What's TCS? - Page 9

[sophmama]

Originally Posted by dharmamama

Food additives are like drugs. They alter the needs of your body in unhealthy ways and make your body's hunger and nutritional needs signals much less reliable.

I have to say this really plays an important factor in my view on this issue of food. If there were nothing but organic fresh foods available I'd never comment or interfere at all. My child could eat anything. I think some of those other foods can really alter a child's behavior and make parenting WAY more difficult. For example allowing sugar levels to spike and crash can ruin a nice family outing. Yes maybe it's ok to let them experience it once and learn from it but as a kid I am glad my parents limited my choices to mostly organic and whole foods and as an adult I still far prefer them. I know a lot of people who were raised this way and it works for them. I mean yes there were a few times when I was 16 when I ate a whole bag of doritos or candy or something and felt sick afterwards but never picked up the habit. I love healthy food as an adult partly because it's what I'm used to. I don't LIKE a lot of sugar and additives because they feel so foriegn to me.

I don't think influencing your child's eating choices equals a lifetime of them rebelling in the other direction of junk food. I am sure for some people that was their experience but I guess it was just never up for debate in the home I grew up in so I never had the option of asking for other foods and I like them (the good ones) now as an adult. Conversely I have a friend who grew up on white bread and processed food and only wants to eat those foods. I guess I'm basing my thoughts on this on my own experiences but I just don't understand why some seem to think that influencing your child's choices to the healthier foods and helping them establish healthy choices is going to harm them. Sure there are rebellion and controll cases but it doesn't have to be that way. It can be done in non-overbearing ways.

[sophmama]

Originally Posted by UUMom

Exactly. Controlling food now does not mean your child won't be happy to be rid of you when they get to take a little control over their food.

Absolute food control is always going to backfire. The bfing might help control for obesity genetically later on, but a lot of these kids go to junk food town when their parents are no longer around telling them they *must not* have the cakes and chips.

I hate the word 'moderation' because it's sounds like a sell-out. But in 16 yrs of knowing many food police moms, my experience shows it doesn't often come to a good end.

Are you talking about kids out at an event where there is cake and chips? I'd never restrict my child in that stuff unless they were sick or had a diabetic/adhd/other condition. I'd encourage them to limit themselves but never police what is on their plate. However if they were eating all of one special food item and not leaving enough for others at the party I'd interfere. Hoarding is not ok. I'd encourage moderation without 'policing'. I'm not clear as to whether or not you feel there is a difference? I don't have those foods at home so it's not an option. I think my limited grocery budget cuts out a lot of food options anyways so it may be a moot point. When my kids are old enough to make money and buy their own foods they can bring some foods into the house then that they want. But I can't say I won't comment on it then either. My own parents commenting on food but even moreso living a healthy life-style influenced me heavily and I plan on keeping the same traditions alive in our home.

[captain crunchy]

I guess my opinion on it is, by the time your child is old enough to even ask for certain foods you have influenced their food choices, simply because it is hard to let a 10 month old go to the grocery store and pick out their own foods, know what I mean? In other words, even if you are a hard core TCS'er, just by sheer inability on the child's part, you are choosing their first foods for at least a year or more (say you begin at 6 months with solids and they can't communicate until 2 years old)...

I think it is pretty unlikely for a child who has only been fed organic, vegetarian, whole foods and vegetables and doesn't even know what an oreo is (even if they may have had one once) to come out and be like "hey mom, I want burger king!". I am not saying that this is the case 100% of the time, I am just suggesting that if all your child knows from a very early age is healthy foods and healthy foods available in the home for the most part, it is unlikely out of the blue they are going to load the cart with crap they have never even heard of or tasted.

Now it is a bit more difficult if you are a TCS'er who allows unlimited TV time because of course the advertising is going to be a problem. We personally watch very little television so we don't anticipate this being an issue.

I am just saying I don't believe children come out of the womb craving big macs and a box of candy. This is learned behavior and I really feel that in a home that is mostly healthy, where habits are formed early, it won't be a huge issue. I think TCS is being misunderstood in this way. It isn't as if you take your 1 year old to the store and everything they point at, you throw in the cart and line up in front of them to gorge on... it is more (imo) when they are old enough to communicate their needs and wants (regarding food) that you exersise a tcs approach...but by that time, they will have already developed some tastes and likes and dislikes for the foods you have provided before they could communicate so they will likely ask for those (mostly).

Our daughter is free to eat whatever is in our home when she gets old enough. Fortunately, we eat healthily/organic for the most part, and any "junk" is bought in moderation...I think some TCS'ers problem with food restriction is a "do as I say not as I do" approach ... for instance, mom or dad will be snacking on junk, then little johnny asks for some and they get the bs answer of "no, we want you to be healthy"....

[sassykat]

I've been researching the basic definition and explanations of TCS, and would like to know if Sarah Fitz-Claridge has children of her own.
Thanks,
sassykat

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

I am just suggesting that if all your child knows from a very early age is healthy foods and healthy foods available in the home for the most part, it is unlikely out of the blue they are going to load the cart with crap they have never even heard of or tasted.

My kids don't ask for things they have never had. But they do ask for ice cream, Joe-Joes, goldfish, and other things that I have had in the home occasionally or that they have been given while at someone else's house. I don't mind if they eat these things occasionally because they taste good and I enjoy them, too. I, however, understand the need to limit these things to occasional snacks, and my 2 and 3 year old children do not. I talk to them about healthy food choices, I talk to them about some food making our bodies grow healthy and strong and some making our bodies sick or not work well, I talk to them about how some foods that taste very good and are fun to eat are not good choices for strong, healthy bodies. My kids are very young. Learning about nutrition is a process, and in the meantime I am not going to let them stuff their faces with junk.

I am just saying I don't believe children come out of the womb craving big macs and a box of candy. This is learned behavior and I really feel that in a home that is mostly healthy, where habits are formed early, it won't be a huge issue.

For some kids it won't be. For some it will. For every kid who gets complete control over what they eat and grows up to make healthy choices, there is probably a kid who gets complete control and grows up to be a junk-food junkie. The odds are in my favor that my kids will grow up with more healthy food preferences if I steer them in that way, and that is what I do. If it means taking away six of the eight Joe-Joes and replacing them with a banana, I do that. I don't want my kids (and I don't think it's possible anyway) to be completely kept away from any and all unhealthy foods. I like junk occasionally, and I let my kids eat it occasionally. They learn to like it, just like I did as a child. They ask for it, and sometimes they get it. But not always, and not always in the quantities they desire.

Namaste!

Ps. My religious beliefs also influence my parenting, as I am sure is the case for many people here, and in my case, I am Buddhist. Buddhism is very much based on karma, or cause and effect, and lots of discussions of karma also relate it to habituation. Every action you undertake habituates you to that action. In the food example, every time you eat junk food, you are habituating, or conditioning, yourself to eat junk food. My job as a parent who is looking out for my child's karma and his or her precious human life is to help them learn to minimize negative karma and to avoid temptation and desire. I feel that I would be abdicating this extremely important religious duty if I let my kids eat whatever they wanted, in whatever quantities they desired, whenever they wanted.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by Mammo2Sammo

I am enjoying this conversation, but this kind of comment really gets to me. I mention it now simply because I have seen such responses many times before, not because I think the OP was particularly caustic.
Not everyone can handle the same kind of situations in the same way. I tried my very best to treat my baby, now toddler with a huge amount of respect in regard to sleep. (DH and I have spent countless hours trying to figure out how to help all of us in the family regarding sleep.) It bothers me when something works out smoothly (or not so smoothly) for one family, and then that family can't understand why others can't do the same. Trust me we tried really hard with the tools we had at the time.

I see this situation and other challenging parenting situations as part of a learning curve. I see the path now taking us towards a more TCS approach to sleep, rather than just a very gentle GD approach - something I believe is necessary for the emotional health of my son.

For me, part of the learning curve was figuring out that post partum hormones and lack of sleep put me into a psychotic ppd. And, lack of sleep for DH made him into a terrible, terrible grump who became useless. What I have learned is that I will take Zoloft when the new baby comes, and we will use friends more for sleeping help. (At the time, my main source of support was other new mothers - unable to help in the way I needed.)

I hope that by the time I have my fourth child, I can use all of the knowledge and experience I picked up from daily life and the wise mamas from here, to make healthy respectful choices for everyone in my family. THese type of threads certainly help me on this path.

You know, I wasn't even thinking about anyone here when I wrote that. When I post, I post from my own life, hoping something reasonates with someone.

It's what i see all the time.

This is a discussion, and a long one at that, I can barely remember who posts what, and I am absolutely not looking to pick apart frazzled AP mothers.

I do think people should stop assuming they are the only tired ones, and somehow everyone is rested, well, not on meds, and never doubting themselves. It's wholly untrue. Some people with small children might cope better, have a better support system, hide it better, drink when no one is looking, whatever. But everyone has their own ghosts.

I once again watched someone in my hsing group smack a tiny child because this parent believes her child is 'wild' and nobody can possibly understand what she is going through. She has the demon child, and the rest of us are lucky we don't.

Ah, no. Some of us decided long ago not to hit, no matter what. It's not that we are saints or are not also struggling. And *there is nothing wrong with your child!*. Mostly, it's adults with the problems and their own childhood baggage. Sadly, children don't get two childhoods. They depend on adults getting themselves somewhat straight once they can idetify their issues.

Most mothers are in the same boat, and people need to know that some of us have realized that putting a few coping mechanisms in place can help with stress. If your kid doesn't sleep, you need to figure out ways you can sleep. Is it easy? Doable? Not always, but we have to try before we put that stress on our child. It doesn't help that 'everyone else' seems to be coping so well, or that we are supposed to be afraid of everyone because everyone is a potential molester of children. This is mostly a societal problem -- a primary caregivers' needs have not biologically caught up to modern western expectations.

I hope it doesn't take any parent 4 kids to understand that being stressed to the breaking point is bad for the parent **and** worse for the children, because they are at our mercy. Bar debilitating clinical depression when we can't even function, we owe it to them to take care of ourselves and to reach out when we need to. And goddesses have mercy on the parent with no supoort at all sufferring so.

If my post has angered you to the point you might decide to care for yourself & cut yourself some slack, so be it.

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

I think it is pretty unlikely for a child who has only been fed organic, vegetarian, whole foods and vegetables and doesn't even know what an oreo is (even if they may have had one once) to come out and be like "hey mom, I want burger king!". I am not saying that this is the case 100% of the time, I am just suggesting that if all your child knows from a very early age is healthy foods and healthy foods available in the home for the most part, it is unlikely out of the blue they are going to load the cart with crap they have never even heard of or tasted.

I agree with this, until they taste them. For example, we went to visit my mom for three weeks. She stocked up on potato chips and Lucky Charms and Ritz crackers, things that I never buy. So now my dd has had them, she knows they're delicious, and she asks for them. So I have to say no. Not only because they're unhealthy, but because they're too expensive. Our food budget is too limited to buy processed foods. We will make cookies from scratch, or other goodies, but I can't afford those brand-name snacks. So am I coercing her by denying her wants so we have enough money for me to stay home? If I explained that to her, would she be able to choose which she wanted? Generic brown rice, or daycare? Frosted Flakes, or mommy?

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

Now it is a bit more difficult if you are a TCS'er who allows unlimited TV time because of course the advertising is going to be a problem. We personally watch very little television so we don't anticipate this being an issue.

Yeah, but what if your dc wants to? What if they see it at a friend's house, and know they like it? Then what do you do? Coerce them and say no? Or let them self-regulate?

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

I am just saying I don't believe children come out of the womb craving big macs and a box of candy.

I have to say, I think we do. It's our genetic makeup, we evolved to love those high-calorie, high-energy foods which were, until recently, so hard to get and yet so important for our survival.

Okay, I'm kind of arguing against TCS here, obviously, but just to find out more about it. But I have to share my example of trying it out today. We were getting ready to go to story time, and I asked my dd to go potty before we leave. This is a rule, we always have to try before we leave the house. Well, she said no, and so instead of insisting I just pointed out that we might miss part of the story if we had to get up and go pee, and if she had an accident during story time, we'd have to come home and change and we'd miss the whole thing. It worked like a charm! She made the rational choice and I didn't have to have a power struggle. I'm definitely going to try to continue integrating TCS as much as possible.

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by chinaKat

That's a rather disingenuous comment, don't you think?

I can't remember the last time I heard a three year old say "Gosh, I really shouldn't be eating this ice cream sundae, it's going to go straight to my hips."

There is clearly a difference between not understanding nutrition and not caring about it.

chinaKat

My kids knew about nutrition, in a vague way at least, at age 3. We were honest that eating too much of anything could make you feel bad, and that too much candy, pop, or french fries made the your body not work well. They sometimes made the choice to eat those things, and sometimes they did eat a little too much, but we tried to help them understand and little by little the connections were made between food=how you feel=health.

We still sometimes eat candy and chips or soda even though we know it's not great for us. We understand nutrition (for the most part anyway. I never claimed to be a dietician or nutrionist or etc) and sometimes we just do not care. As a TCS parent that is a decision my children make for themselves.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa

My kids knew about nutrition, in a vague way at least, at age 3. We were honest that eating too much of anything could make you feel bad, and that too much candy, pop, or french fries made the your body not work well. They sometimes made the choice to eat those things, and sometimes they did eat a little too much, but we tried to help them understand and little by little the connections were made between food=how you feel=health.

We still sometimes eat candy and chips or soda even though we know it's not great for us. We understand nutrition (for the most part anyway. I never claimed to be a dietician or nutrionist or etc) and sometimes we just do not care. As a TCS parent that is a decision my children make for themselves.

Parents can't decide what teenagers eat. But what i do is make what I offer as healthy as i can and have whole ingredients around so they can prepare their own food. When my kids were small, they didn't know about certain foods and never knew to ask for them. But i also let them partake in the world asi don't do that degree of food control. (My personal issue is I can't take them to fast food place-- that's way beyond my political & emotional comfort zone and they accept that fringe element of their mother. lol) ) If I know there is a lot of ' junk' available somewhere, I have been known to top them off before we leave so they are no famished and will be statisfied with a taste. This was more likely when they were little and going off to holiday parties with candy bowls and the like.

My teens and youngers make really good choices most of the time, and have become very politcal about factory farming and pesticides, so that does help them stay away from some things. I don't comment on their choices, except to suggest a bit of protein if a child looks like they are sugar or carb loading and seeming like they are going to crash. My oldest dd often needed a hard boiled egg here and there to keep her from melting.

But no way do i deny them food, no way do I even get involved in party food at this point. My 16 yr old can drive, he can have 100% control over what he puts in his mouth. All my kids can. It's not like I want him livng in my basement when he is 40 wondering if mommy would like what he's doing/eating/dating.

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by sophmama

I don't think influencing your child's eating choices equals a lifetime of them rebelling in the other direction of junk food.

Without a doubt I influence the food choices my kids make. They recognize me as a trustworthy resource for information about a variety of things, including nutrition and health. They have heard me talk about my mom's weight struggles (and my own to a lesser degree), and about how she died at 49 from complications of that. They are seeing Dh deal with diabetes right now.

They see me read food labels, and they do too. They see me eat spinach salad, homemade soup, black bean and veggie burritos, ice cream, Pepsi, and chocolate bars. They've heard me say I needed to get some more sleep because I'd not had enough lately, and they watch me make an effort to get some excersize. I do influence them. I do guide them. I do talk with them. I do help them. I do share information, opinion, experiences and struggles. But I don't force.

[FireWithin]

Originally Posted by UUMom

If my post has angered you to the point you might decide to care for yourself & cut yourself some slack, so be it.

Bothered yes, angered no. I appreciate what you say too often to feel angered about this one comment. I wrote the post because I thought this would be a good place to discuss that GD or TCS parenting can be a process that can be challenging, and full of ups and downs.

Over this past year I have figured out ways to cut myself some slack and look forward to implementing them with a new babe.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by Mammo2Sammo

Bothered yes, angered no. I appreciate what you say too often to feel angered about this one comment. I wrote the post because I thought this would be a good place to discuss that GD or TCS parenting can be a process that can be challenging, and full of ups and downs.

Over this past year I have figured out ways to cut myself some slack and look forward to implementing them with a new babe.

[babybugmama]

Thank you everyone for continuing to work so hard to keep this discussion on topic and gentle. It is very appreciated.

[dharmamama]

How might a TCSer handle this?

This situation arose this morning and, as I was handling it, I was thinking of this thread and wondering how a TCSer might handle it differently.

I allow my daughter to go out on the front porch by herself. I do not allow my son to do this because he is younger (2) and he doesn't even stay on the porch when I tell him to and I am out there with him, so I won't let him go out by himself. My dd wanted to go out and swing on the porch swing, so I said she could. My ds then wanted to go out in the backyard alone. I think he is too young to be out unsupervised, and I was right in the middle of scrubbing the toilet, so here is what I said:

"Honey, boys who are two years old are too young to be outside without their mommas or daddies." (Ds begins howling.)

"Momma is cleaning the bathroom right now, so I can't go out with you right now." (Ds continues howling.)

"If you would like to look at some books or play with your magna-doodle until I am done, then I will go out with you."

Ds, still howling, says "Noooooooo! Aubie go outside by self!"

"I know you do, honey, and when you are bigger, you can. Right now, you need to wait until Momma can go with you. What would you like to do until I can?"

Apparently, he wanted to fall on the floor and howl about the injustice of it all, because that's what he did.

I continued to make suggestions: "How about, after I finish cleaning the bathroom, I will sit on the utility porch and watch you while you go outside?"

"How about, after I clean the bathroom, I will sit in the dining room and watch you through the window?"

"How about, after I finish cleaning, we get your bike out and we can ride around the block?"

"How about you put on your dress-up clothes and when I am done cleaning, we can go out and you can do your yak dance?" (A Tibetan thing the kids love to do)

"How about if you help Momma scrub with the scrub brush while you wait?"

None of these were acceptable. My son wanted to go out in the backyard by himself right now. He's two years old, he's not very verbal, and he was dead set on doing what he wanted to do. Alternatives did not interest him.

I was not willing to let him go outside alone, unsupervised, so letting him do that was not a common preference. Neither was me leaving the bathroom half-cleaned to go supervise him.

So how would a TCSer handle something like this differently? How do TCSers accomodate their own need to limit their kids' activities based on safety considerations?

Namaste!

[abac]

Just wondering dharmamama, why couldn't you go outside with him first and clean the bathroom later instead of the other way around?

[dharmamama]

Because I had was halfway done with scrubbing the toilet, and there's no reason to stop halfway through the job just because my son wants to go outside right now. His desire to go outside is not more important than my desire to finish scrubbing the toilet, and, additionally, in our family we generally operate by the philosophy that we finish what we have started before we move on to something else. Neither my husband nor I are extremely organized people, and having that "rule" or whatever helps us avoid having half-finished things all around the house. Besides, my son didn't want me to go outside with him. He wanted to go outside by himself. When I was done scrubbing the toilet and told him we could go outside now, he refused to go because he wanted to go out by himself.

Anyway, I am not asking how I could have handled the situation differently. I am asking how a TCSer would handle it.

Namaste!

[abac]

I'm not a TCSer, but I think that in order to practice TCS, you really have to agree with the philosophy of TCS. I think part of that is believing that everyone's needs and wants are equally important and valid.

His desire to go outside is not more important than my desire to finish scrubbing the toilet

But is it equally important as your desire to finish what you're doing? I'm not sure how you feel about this. The fact that you insisted that your ds wait while you finished cleaning leads me to suspect that you consider your desire to finish cleaning more important than his desire to go outside. (I know this might not be the case, just how it seems.)

For myself and my ds I would consider a number of things. First, I consider our needs and desires equally important. Second, I consider my ability to understand that equlity, and my ability to wait. I also consider my ds's relative inability to understand the importance of my needs and desires and his inability to wait. (Of course, he'll wait if I make him wait, but he doesn't have the coping mechanisms in place yet to deal with the disappointment.) I would stop cleaning and go outside with him. (Or if he wanted to be outside alone, I would watch from the dining room window like you suggested.)

TCS doesn't say everyone has to be happy all the time, about everything, forever. TCS is treating children with equal consideration and respect, while respecting their different needs and abilities. The decision to sacrifice one's immediate wants to fulfill the desire of a child can still be a common preference. If the options are such that either my child will be screaming and unhappy, or that I must put aside my desire for a short time in order to fulfill his desire, the latter is the one I'd pick. It's a mutually agreeable solution if you deside to be agreeable about it.

[dharmamama]

I am not a TCSer and I have no desire to be one (although that doesn't mean I am not interested in how TCSers handle things). With that in mind, here are my answers to your questions.

Originally Posted by abac

I think part of that is believing that everyone's needs and wants are equally important and valid.

Yes, that's true in theory. In practice, I think that can break down very easily. Last week, my daughter was not feeling well and was lying on the family room couch, near the bathroom if she needed it, near me so that I could attend to her as needed. My son wanted to listen to a CD he listens to while jumping off the couch. That would be disturbing to my ill daughter. Is his desire to listen and jump equally as valid as her deisre to rest quietly in a convenient, comfortable space? Of course. Is it equally as important that I accomodate his desire? No, not in my opinion.

Yes, my son's desire to go outside alone right now is as valid as my desire to finish the job I started. But that doesn't mean it trumps mine and I should just have to give up doing what's important and valid to me. Had I just jumped up and taken my son outside, I would have been pre-occupied with the fact that I had a half-finished bathroom. I would not have been comfortable with that, and I would not have been happy abandoning my task, half-done. I would not have been happy with that solution. Some parents might be, and that's fine, but not me, and in TCS, EVERYONE is supposed to be happy with the solution. Dropping what I am doing and accomodating my son's desire simply because he might cry if I don't is not, to me, a good way to arrive at a common preference. And besides, I am NOT going to let my two-year-old go outside alone, no matter how much he cries. He wanted to be like his sister and go outside alone. I suppose I could have said, "Ok, go outside alone" and then watched him secretly. But that's dishonest, and when I floated the "I'll watch you form the window" suggestion, he was not satisfied with that. He wanted to go outside alone. Period. I don't think it was the "now or in five minutes" issue that upset him. It was the "not getting to be just like my sister" issue, and I was not and will not bend on that until he's older. Even when he's three, like my daughter, I don't think I will be able to let him go out alone, because he's not as thoughtful and conscientious as my daughter is and was at two. He's much more impulse-driven than she was at two.

The fact that you insisted that your ds wait while you finished cleaning leads me to suspect that you consider your desire to finish cleaning more important than his desire to go outside.

No, not the desire, but the practicality. To me it is very important to finish a job you have started. If my son were in the middle of something and I suddenly desired to go somewhere, I would respect his desire to bring his activity to conclusion. And, I do think that it is important that kids learn to prioritize desires, and in our family, finishing a job we have started before moving on to something else is a value we prioritize and wish to impart to our kids.

Second, I consider my ability to understand that equlity, and my ability to wait. I also consider my ds's relative inability to understand the importance of my needs and desires and his inability to wait.

Yes, I understand that, and maybe you are more organized and less thrown by spontaneity than I am, but I don't do well when things change quickly and tasks are left undone. That's just who I am. I become anxious and pre-occupied with the undone task. I have two kids, 3 and 2, and they ask me to do things with and for them continually throughout the day. If their desires were always prioritized above mine because they don't yet have the same ability to understand and wait that I do, then I wouldn't be able to get done the things I need and want to get done. I can't even fold a load of laundry without having to stop and wipe someone's rear end, and to me, constant interruption and changing course is very disorienting.

TCS doesn't say everyone has to be happy all the time, about everything, forever. TCS is treating children with equal consideration and respect, while respecting their different needs and abilities. The decision to sacrifice one's immediate wants to fulfill the desire of a child can still be a common preference.

Yes, it can be a common preference. But what about when it's not? What about the times when I really, honestly, can not be happy with sacrificing my desire for my child's? Should I just always give in to please my child? In my opinion, no. I think that family life, especially when there are more than one child and one adult in a family, involves balance. Sometimes I accomodate my kids. Sometimes they accomodate me. Sometimes they accomdate ecah other. Sometimes I accomodate my spouse. Sometimes he accomodates me. Recently, my dh wanted to leave the house on Saturday morning at 7 am (on my day to sleep in) so he could take the bus somewhere. I was leaving the house at 9:30 am to take the kids to a friend's party. What we decided to do was have me drop him off on my way, leaving at 8:45 instead of 9:30. That was a great solution. What would I have done if my husband had fallen on the floor and rolled around and yelled, "No, me leave at 7 by self!!" I understand that little kids don't have the patience and the understanding of the situation that adults have, but to me, part of how they learn those things is by seeing them carried out in practice, not by always having someone else bend to accomodate them.

If the options are such that either my child will be screaming and unhappy, or that I must put aside my desire for a short time in order to fulfill his desire, the latter is the one I'd pick. It's a mutually agreeable solution if you deside to be agreeable about it.

Sometimes I do put aside my desires for my child. Sometimes I don't. Had I been involved in something that would have taken me an hour to complete, I might very well have said, "Ok, I'll finish this later. Let's go outside!" (or, "Let me watch you out the window now!") Had I not been stressed about the bathroom that had not been cleaned for three weeks, because no one cleaned it while I was in Ethiopia and I didn't have the opportunity to clean it last week, I might have said, "I can finish this later." Had my mood been slightly different at the time, I might have said "I can finish this later." But this morning, those were not the conditions I found myself in, and this time, my son had to accomodate me for five minutes. Imo, it can be very difficult to find a common preference with someone who doesn't understand the other person's viewpoint and who is developmentally egocentric, and I don't think that the best way to parent is to always give in to your child just because they are little.

Namaste!

[Dar]

Another part of TCS is letting go of entrenched theories - things we believe because we've always believed them, even though we've never critically examined them. Needing to finish the bathroom because you started it might be an entrenched theory. Needing to clean the bathroom every three weeks might be an entenched theory. Your son needing to stay on the front porch to be safe might be an entenched theory.

I think the whole idea of wanting to go outside by himself is probably a result of coercion around that issue, so it may not be the best example for "what would you do?" because I don't think it would happen. It's hard to think of TCS solutions when you're still operating in a non-TCS environment...given that, though, I would try to examine some of your entrenched theories and figure out how dangerous it really would be for him to be outside, and maybe see if you can find a mutually agreeable solution for a short time period, like 2 minutes, and then you'll check on him, and then maybe another two minutes... or one minute, or 30 seconds. Maybe he'd be okay with being outside with his older sibling. Maybe he could be on the cell phone with you on the other end. Whatever. But it really needs to be a give and take, where you stretch and think critically about your beliefs, rather than just deciding out- of hand that certain things weren't acceptable to you.

And yes, you won't always be able to do things the way you want to. In the grand scheme of things, leaing the toilet half-scrubbed is just not a big deal. If you truly believe that coersion is harmful to your child, it becomes even less of a big deal, and because you don't want to harm your child, you leave the toilet.

Originally Posted by Unschoolnma

They see me eat spinach salad, homemade soup, black bean and veggie burritos, ice cream, Pepsi, and chocolate bars.

This has been making me hungry every time I read it... I want to go to your house for dinner! Those are all my favorites

Originally Posted by sassykat

I've been researching the basic definition and explanations of TCS, and would like to know if Sarah Fitz-Claridge has children of her own.

She has two daughters, I think they're probably in their late teens now? Or maybe the older one is in her early twenties? They were. I won't post their names in case she's decided not to put those out publicly, but they used to post on the TCS list occasionally. She may have had more kids since then, too, I don't know - this is as of about 1998.

Dar

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by Dar

Another part of TCS is letting go of entrenched theories - things we believe because we've always believed them, even though we've never critically examined them. Needing to finish the bathroom because you started it might be an entrenched theory. Needing to clean the bathroom every three weeks might be an entenched theory. Your son needing to stay on the front porch to be safe might be an entenched theory.

Yep, I'm sure they are entrenched theories, and I'm happy with them being that way. They go hand in hand with my entrenched theories that having lots of unfinished jobs around the house leads to a disorganized and uncomfortable environment, that smelly bathroms with dust bunnies are not pleasant places, and that children wandering into the street because they are not supervised is an unsafe situation.

I get what you are saying, Dar, but I'm also not comfortable living in a "question everything" environment. I need more order and stability than that.

I think the whole idea of wanting to go outside by himself is probably a result of coercion around that issue, so it may not be the best example for "what would you do?" because I don't think it would happen.

Sorry, I DON'T get what you're saying here. He wanted to go outside by himself because his sister was outside by herself and, as the little brother, he wants to do the same thing she does so he can be like her. I'm not sure where coercion comes into that, and I kinda resent the idea that somehow I have misparented my child just because he wanted to go outside alone.

In the grand scheme of things, leaing the toilet half-scrubbed is just not a big deal. If you truly believe that coersion is harmful to your child, it becomes even less of a big deal, and because you don't want to harm your child, you leave the toilet.

But see, it's not just about the toilet. It's not about isolated incidents. It's about how life in general fits together, and if I add up all the half-scrubbed toilets and half-folded baskets of laundry and half-vaccuumed carpets and half-cooked meals, that becomes a major part of my life, not just an isolated incident. And anyway, I don't believe that coercion the way it is defined in TCS is harmful to a child.

Bowing out now because, like I said, I'm not a TCSer and I don't want to be a TCSer so I probably have nothing more valuable to add! I am, however, interested in reading about what you meant by the "go outside by himself is the result of coercion" comment.

Namaste!