Red Raspberry Leaf Tea tribe - Page 93

[Wilhelmina]

I'm already 37 weeks and some days, so I'm way late in the game, but I wouldn't take any herbs in a tea form (except a nettle and roobois) before being full-term anyway, just because of my personal fear of going into pre-term labor, but now I'm seriously thinking of starting to drink some of the RRL tea.  I am scared of labor, of course, as this is my first child ... I also received homeopathic pills containing Arnica and Blue Cohosh.  I will definitely take the Arnica during labor, but I'm unsure about Blue Cohosh (it just sounds a little scary when I read about it).  Do you think I should either do RRL tea OR Blue Cohosh - not mix the two together?  Does anyone have an opinion on the topic?

I don't want to overdo it or risk anything ... but mainly, I don't want to risk protracted labor and possible induction/c-section.

Thanks

[Beauchamp]

Originally Posted by Wilhelmina 

I'm already 37 weeks and some days, so I'm way late in the game, but I wouldn't take any herbs in a tea form (except a nettle and roobois) before being full-term anyway, just because of my personal fear of going into pre-term labor, but now I'm seriously thinking of starting to drink some of the RRL tea.  I am scared of labor, of course, as this is my first child ... I also received homeopathic pills containing Arnica and Blue Cohosh.  I will definitely take the Arnica during labor, but I'm unsure about Blue Cohosh (it just sounds a little scary when I read about it).  Do you think I should either do RRL tea OR Blue Cohosh - not mix the two together?  Does anyone have an opinion on the topic?

I don't want to overdo it or risk anything ... but mainly, I don't want to risk protracted labor and possible induction/c-section.

Thanks

No expert, but RRL tea does not cause preterm labor as far as I know-- it strengthens the uterus muscle. Unless you MW/doctor specifically tells you to NOT use it, I would think you'd be fine. Women have been using RRL tea for a looong time (hundreds...thousands? of years!) If anything, the tea will help your uterus work more efficiently, push more efficiently, and get the baby out easier/faster, which will help you AVOID a c-section!

I'd think at 37 weeks you are safe to drink up, mama!

[MovingMomma]

I've only heard of people taking arnica after labor, not during.  RRL tones the uterus, it doesn't start labor, and I've never heard any concerns about it causing a protracted labor.  Any concerns are more in the opposite direction.

[sharita]

Originally Posted by egmaranian 

thanks so much for this link!  I think I'm going to order this one too.  How large was your custom order and how much did it cost?  I'd like to contact her to do the same.
 

I paid 18.00 (I think 22 after shipping) for 4 oz by weight which I was worried wouldn't be a large amount but it was.  After I got it and realized not only was it more than I though, but it was super packed so when I transferred it to an airtight jar, it was even more.  Also after making a few batches now (about a tbs per cup, though directions say tsp per cup) I know it will last.  She also does 8 oz for 36.00.  The tea is not only great tasting but pretty and smells great.  Its so colorful and aromatic, I could almost use it as poppouri, lol.

[Beauchamp]

The original labor infusion says one ounce of leaves in one pint of boiling water. Semi-firmly packed for me, one ounce of leaves is about one cup of leaves. I spooned them in and used the spoon to pack them down a bit. So, one cup of leaves over one pint (16 oz or 2 cups) is the labor infusion recipe.

Is this about right?

[Wilhelmina]

Originally Posted by Beauchamp 

Originally Posted by Wilhelmina 

I'm already 37 weeks and some days, so I'm way late in the game, but I wouldn't take any herbs in a tea form (except a nettle and roobois) before being full-term anyway, just because of my personal fear of going into pre-term labor, but now I'm seriously thinking of starting to drink some of the RRL tea.  I am scared of labor, of course, as this is my first child ... I also received homeopathic pills containing Arnica and Blue Cohosh.  I will definitely take the Arnica during labor, but I'm unsure about Blue Cohosh (it just sounds a little scary when I read about it).  Do you think I should either do RRL tea OR Blue Cohosh - not mix the two together?  Does anyone have an opinion on the topic?

I don't want to overdo it or risk anything ... but mainly, I don't want to risk protracted labor and possible induction/c-section.

Thanks

No expert, but RRL tea does not cause preterm labor as far as I know-- it strengthens the uterus muscle. Unless you MW/doctor specifically tells you to NOT use it, I would think you'd be fine. Women have been using RRL tea for a looong time (hundreds...thousands? of years!) If anything, the tea will help your uterus work more efficiently, push more efficiently, and get the baby out easier/faster, which will help you AVOID a c-section!

I'd think at 37 weeks you are safe to drink up, mama!

According to many sources - coming from the medical community especially - RRL tea is not to be used during pregnancy, especially before the 37th week because of the possibility of it stimulating the uterus and bringing on premature labor. I guess we could discuss forever whether that is true or not ...  And since I was worried about it already, I didn't want to do something that I would later on regret doing ....  If that makes any sense.  I've always been a very hippie-like herb-loving person that tried natural remedies before anything else, but now, that a little baby is involved, I am not ready to take the possible risk.  However, now that I'm well full-term, I'm thinking I can finally - with a clear conscience - try some herbs.  I'm opting for homeopathics as the dillution level of the herbs is so high, but RRL tea has been so well-recommended that I'm willing to try it on top of the homeopathics ... or maybe in their stead.

I am a worry worm, in short :)  I'd be stoked if I could talk to someone that used homeopathics in labor (namely blue cohosh and arnica).

Thanks for a reply :)

[EnchantedMamma]

I'm not an herbalist by any stretch, but I know arnica is used topically for sore muscle relief.

I am pretty sure it was given to me after a rough labor with the idea that it helps with all the swelling and strain and aching... I would think that it's not related to encouraging labor, but rather being a support measure for during/after labor.

As for the cohoshes... I'm thinking I don't like the idea of a tincture but might look into the homepathic versions. I too would love to hear more about the safety - for the baby.

If I can't find anything reassuring I'll continue drinking RRL and then doing a moderate Castor Oil dose when the time comes.

I HAVE noticed that my Braxton Hicks are very strong this time around. I wonder if that's the RRL? I can actually feel a pretty serious 'squeezing' sensation in some of them, which I don't really recall much in my previous (first) pregnancy.

[DanelleB]

From what I understand, it's common for BH contx to be more frequent/stronger during a second pregnancy. 

[DanielleT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanelleB 

From what I understand, it's common for BH contx to be more frequent/stronger during a second pregnancy. 

I didn't have BH Contx at all with my first two pregnancies; this time i have been drinking RLT since 2nd tri and sure enough im getting BH all the time...they are manageable and i've never found them to be anything more than uncomfortable...But if it's going to make labor at all shorter it is well worth it....

[comadrona]

Hope I don't offend anyone with this but...I must take issue with the assumption that RRL tea or tablets will produce a better labor. There is NO research which confirms this. Women's experiences are variable and can be attributed to other factors such as parity (number of babies you've had), genetics (women often imitate their mothers in labor and birth style, though this too is totally anecdotal) and fear factor, plus luck. I am by no means anti-herbal, I love Spirulina, for instance, as it produces measurable increases in Hemoglobin levels and boosts women's well-being. But it bothers me a lot that women attribute a "good" birth to RRL when, in all probability, they would have had it anyway.

If you look back over the posts you will see a number of women had negative experiences in spite of taking it, and there is no standard dosage, or time frame to take it. This wouldn't matter except that obviously thousands of women don't trust their bodies to get the job done, and there is an awful lot of fear surrounding the birth process. And I get irritated by the belief in the supposed effect that RRL supposedly has on uterine functions - Braxton Hicks contractions are universal but sometimes are strong (often due to baby's position that day) or not detectable. This has nothing to do with RRL. And premature birth - if RRL really worked, it would either be on the poisons register for bringing on preterm labor or we wouldn't need the induction drugs we are currently using in hospitals!

In my view we should forget about specifics like RRL and concentrate on the things we know work - superb nutrition, exercise and rest and optimal fetal positioning. The women I care for get good education and learn to assume that their body will deliver the goods on the day, all things being equal. Of course, in the Western medical system you are very likely to have fear and interference in your labor and birth, best avoided by staying away from hospital as long as possible. RRL may work because of the placebo effect (if you think it will work your body acts as though it is working) but really, all pregnant bodies have the inate ability to give birth to the baby they grew. so, in my opinion, save your money and trust your body!

[Tumble Bumbles]

No, I don't see where that would offend anyone who is part of a thread titled "Red Raspberry Leaf Tea tribe"

I'm drinking my tea ladies :)

[DanelleB]

From here:

Quote:

 

Most of the benefits ascribed to regular use of Raspberry tea through pregnancy are traced to the nourishing source of vitamins and minerals found in this plant and to the strengthening power of fragrine - an alkaloid which gives tone to the muscles of the pelvic region, including the uterus itself. Of special note are the rich concentration of vitamin C, the presence of vitamin E and the easily assimilated calcium and iron. Raspberry leaves also contain vitamins A and B complex and many minerals, including phosphorous and potassium. 

Sounds like we are nourishing our bodies.  And if it comes with a hope of a shortened/easier labor, what's the harm?

[MovingMomma]

Originally Posted by comadrona 

Hope I don't offend anyone with this but...I must take issue with the assumption that RRL tea or tablets will produce a better labor. There is NO research which confirms this. Women's experiences are variable and can be attributed to other factors such as parity (number of babies you've had), genetics (women often imitate their mothers in labor and birth style, though this too is totally anecdotal) and fear factor, plus luck. I am by no means anti-herbal, I love Spirulina, for instance, as it produces measurable increases in Hemoglobin levels and boosts women's well-being. But it bothers me a lot that women attribute a "good" birth to RRL when, in all probability, they would have had it anyway.

If you look back over the posts you will see a number of women had negative experiences in spite of taking it, and there is no standard dosage, or time frame to take it. This wouldn't matter except that obviously thousands of women don't trust their bodies to get the job done, and there is an awful lot of fear surrounding the birth process. And I get irritated by the belief in the supposed effect that RRL supposedly has on uterine functions - Braxton Hicks contractions are universal but sometimes are strong (often due to baby's position that day) or not detectable. This has nothing to do with RRL. And premature birth - if RRL really worked, it would either be on the poisons register for bringing on preterm labor or we wouldn't need the induction drugs we are currently using in hospitals!

In my view we should forget about specifics like RRL and concentrate on the things we know work - superb nutrition, exercise and rest and optimal fetal positioning. The women I care for get good education and learn to assume that their body will deliver the goods on the day, all things being equal. Of course, in the Western medical system you are very likely to have fear and interference in your labor and birth, best avoided by staying away from hospital as long as possible. RRL may work because of the placebo effect (if you think it will work your body acts as though it is working) but really, all pregnant bodies have the inate ability to give birth to the baby they grew. so, in my opinion, save your money and trust your body!

Welcome to mothering.com, comadrona.

I hope that you aren't implying that everyone who takes RRL does so because they don't trust their bodies and fear birth.  I believe most women who take RRL do so from the position of "superb nutrition."  There's no less trust implied in my body whether I support my nutrition through herbs than if I focus on any or all of the other elements you mention as "things we know work."  It's just as absurd to say that women who exercise don't trust their bodies as it is to say it of those who take RRL.

Also, there are plenty of areas surrounding birth that are inadequately researched, but just because ultrasound hasn't been proven safe, for example, doesn't mean I can't make an informed decision using available information & my own personal circumstances.  

[sharita]

I have a history of short labors so that is not my reasons for taking it.  I am hoping to tone my uterus though as I have weeks of prodromal labor before each.  Who knows, if it can at least make some of those contractions more efficient and cut a few days off that it is worth it.  Either way, I have added nettles and some other stuff that I needed as reccomended by my midwife since I had pp hemorrhage last time and she has dealt with lots of moms with history of PPH who took RRL, nettles, alfalfa and didn't have it again so I figure it is worth a try.  I know there are so many different things involved in labor that there is no one thing you can do to have a certain kind of birth or speed it along.  A mom can drink RRL all she wants and even have a history is precipitous labors but if baby is malpositioned or posterior, things could go slowly.  It is just a roll of the dice sometimes but it never hurts to take an herb that is good for the female reproductive system in general.  Even if 10 years from now, it turns out that RRL has no effect at all in labor length or making contractions more efficient, it will still be just as fun as eating spicy foods, goingon bumpy car rides, taking castor oil, and all the other stuff we aren't quite sure of that could actually have an effect on labor. On the opposite end, if it does really work, of course it wont work for everyone.  I believe that even if it does, baby has to be in preferable position, perhaps favorable cervix (which is gotten through effective BH contrx) and so many other things too that it is still just an aid and by itself probably doesnt make or break the type of labor you will have.  Id like to think it works with you though.

 I like to think of it as, hey, the tea is good, it is supposedly good for me pregnant or not, so Im game.  I wouldn't think it wise for anyone to put all their hopes in one thing to make labor short and painless.  I am not expecting it to be painless either way. How labor will go is just as much a surprise each time and no one can predict it whether it is your first or 10th.  Just hoping for more effective contrax, perhaps a better toned uterus so that it clamps down better after birth as this being #6, mine tends to be a little lazy or "boggy" after delivery.  I like to feel I am doing everything I can though:)

[comadrona]

No, not implying that everyone is fearful or untrusting but, if you look through the posts, there are many who are. RRL has never (and will never) be "proven" do do what is rumored. As with things like castor oil "induction", curries, pineapple and bumpy car rides, we will never know because everyone goes into labor in the end and it is impossible to know what might have helped (or hindered). It will never be possible to do Randomized Control Trials on RRL as we cannot obtain consent from the fetus.

The component Fragrine is an alkaloid, like Caffeine. Alkaloids are poisons. Most herbal medicine was developed to alleviate symptoms of sick people and the trade-off between risks and benefits was acceptable under those circumstances. However, pregnant women are not sick and don't need "medicine" to help a natural process. We are better off sticking to whole food, fresh and local organic for preference, or if something like Iron is needed, take something which gives quantifiable results (such as Spirulina). By the way, Vitamin C is destroyed by heat so that particular benefit is probably negated in the tea form of RRL.

The language used in websites which tout the purported benefits of RRL is vague and unhelpful. Words such as "calming" "soothing" "toning" "strengthening" and "easing" are used but without any evidence to support these claims. Some people recommend not using it before 36 weeks due to the risk of preterm labor, others say get in early to strengthen the uterus. This alone should alert us to the lack of real information surrounding this plant. As an aside, for those who are considering the Cohoshes (similar names but different plants) avoid the Blue and be very cautious about the Black. Neither, in my opinion, is necessary for normal pregnancy and birth and both can have unwanted effects on the body. Similarly, castor oil stimulates the gut (this is proven) which may stimulate the uterus, but at what cost? Babies often get distressed from the painful spasms provoked in the mother and, worst of all, after a few hours of painful contractions, it can all die away again with no result other than a tired, frustrated mother.

The best thing I can say about RRL is that it is probably harmless physically but, after many years as a midwife trying very hard to look at things rationally, I would have to say that RRL has not shown itself to make any difference whatsoever for the women I have cared for. However, I am well aware that in the realm of pregnancy and birth there is a lot of mystique and variability in beliefs so I have no doubt that many women will just take it anyway.

[Tumble Bumbles]

If a midwife is supposed to support a woman in anything she feels is beneficial to her journey (unless it's proven harmful, like...crack) why in the world would someone enjoying a cup or two of tea, even if it's red raspberry leaf, annoy or bother someone so much? Isn't it 100% contrary to the very art of midwifery to take a woman who believes in something (even if the benefits of doing it are purely psychological, which is huge imo) and tell them that it's basically a bunch of BS? I would think that would do far more damage than a couple of cups of tea a day. It's opinions like that, ones given for no other benefit than to 'prove' a woman 'wrong' for feeling as she does which led me to explore, and ultimately choose UC. Any midwife I would choose would approach something like RRL in the vein of, "it's certainly not harmful and if you believe it's beneficial to you, and certainly many women throughout the world do, why not?"

[comadrona]

There is a big difference between "beneficial to her journey" and being a "prop" which the woman cannot do without because she does not trust her body's ability to do its ordained job. My job as a midwife is not to bend women to my will but to give them good, evidence-based information regarding anything which they put into their bodies or which they think might help them through labor. I'm also not a big fan of TENS machines because, though they might help with pain in the initial part of labor, when the going gets tough and the woman no longer gets the benefit, she no longer has that particular resource to help her. I have actually witnessed this myself, many times. The danger of relying on a particular herb, aroma, drug or gadget or whatever, is that the woman is counting on this external  resource and if it lets her down, then what? I cannot, in good conscience, let a woman "think" that something will aid her ability to birth when clearly there is no evidence to support that thinking. I am all about helping women to access their innate power to birth - ideally with minimal interference (BTW I totally understand why women want to free-birth, and why not?). This power should not be given away or attributed to something which basically doesn't work. However, we are human, and there are entrenched opinions about RRL. I would refer you back to many, many of the preceding posts where it patently HAS NOT helped. And those women who give credit to RRL, it probably had nothing to do with your great birth and you should credit your body for its amazing performance.

[Tumble Bumbles]

There are so many things women use to benefit their journey that haven't been "proven" -- gosh -- hypnobabies, perineal massage, Spinning babies for optimum fetal positioning, eating the placenta to reduce pph  or ppd,... I could go on and on. None of these have hardcore widely accepted "evidence" that "proves" their effectiveness. If I had a midwife who called all of that BS because of *her* personal determination that it wouldn't work and even invalidated the potential psychological benefits of believing such things can work to help a woman's journey, I would run as fast as I could in the other direction because that would appear to me to be a midwife who was more concerned with her personal agenda and dogma surrounding the "shoulds and shouldn'ts" of birth than with my personal labor and birthing journey.

Speaking of which, tribes are supposed to be 100% support. I didn't recall anyone requesting a critical analysis of your personal opinion of RRL tea. So, I would question the motivation here. "Helping" women see how terribly misguided they are in choosing to drink RRL tea during pregnancy? "With woman" indeed.

[Wilhelmina]

Originally Posted by comadrona 

Hope I don't offend anyone with this but...I must take issue with the assumption that RRL tea or tablets will produce a better labor. There is NO research which confirms this. Women's experiences are variable and can be attributed to other factors such as parity (number of babies you've had), genetics (women often imitate their mothers in labor and birth style, though this too is totally anecdotal) and fear factor, plus luck. I am by no means anti-herbal, I love Spirulina, for instance, as it produces measurable increases in Hemoglobin levels and boosts women's well-being. But it bothers me a lot that women attribute a "good" birth to RRL when, in all probability, they would have had it anyway.

If you look back over the posts you will see a number of women had negative experiences in spite of taking it, and there is no standard dosage, or time frame to take it. This wouldn't matter except that obviously thousands of women don't trust their bodies to get the job done, and there is an awful lot of fear surrounding the birth process. And I get irritated by the belief in the supposed effect that RRL supposedly has on uterine functions - Braxton Hicks contractions are universal but sometimes are strong (often due to baby's position that day) or not detectable. This has nothing to do with RRL. And premature birth - if RRL really worked, it would either be on the poisons register for bringing on preterm labor or we wouldn't need the induction drugs we are currently using in hospitals!

In my view we should forget about specifics like RRL and concentrate on the things we know work - superb nutrition, exercise and rest and optimal fetal positioning. The women I care for get good education and learn to assume that their body will deliver the goods on the day, all things being equal. Of course, in the Western medical system you are very likely to have fear and interference in your labor and birth, best avoided by staying away from hospital as long as possible. RRL may work because of the placebo effect (if you think it will work your body acts as though it is working) but really, all pregnant bodies have the inate ability to give birth to the baby they grew. so, in my opinion, save your money and trust your body!

Maybe it SHOULD be researched.  I'm all for research and everyone that says: "it hasn't been supported by research (because of the lack of research), therefore it won't work" is getting on my nerves.  All the pharmaceutical multi billion dollar companies would of course rather that we get induced by using pitocin (and then use epidurals thanks to the negative effects of Pitocin, etc.) or some other FDA unapproved 'stuff' (oh, I'm sure you haven't heard that Pitocin is actually not even FDA approved) instead of using something that's totally out of their hands and costs next to nothing.

Let's do the research then! 

[comadrona]

It would be great to try to have these things researched but it will never happen. Big Pharma is not interested in spending money on research which cannot be patented and developed. All we can do is to see whether the "unresearchable" stands up to anecdotal evidence. Optimal fetal positioning does, perineal massage and hypnobirthing - the jury is out, and RRL and the cohoshes - anecdotally do not.

My point remains this: Women can give birth - it is their default position. But because women are prey to various fears - fear of pain, fear of going "overdue", fear of abandonment, fear of interference, etc they often seek out "something" which will help them through. The problem with this is that various "props" have not been shown to work, and if they do not deliver the goods the woman may have no alternate resource she can turn to. This happens all the time, especially in hospital. What we know works, consistently (and has been shown in research) is calm, continuous, loving support and patience.

It is my understanding that a forum like this is about airing different points of view and promoting  discussion, not just hosting an agree-fest. The writer who asserts that my responses are "personal dogma" couldn't be more wrong. What is wrong is that many women who come across this site will only see uncritical endorsement of something which is unsubstantiated and probably completely unnecessary. If this site is purely for "100% support" of a product which, like all things used in pregnancy and birth, should be intelligently examined and evaluated, then it is not really serving  women very well.