs less sleep etc. Baring some real neurological issues, I don't buy that a parent can't make respectful parenting work. My last child is still, at age 6, a non -sleeper. She didn't even nap as a newborn. She was my 4th and i had to take care of three other small children and I did it. Like you say, we worked it out.

I am enjoying this conversation, but this kind of comment really gets to me. I mention it now simply because I have seen such responses many times before, not because I think the OP was particularly caustic.
Not everyone can handle the same kind of situations in the same way. I tried my very best to treat my baby, now toddler with a huge amount of respect in regard to sleep. (DH and I have spent countless hours trying to figure out how to help all of us in the family regarding sleep.) It bothers me when something works out smoothly (or not so smoothly) for one family, and then that family can't understand why others can't do the same. Trust me we tried really hard with the tools we had at the time.

I see this situation and other challenging parenting situations as part of a learning curve. I see the path now taking us towards a more TCS approach to sleep, rather than just a very gentle GD approach - something I believe is necessary for the emotional health of my son.

For me, part of the learning curve was figuring out that post partum hormones and lack of sleep put me into a psychotic ppd. And, lack of sleep for DH made him into a terrible, terrible grump who became useless. What I have learned is that I will take Zoloft when the new baby comes, and we will use friends more for sleeping help. (At the time, my main source of support was other new mothers - unable to help in the way I needed.)

I hope that by the time I have my fourth child, I can use all of the knowledge and experience I picked up from daily life and the wise mamas from here, to make healthy respectful choices for everyone in my family. THese type of threads certainly help me on this path.

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by KristiMetz

Exactly! Most 3 year olds I know are MUCH more equipped to make healthy food choices than the vast majority of adults I know, including myself. They're way more in touch with their hunger drives, and what their bodies need.

This is one of those statements that sounds really nice in theory, and I am sure it would be true of a society that didn't have all sorts of chemicals and additives and added sugars and flavor enhancers in its food, but I don't agree that it's true anymore once a child has been introduced to junk food. My mouth certainly wants me to have Pringles for that mid-afrernoon snack, but my brain reminds me that that carrot sticks and frozen peas are much more healthy, so I have those instead. Food additives are like drugs. They alter the needs of your body in unhealthy ways and make your body's hunger and nutritional needs signals much less reliable.

I enjoy the occasional junk food snack. I want my kids to be able to, also. But it's not healthy for my kids to have 8 Joe-Joes (Trader Joe's oreos) at a time, like my son tried to do the other day, so no matter what his body (or brain) might be telling him about nutritional needs and desires, I'm going to make sure he treats his body well. I see that as my job as a parent.

Namaste!