What's TCS? - Page 2

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by Dar

Sending your children to school when they'd rather not be there is not compatible with TCS. You're already coercing them for 8 hours a day. OTOH, if you can find a school that your child wants to go to, then it could work.

Okay, say they like it four of five days of the week. Do you let them stay home? What if you have to go to work, and so they can't stay home alone? Isn't it dp's responsibility to help your child develop self-control, a very important skill that takes lots and lots of practice to master.

Also, like the pp said, how does it work for little kids? For example, today my dd was pouring water out of the bathtub onto the floor. I assume she wanted to see what would happen, but I didn't want her to. I coerced her into stopping, I guess, because I asked her not to. When she continued to do it, I took away the cup. What would a TCS parent have done in this situation?

[UnschoolnMa]

Before I go on let me just say that much of my experiences with this would match Dar's posts here. I will just say that now rather than quote her followed by excessive :tup LOL. Her Dd is just a bit older than mine if memory serves too.

Originally Posted by natensarah

Okay, say they like it four of five days of the week. Do you let them stay home?

Yes I would. Of course the school may take issue with that, and there would be that to discuss.

What if you have to go to work, and so they can't stay home alone?

Then you discuss that with the child. I assume since we are talking about school we are talking about a child who is around 6 at least right? I think even young children can take part in these kinds of conversations. Perhaps you could find a sitter for that day? (I realize this is not always easy) Or a few sitters that would trade off. Maybe the child would enjoy going somewhere else instead of school that day...like a child care center or some other program. A parent might work from home that day, or see if bringing the child along was an option. There is no one right answer here obviously.

Isn't it dp's responsibility to help your child develop self-control, a very important skill that takes lots and lots of practice to master.

Sure parents are there to help children learn things. TCS isn't at odds with that as far as I know. I might have missed what you were responding to with this statement though.

For example, today my dd was pouring water out of the bathtub onto the floor. I assume she wanted to see what would happen, but I didn't want her to. I coerced her into stopping, I guess, because I asked her not to. When she continued to do it, I took away the cup. What would a TCS parent have done in this situation?

I would probably have said " Wow the floor is getting really wet. Do you like pouring the water?" If the floor being wet was a problem for me I might have asked about other ways we could play with and pour the water. I might offer some suggestions, or just start playing myself.

Things like measuring cups, a plastic bowl or a funnel, turkey baster or squirt gun could be interesting. I might put two big bowls or pots on the floor for her to pour into. Then when we were all done I would just say that some water got on the floor and would she like to wipe it up (not sure of your Dd's age?) with me. The key would be to work together to find the things that work.

[Dar]

Yeah, or throw a big towel onto the floor and let her pour... it's just water, really.

When my daughter was little (and I was most active on the TCS list when she was 3-5; I haven't been on it now for years) her wants were simpler. It was more about offering alternatives that were more acceptable to me, and than she would chose one that she liked better than what she was doing that I didn't like. I also did a lot of creative problem solving... I think there was a 6 month period when I didn't change her diapers when she was lying down, because she hated that. I got good at changing her while she was standing, and for poopy diapers I'd stand her in the bathtub and swish her off while she played with the water.

Communication with a young child is generally not about words as much, but about actions...

Isn't it dp's responsibility to help your child develop self-control, a very important skill that takes lots and lots of practice to master.

I don't think controlling a child is the most effective way to help her learn self-control... I mean, feeding a child isn't the best way to help them learn self-feeding, right?

TCS children learn what is modeled. They see their parents working to find non-coercive, mutually-agreeable solutions, and they pick up these values. The youngest TCS kids are often amazing problem-solvers, because they're so used to this as a way to resolve issues.

TCS children have control over their own actions, unlike most children, and therefore they always have self-control. Because they're controlling their own actions, they can see directly the effects these actions have on others and the world.

Dar

[Fuamami]

I would probably have said " Wow the floor is getting really wet. Do you like pouring the water?" If the floor being wet was a problem for me I might have asked about other ways we could play with and pour the water. I might offer some suggestions, or just start playing myself.

Things like measuring cups, a plastic bowl or a funnel, turkey baster or squirt gun could be interesting. I might put two big bowls or pots on the floor for her to pour into. Then when we were all done I would just say that some water got on the floor and would she like to wipe it up (not sure of your Dd's age?) with me. The key would be to work together to find the things that work. [/QUOTE]

Okay, I see what you're saying. And probably 95% of the time I would do something like that. But last night dh was working late and I was trying to get ds ready for bed, and just didn't feel willing to take the time to come up with an alternative for her. So I guess I can see how you could do it, and how it would really work well for some families, but I'm just not willing to give up the power of veto.

I think what I originally thought this meant was that you would never try to dissuade dc or offer alternatives. Like if your four-year-old said, "I'm going to 'insert destructive behavior here'", you'd just have to grin and bear it. That was why I made the comment about self-control.

[octobermom]

Yeah, or throw a big towel onto the floor and let her pour... it's just water, really.

Yea untill you realize that the excess water you childs spilling (in this case from splashing in the bath) is warping the foor and the landloard comes and hands you the bill for the damage. (not us happended to my brother)
There are points to TCS I really like but its just not an overall parenting style I personally care to embrace. I tend to fall more into a child led parent dirrected way, but thats us.

Deanna

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by natensarah

So I guess I can see how you could do it, and how it would really work well for some families, but I'm just not willing to give up the power of veto.

Most parents aren't , and that's fine too.

I think what I originally thought this meant was that you would never try to dissuade dc or offer alternatives. Like if your four-year-old said, "I'm going to 'insert destructive behavior here'", you'd just have to grin and bear it.

Sometimes my kids have done destructive things, and I have not stopped them. I have discussed what would happen as a result of the behavior though. (item would be ruined or broken resulting in it no longer being functional or fun, a mess, a possible safety hazard, anger from someone if they are bieng destructive to someone elses things, etc) and I have offered alternatives.

[Dar]

Originally Posted by natensarah

Okay, I see what you're saying. And probably 95% of the time I would do something like that. But last night dh was working late and I was trying to get ds ready for bed, and just didn't feel willing to take the time to come up with an alternative for her. So I guess I can see how you could do it, and how it would really work well for some families, but I'm just not willing to give up the power of veto.

It *is* hard work. With young children especially, I think it's one of the hardest ways to parent. It's must easier to just say, "No" or move the child or whatever. In the long term, though, I think it's easier. I know Unschoolnma's kids and mine are all about the same age, like from 11-14, and that's just not an age range most parents enjoy... but I truly find it to be a true pleasure 99.9% of the time... we rarely argue over stuff. We just don't, because we have 12+ years of working towards mutually agreeable solutions.

Originally Posted by octobermom

Yea untill you realize that the excess water you childs spilling (in this case from splashing in the bath) is warping the foor and the landloard comes and hands you the bill for the damage. (not us happended to my brother)

The point isn't whether or not that particular solution would work for any particular person (it was a great solution for us when Rain was little, because we lived in Arizona where everything was dry as a bone, so nothing warped). The point is that there *are* other "outside the box" solutions, if you look for them.

Dar

[octobermom]

T

he point isn't whether or not that particular solution would work for any particular person (it was a great solution for us when Rain was little, because we lived in Arizona where everything was dry as a bone, so nothing warped). The point is that there *are* other "outside the box" solutions, if you look for them.

Dar

Oh don't worry I know we do a lot of out of the box solutions I'm huge on playfull parenting.. I was just pointing out for some things like "its only water" is a big deal for others its not. We make around $14,000 a year so moneys very tight and we rent so we for us we find we do need to set more limits I'm completlely not willing to allow our dd to destroy toys or risk damage to our home and risk fines we cannot afford. However if I found my DD pouring wate on the floor I also wouldn't be yelling or ranting that she was a bad child. I probably would have just redirrected her to dump into the bath tub probably making a game out of it and brought in diffrent containers sponges etc to experment with and stayed with her to make sure water did stay inside.
One thing that I think is at the core of being a GD parent (TCS or Parent dirrected) is respect and grace. We just approach this from slightly diffrent POV.
Oh and kinda OT but I live in Yuma AZ so quite familier with the dry weather :LOL It was 104 this afternoon

Deanna

[Aurora88]

i think one thing about tcs that isn't being addressed here is that it is supposed to be about (briefly) finding a "common preference". if the parent is opposed, it is not a common preference! tcs theorists operate under the assumption that there is always a common preference (perhaps a third alternative that both parties want more) and we are just not swift enough to think of one. failing to reach a common pref and just doing nothing (not coercing) is bad too. the deal-breakers for me with tcs are the idea that if no common pref can be found, then defer to the child; and the idea that children are rational beings (rational being defined in their own tcs way - lots of words are being defined in a different-than-conventional way in tcs theory). overall though i find that being Less Coercive is something that feels right to us while being Non Coercive is a beautiful thing when one can achieve it, but it is not always achievable nor even always desirable in our family structure...OTOH,TCS definitely helps in exercising the creative solution part of ourselves and our children! Children can come up with the most amazing alteratives - even really little , irrational ;-) ones.
Aurora

[johub]

Yeah,
I find that to be a sticker for me too.
I do respect children and value their experience, opinion and feelings etc. . . but I do not beleive them to be fully rational (or even biologically capable of being so most of the time due to incomplete brain development), nor have the life experience necessary to guide their decision making.
I think the process where parents guide decision making while gradually passing on the responsibility as children mature makes most sense for me.
I dont knock TCS and other styles like it, but after serious consideration, they are not for me.
joline

[AntoninBeGonin]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for posting and trying to answer me. I went to the TCS main website and from reading it I've come to the conclusion that it's a philosophy about relating to children. From what I gathered they are proponents of treating children with the exact same respect and courtesy you'd show an adult. For example, you'd let an adult completely finish his thought (sentence), or you'd allow her the right to refuse something unwanted. It makes sense to me, and truth be told, I was planning to raise my son like that anyhow :LOL I didn't realize it had a fancy name. Now I can look impressive and tell people, "Why yes, we're raising our son TCS, AP, and probably even UP."

~Nay

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by Dar

It *is* hard work. With young children especially, I think it's one of the hardest ways to parent. It's must easier to just say, "No" or move the child or whatever.

Oh definately. I'd never make the case that TCS is easy, particularly with the wee ones. It takes time and all that jazz.

In the long term, though, I think it's easier. I know Unschoolnma's kids and mine are all about the same age, like from 11-14, and that's just not an age range most parents enjoy... but I truly find it to be a true pleasure 99.9% of the time... we rarely argue over stuff. We just don't, because we have 12+ years of working towards mutually agreeable solutions.

Exactly. Our kids are right smack in that age range most parents totally dread, and yet we have none of the behaviors associated with that dread happening. TCS does pay off (though that's not my sole reason for parenting that way) It creates an environment and relatonships that have trust and respect.

[obiandelismom]

One thing I worry about, with younger kids, anyway, is that TCS is asking kids to control themselves TOO much. Say ds wants to jump off the roof. In his mind, it's rational - he's jumped off things before, and had lots of fun. Higher place = more fun, right? So I tell him all the reasons why that's not a good idea, and all the ways he might get hurt, and maybe I drop a pumpkin off the roof as an illustration, and he decides to not pursue the roof-jumping. But he knows, in his 4yo heart, that *I* didn't stop him. Wouldn't that be anxiety-producing? Isn't it too much to lay on 4yo shoulders? Sometimes I think about how safe and secure and CONTAINED I felt as a kid - how great it was to know that I *wasn't* completely in charge of myself. As an adult, sure, it would drive me nuts if my dh (or anyone else) told me what to do. But as a kid I loved knowing that my mom and dad would protect me from myself when necessary.

[johub]

Originally Posted by obiandelismom

One thing I worry about, with younger kids, anyway, is that TCS is asking kids to control themselves TOO much. Say ds wants to jump off the roof. In his mind, it's rational - he's jumped off things before, and had lots of fun. Higher place = more fun, right? So I tell him all the reasons why that's not a good idea, and all the ways he might get hurt, and maybe I drop a pumpkin off the roof as an illustration, and he decides to not pursue the roof-jumping. But he knows, in his 4yo heart, that *I* didn't stop him. Wouldn't that be anxiety-producing? Isn't it too much to lay on 4yo shoulders? Sometimes I think about how safe and secure and CONTAINED I felt as a kid - how great it was to know that I *wasn't* completely in charge of myself. As an adult, sure, it would drive me nuts if my dh (or anyone else) told me what to do. But as a kid I loved knowing that my mom and dad would protect me from myself when necessary.

Beautifully put. I also grew up feeling comforted and safe with the knowledge that there were boundaries beyond I could not go but within I had a great deal of freedom. I seek to give the same to my children.

[UnschoolnMa]

See to me it isn't so much that he knows in his 4 year old heart that you didn't stop him, but that you value him enough to share with him why it wouldn't be a good idea as opposed to just forbidding something flat out. You gave honest and clear reasons as to why jumping off a roof would be a problem and he, even at 4, can see why the reasons behind "because it's not safe" instead of just hearing it. Of course this comes from someone who helped her Ds find a way to safely jump off a counter once so ...

[famousmockngbrd]

Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa

You gave honest and clear reasons as to why jumping off a roof would be a problem and he, even at 4, can see why the reasons behind "because it's not safe" instead of just hearing it.

But, if he still wanted to jump off the roof even after hearing the reasons why he shouldn't, you'd step in and prevent him from doing it, right?

[kaydee]

Originally Posted by obiandelismom

One thing I worry about, with younger kids, anyway, is that TCS is asking kids to control themselves TOO much. .

I feel a bit that way too. There is so much research showing that children's brains are different from adult brains, in terms of impulse control and much more. So treating them exactly like adults in terms of expecting them to make the same sorts of informed choices doesn't make total sense to me. Not that that means kids shouldn't be respected (and not that all adults are great at impulse control! ) but I always wondered how TCS addressed the issue of developmental abilities and brain development....

[Rivka5]

Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama

To be honest, in my experience, frequently TCS comes across as a little aggressive, shaming and name-calling, on the main website at least. [...]While I'm all about individual rights - the tone of the main website (the above article on carseats was written by David Deutsch) is sort of um...not for me.

Yeah, somehow I don't want to learn all about how to be more respectful and consensus-seeking from people who are that abusively sarcastic.

[Dar]

I haven't been part of the official TCS group since 1997 or 1998, so I can't really help with that part...

The thing is, kids don't want to experience death or painful injuries. No rational person does, and kids are rational. So if a kid really wants to jump off the room, either he's behaving very irrationally (either due to coercion or serious mental or neurological illness) or else he doesn't really understand the danger. If he's behaving irrationally due to past coercion, then you may need to continue using some coercive tactics while transitioning to TCS, but I would keep them to a minimum and use them only is extreme situations like this. If the child is ill, then he needs medical care. And if he doesn't understand, the parent's job is to help him to understand. When my daughter was 4, one of the things she and her TCSed friends loved to do was jump from the top bunk of a bunk bed to the floor, which they covered with pillows and foam pads. They had great fun, and they all figured out how to jump safely (kids were 4, 4, 7, 9, and 11). I think after that experience, they would have all been reluctant to jump off the roof, because they had that first-hand experience with jumping from a high place.

So, if my young child wanted to jump off the roof, I wouldn't simply give her a bunch of reasons why it wasn't a good idea. With young children, experiences are much more effective than words. If bunk beds weren't available, perhaps a rock-climbing wall, or a high diving board at a pool. The process of finding a mutually agreeable solution isn't over until there is a solution found.

I do think children's brains and adults' brains work differently, but I don't think that means TCS can't work (well, I know it can, because I've seen it). Little kids usually want little things. They aren't old enough to understand the ins and outs of, say, moving out on their own and living in New York City, but they don't want to do that, either. They want juice to drink, or to be carried. They aren't generally in dangerous situations, so their impules aren't potentially dangerous. A parent's job is to keep a child's environment safe for that child, and rational children - most children - are fine with that.

Dar

[momsgotmilk4two]

Originally Posted by famousmockngbrd

I was talking to a friend today about this and she brought up the good point that TCS sounds like it would work much better with older children than with younger kids. I just can't see having the exchange Dar describes with a two year old. How do you use TCS with preschoolers?

It also seems to me from posts on the topic here and at another site, that it works better with only children and with fairly easy going children. I can see that. I can see how this would work really well with an only child. We don't have a lot of situations here where I absolutely have to put my foot down and say "we're going now" because my kids are generally happy to go do whatever it is we've got planned, sometimes with a little discussion first. There are certain things that I just don't allow though. Like namecalling and hitting. The only hitting we've had any issues with are between the siblings.

As far as dangerous situations go, for some reason I got kids that aren't real big risk takers. I've never had one try to jump out in front of a car. If we're riding bikes out in the carport and a car comes and I see it, they don't, I say, "car!" and they move out of the way right away. I agree with the person who said that most kids aren't out trying to kill themselves :LOL With a pre verbal toddler, I'd just pick them up and move them out of harm's way. I'm not TCS so I'm not sure if that's the TCS way or not though. I try to practice GD and am learning more about it, but with my oldest I am still using puntitive punishments like removing priveledges.