at what point is breech a concern?

[sahm]

I am 24 weeks and I'm assuming that the baby is still head up because I feel kicks down low. I know that at this stage, the baby is still little and can do acrobats in there, so it's not yet a concern that it's not head down. But my question is, when does the baby typically move into a head down position. I know that it can happen right up to labour as many people can attest to, but I'm just wondering at what point most babies do turn head down and at what point I should start thinking about looking into exercies or other non-invasive techniques of turning the baby?

[brett]

It isn't unusual for a baby to be breech at this point. Before 28 weeks, 25% of babies are breech, and most turn by 36 weeks on their own. Only about 5% of babies are breech at 36 weeks. If you want I can give you some info on preventative measures you can use, but I wouldn't be concerned at this point. Has your midwife or doctor felt the baby and determined what position it is in? Because feeling movement low doesn't necessarily mean the baby is breech. Hope that helps, my statistics are from Anne Frye's Holistic Midwifery Vol. 1.

[DiaperDiva]

Even if your baby is breech at delivery doesn't neccessarily mean there is a need for concern. Breech babies cn be born vaginally as well, without any extra effort of medical intervention.

[guestmama9924]

Re: at what point is breech a concern?

Originally posted by sahm
I am 24 weeks

My 2nd was still breech at 32 weeks. The chances lessen that baby will turn after 32 weeks, and I was planning a homebirth ...SO

I swam all day, did pelvic tilts under water and I litterally stayed up all night doing visualization .

At about 4 am I could feel her turning, and it was painful and fabulous at the same time.

My midwife checked me 2 days later and I was right, she had turned.

[Pema's Father]

Greetings Diaper Diva, Brett, and all mamas and papas,

Perhaps you can help me find more information on breech related issues. Diaper Diva: You mentioned that breech presentation does not rule out vaginal birth. I have read this also, but I forgot where and our midwife said due to insurance restrictions, if our baby (Pema Karpo is at 36.5 weeks inside of my wife, Upel), does not turn by the time of delivery, we would have no choice but to go to the hospital for a c-section. I think there is another choice, but I need more information to make it an informed choice.

I am still hopeful that in the next 3.5 weeks, Pema will turn. We are trying almost everything except for swimming because Upel is afraid of water and does not know how to swim. Nonetheless, I am trying to prepare for what is a growing possibility - a baby that is still breech at term.

We live in Seattle which is where you may be able to help Brett, since you express an interest in midwifery. Do you know any experienced midwives who would consider a vaginal delivery? You can send me a pm on this if you prefer.

I even emailed The Farm but they seemed a bit reluctant to consider helping us beyond giving some useful advice. (I imagine they too must be careful, and they probably receive a lot of inquiries.). I have considered going to British Columbia, Canada.

I am also interested in any opinions or reflections you, or anyone may have on the ethical issues involved. E.g. the risks of vaginal breech delivery (to the extent they are known), to baby and mother, versus the trauma to mother and baby of extreme medical interventions such as cesarean.

Thank you for your help,
jordan

[cottonwood]

Here is a link where you might find some useful information:

http://www.gentlebirth.org/archives/breechbr.html

As for finding midwives who are comfortable attending breeches, I would just start doing some calling around, and every midwife you talk to who will not do a breech ask if she can suggest anyone who might. Also try La Leche League. And if you are considering going as far as BC, why not try south (i.e., Oregon)?

[Pema's Father]

thank you

Thank you Blue Violet.

[kama'aina mama]

Keep trying. The odds get better in your favor every week. Try moxibustion and chiropractic.

As an aside, how close was your dear wife to her due date with your first child?

I really feel your concern, I was 38 weeks and breech when I opted for a very painful (and dangerous) external version. I got lucky (and a little brave) and it worked, so I had the homebirth I dreamed of. My heart is with your family and I truly wish you all the best.

[Pema's Father]

Thanks Kama'aina Mama,

This is Upel's first child (36.5 weeks)....my first child too. Today is a new day. I just got an email from a dear friend who said he and his brother were both born breech (#1 and #2 children) from their mother.

And of course, we will keep trying. We will try to make an appointment with the chiropracter today. Meanwhile, we are slowly dissolving layers of fear and attachment (the unhealthy Buddhst version of attachment based on ignorance).

It is all happening for a reason, and thank you for your prayers,

[guestmama9924]

deleted my double post!

[Pema's Father]

New father thinking out loud:

In contemplating a vaginal breech birth, my greatest concern would be one of the unexpected complications such as cord wrapped around baby's neck, placental abruption, and severe hemmorhage from mother, or strangulation of baby, etc. I am told that cord wrapped around neck, for example, often does not show up on ultrasound. I just got an email from a good friend in France who is also a new dad and he said that both he and his brother - #1 and #2 child of his mom - were breech births.

I have heard that the time factor in dealing with unexpected complications at birth can be a matter of minutes (life or death) but I'm not very clear on this. Hypothetically, if we had a lay midwife come to our apartment one of these complications arose, we are only six blocks from a major hospital with ER facilities. They even have midwives working in this hospital. I think we could reasonably get to the emergency room in somewhere between three and ten minutes. Would it be feasible to transport if for example, baby's head was stuck inside the cervix. The feet and butt would sort of be dangling out. Any opinions here? Would there be enough time?

I am guessing that the midwives will want to schedule an external version right away (by Thursday?) if Pema Karpo is still breech tomorrow. Mostly I've heard that the EV is safe (though not always painless) when baby is under continuous monitoring for stress, the doctor is experienced and gentle, and mother is relaxed. Though I hear a lot of mixed opinions on EV's from the moms at MDC. And I do agree that from the fetal perspective, it certainly can not be described as "non-invasive". Not much time to decide. Meanwhile, we are off to the chiros office in a bit, and will go look for the pulsatilla this morning.


[quote]

[Pema's Father]

A few further thoughts - If we are compelled to choose c-section, what implications does this have for the breast feeding relationship. How soon can mother nurse? How long can baby wait for their first feeding? Is it critical to get the colustrum from the biological mother first? What about the possibility of finding a wet nurse - is this ever done? Can anyone please give any feedback on these questions. thank you,

[velveeta]

Jordan,

First of all... BIG to you and your wife! I know it is really stressful for you. I have seen you all over these boards trying to get as much info as you can before the birth. You remind me of me!

Whatever happens, it will be the right thing for your family. I think that your baby's birth is going to go just perfectly. You have so much love, how can it not? Perfect may not be what you have envisioned, but it will still be magical and it will transform you.

I wish I had specific advice to offer about breech birth. At 27 weeks, our baby is still breech, and if he doesn't turn, I am still going ahead with our planned home waterbirth.

If you end up going to the hospital, there was a reason for that, too. (That may also happen with me, and if it does -- oh, well).

Your baby is being born into a loving family no matter what -- remember that!


Jean

[Dodo]

Hi Pema's Father. I'm sorry to hear that you and your wife are in this stressful situation.

Two weeks ago, my SIL had a c-section. Her baby was complete breech because of a heart-shaped uterus.

I've been reading up on her condition and on c-sections in general, as well as discussing her situation with fellow birth junkies. One friend, an unassisted birther with great confidence in the birthing process, had a really interesting viewpoint. She felt that my nephew was in the breech position because it was the optimal position for him to be in.

I don't know if that helps you, but it is an outlook that I find uplifting.

Last week I spoke with another friend, a woman who had an external version at 35 weeks to turn her breech baby. Unfortunately, she fell into the 1% of women who spontaneously go into labour after a version. Her little one was born early by c-section. At the birth it was discovered that the umbilical cord was only six inches long. Again, a case of a baby being breech with good reason.

Anyway, my intention is to give you confidence in your baby, not to scare you, but I'm not sure if I'm succeeding...

I hope that you and your wife have a safe, happy birth.

[Pema's Father]

Thanks for that jeanvanzyl, especially the part about love. One of my teachers advised me in a similar way...don't hold too tightly to the "ideal vision" of your birth. Be flexible. A loving family can repair almost any damage. Love is the most important thing in bringing a baby into the world.

I am still curious though if anyone can speak to my question about breastfeeding IF mother has a c-section. Thanks..

[guestmama9924]

A c-section mother can breastfeed, but often it does get off to a rocky start. Even if mother has an awake operation with a spinal, often strong sedatives are given after in recovery. Often the baby is shown briefly to the parents, and taken to the nursery while the mother is closed up and recovered ( approx 2 hours +)Then the baby is brought to the mother when she is moved to a room and she can begin breastfeeding. Sometimes the baby is allowed to nurse in recovery depending on the drugs used.
But in the mean time, mom has just had major surgery and is in pain. Baby needs a feed so the nursery staff feeds with a bottle.

The colostrum will be there for about 3 days, so no worries about that. Many c/section moms notice that milk coming in is delayed for up to a week.

Maybe inquire on the breastfeeding boards about what some moms found helpful in the hospital.

I have only had a vaginal hospital and a vaginal homebirth, but am a doula and this is what I see with some of my c-section clients. HOpe it helps.

[kama'aina mama]

I'm sorry... I was reading quickly and it was late. I think I blended KeysMama's comment about her 2nd being breech with your post.

Your idea to prepare for the possibility of a C-birth is a good one. There is lots of good info about writing a plan for a C-birth on this forum and at VBAC. It is quite possible to establish a good nursing relationship after ceasarean. Some women are already nursing while they are being sutured. You need to discuss your priorities with your doctor.

[Pema's Father]

Thank you Kama'aina Mama, KeysMama, and Dodo,

I just called a women's care center near here and at first was elated when they said they would be willing to deliver a breech baby, but then upon further checking, this turned out not to be true.

If I had more time to discuss with you about what seems to be unfair interference into womens health by insurance companies, I would. But I don't have time now, and maybe you don't either. Now, I am just trying to stay present and prepare for many different birth scenarios while continuously monitoring my own mind to see if I am holding on to any expectation of our preferences, and letting go of them when I see this.

Just heard yesterday about an old friend who died unexpectedly - a woman and mother in her early fifties. Life is still a pretty good deal in spite of any difficulties. Now to take a short afternoon nap....

[Dodo]

How to have an empowered c/s

Here's a link that might help you prepare for a surgical birth:

http://www.birthlove.com/free/anatomy.html

Edited to say that I guess you have to be a birthlove member to access the articles on keeping power in a c/s.

I haven't had a c/s, but if I were to, I would insist that my dh stick to the baby like glue. I would want him to warm the baby with his body (no isolette). I would want him to refuse the eye goo and the Vit K. I would want him to stay at the hospital for at least the first 24 hours so that my baby would not be taken to the nursery.

Maybe you should speak to one of the moms of multiples (e.g., Laralou) or Piglet68 about their planned sections. They should have really good advice.

[cottonwood]

In the same vein:

http://www.eheart.com/cesarean/oliver.html