Considering any non-c/s birth "natural" ?

[zombiemommie]

It seems that in my neck of the woods, anybody and everybody who has had a non c/s birth considers themselves to have gone "natural"...I have talked to at least 5 people this week who, when questioning me about my preg/CNM whatever, and learn I am trying to have a non-medicated birth, say "oh, Susan went natural" and upon investigation I find out they mean VAGINAL. It seems that anybody who isn't having c/s around here is considered to have had a natural birth. I am tired of explaining. It doesn't matter if it was a high forceps delivery, it was "natural". Grrrr. Just venting.

[Elphaba]

i think it's like that all over. people ask if had a natural birth and when i tell them that i had an epidural after 17 hours, they get confused and ask, "but you didn't have a c-section did you?" and then i have to explain, no, but that doesn't mean i had a natural birth. :

[gurumama]

Yes, I had the same experience. I was talking to a mother at my son's preschool and said I was on my way to a midwife appointment. (Her husband is an OB/GYN, but I didn't know it at the time. I aso didn't know that her three kids were all delivered via c-section--planned). She looked alarmed and said, "But you're having the baby in a hospital, right? Not at home?" I told her my midwives are CNMs, and yes, I'd go to the hospital for the delivery, but I was having a doula stay at home with me for as long as possible.

I told her I was planning a natural childbirth. She asked if I'd had one with my older son and I said "No, I had a shot of Nubain and then an epidural after being on Pitocin for four hours." She got this confused look on her face and said, "But you didn't have a c-section, did you?"

"No."

"Oh, so you had a natural childbirth."

Boy did THAT confuse me for a while, until I told the CNM the story. That's when I learned that many women consider any vaginal birth a "natural" childbirth. On a continuum, it involves fewer medical interventions than a c-section, sure. Then again, I've been told by two homebirth advocates that any birth in a hospital is not a "natural" childbirth, even if I didn't get any drugs, epidural, etc. Go figure.

Mel

[guestmama9924]

Re: Considering any non-c/s birth "natural" ?

Originally posted by zombiemommie
It seems that in my neck of the woods, anybody and everybody who has had a non c/s birth considers themselves to have gone "natural

Yes, it is frustrating. Not only for those of us that actually did have a totally natural birth ( 0 interventions at home) but also for pregnant women that do not understand the differences. As a doula, I am polite when I tell women that I have never seen, heard of , or expect to see a natural birth in a hospital. I have doula'ed plenty of unmedicated( no pain meds) births, but even most of those had Pitocin at some point.My childbirth students usually call me right after birth in a hospital to exclaim" we did it all natural!" only to later tell of the morphine, pitocin, episiotomy, fetal monitoring, IV, etc....I don't and no one can, change a womans perception of her birth, But I do usually congratulate the woman like "I am glad you had an active birth without an epidural" or " wow, you had an unmedicated birth". It does need clarification, but each womans perceptions are so culturally intwined that it becomes hard. Even on this board I see women tell their birth stories with sidebars of "mine was unusually hard to I had to take meds/epidural/c-section" as if natural birth is all luck and conditional or an unattainable ideal....well I guess it will be for some.

I think that women that say they are going to have, or had a 'natural birth in a hospital' may think they did, but the standard by which they are comparing it to ( c-section or epidural) is birth, via medical extraction of the fetus.

[Mom2baldie]

that really bothers me too

I *think* I had a natural vbac. I gave birth 12 minutes after arriving at the hospital so I had no interventions during labor, but I was given an IV when my daughter was about 20 minutes old so I dont know if that counts as natural???

Anyways, I know one girl who never misses any oportunity to say she had her kids naturally even though they were both induced/augmented, 1 had AROM, both times epidural and vacuum extractor deliveries. : Drives me nuts, but I never say anything to her. Makes me too mad to even think clearly.

I worked SOOO hard to get my vbac and I love telling people that
I was in labor for 31 hours and still did it unmedicated/natural, whatever. Of course thats all because I stayed at home with my doula. I cant even think about what would have happened if Id have gone to the hospital. I am so proud of myself.

Lynsey
chapter leader, ICAN of N. TX

[zinemama]

Re: Re: Considering any non-c/s birth "natural" ?

Originally posted by KeysMama
As a doula, I am polite when I tell women that I have never seen, heard of , or expect to see a natural birth in a hospital.

With all due respect, KeysMama, you may think you are being polite, but as someone who gave birth in a hospital, I find your statement very dismissive. It's like you are trying to make women who had empowering, positive birth experiences - and this can happen in hospital settings - feel like their experiences were less than ideal simply because of where they occured.

I understand that this thread is about the fact that some people believe any non c/s birth should be considered "natural", (and I agree that this is kind of strange!) but there seems to be an undertone to this discussion that any intervention at all is not only not "natural" but probably completely unnecessary, and something to feel guilty about.

Completely "natural" birth is unattainable for some women. Not most women, but some. No matter how much we plan, read, work with our midwives, etc., real life sometimes just doesn't cooperate. I had the most wonderful, supportive, "natural" midwife I could have hoped to find. When it became clear that intervention was needed, I trusted her. And both ds and I are alive today. A hundred years ago, we'd both be dead.

I think it's time we stopped being so judgemental of each other - and especially of ourselves - for the kinds of births we have.

[guestmama9924]

Re: Re: Re: Considering any non-c/s birth "natural" ?

Originally posted by zinemama


With all due respect, KeysMama, you may think you are being polite, but as someone who gave birth in a hospital, I find your statement very dismissive. .

should have clarified. This is what I tell new clients when we are talking about birth planning and where to have a natural birth. In my experience, I have not seen a natural birth in a hospital so I let them know that as nicely as I can.

[MysticHealerMom]

No offense to you, zinemama, but I didn't read anything or pick up any undertones that anyone said anything that should make another person feel guilty or judged.

KeysMama, I thought, was very clear, without a clarification, of what her experience was and what her personal definition of natural was. I didn't find it judgemental at all. I thought that her account of discussing after the fact w/moms who choose to believe they went ala naturale was sensitive. I know that a lot of people would like to believe that they are having a natural birth in the hospital, and I don't blame them one bit for claiming that they did. We (aka: science) know that just transporting and being in the hospital interrupts the birth process. There's a lot of cultrural dogma to be overcome, obviously. And no offense to KeysMama, but a lot of BA's (birth attendants) on this board take a lot of hits because their specialized background gives them a different perception of birth than someone who's on the other end of the yoni. Their views about birth tend to be pretty stark, but I appriciate it when they identify themselves as BA's so we have a perspective of where they're coming from.

It's distressing to me that when someone starts to discuss what is basically semantics and their personal views, someone invariably has to tell them that "other" people are hurt by their "judgements".

I think that is pretty sad that we all have to define our place in this continuum to everyone we speak to. But, it's part of the education and erradication of outmoded views of childbirth. I'm proud to be a part of this community because we care so much. I've learned a lot and I think that I bring something to the party, as well.

When I first started paying attention to discussions of childbirth, I realized they were referring to all vaginal as natural. And while that struck me at the time as a little odd, I went with it for some time. Until I did my own research and discovered that I didn't feel natural childbirth simply ment no major surgery. I think a lot more women can do it than think they can. Having that backup and encouragement (at the hospital) makes it tempting, perhaps too much, for women who are in the temple of technology, and are used to technology in their lives and the everyday convenience devices. As Pam England says in BFW, a lot of women in our culture have never done anything particularly physically challenging, or sweaty, vomity and ungainly as grunting and yelling in a public place. I think one of the closest things to compare to is running a marathon, and all the training leading up to it, and the mental letting go, the walls and valleys and highs during the run, but no one sees your privates.

We have a lot to overcome in our culture, and it's no wonder we don't "do" natural childbirth well. But, we're getting there, and there is no shame in wanting a little help, or a lot of help, but part of the education and erradication process is to acknowledge what we had chosen and not feel so intimidated by labels and continuum issues related to a natural birth.

I think if someone you don't particularly know brings up in conversation, you are justified in saying - yes, I had natural childbirth. But if you're discussing the whole thing, you could bring up the fact that you had some pain killers and an episiotomy or some oxygen, so it was pretty natural. And not feel ashamed or judged because it's your experience - good, bad. Everyone can just keep their negative opinions to themselves if they can't be supportive.

I'm planning a homebirth attended by 2 naturopaths (doctors) in May. They can use vacuum extraction and oxygen and of course can do episiotomy. They don't and haven't used vacuum extraction, but it is a tool they have available. I think this is going to be a very natural birth. But, I've also had surgery for removal of a polyp on my cervix during pregnancy, so it's about as natural a process as I suppose I can get. I'm trying my darndest to become educated for the marathon part of pregnancy. So that when the time comes I'm not birthing in my mind, but in my body. I wouldn't be able to birth at home as naturally as I can if the polyp were there, and it may still be an issue, because only the part sticking out was cut off. But, I am attempting to go as non-interference as possible. Not for my sake, but for the baby, because I believe he's the one that will benefit the most from a non-interrupted, non-medicated birth and an intact mom after the outcome. If I didn't think that recovery from a medicated birth took more time and just wasn't generally good for the body's natural recovery system, and I didn't know about the impact to the baby in all this, I'd probably opt for twilightsleep. But you can't even get that anymore.

[guestmama9924]

Originally posted by MysticHealerMom
I didn't find it judgemental at all.

Thanks MHM, if anyone reads judgement into my post, then I feel that any guilt trip is already been placed upon them, perhaps by themselves, but not by me for sure. I had 1 hospital epidural birth, and 1 natural at home. To imply that I have judgement is false. I only tell of what I see and know.

[CanOBeans]

Re: Re: Considering any non-c/s birth "natural" ?

Originally posted by KeysMama
Even on this board I see women tell their birth stories with sidebars of "mine was unusually hard to I had to take meds/epidural/c-section" as if natural birth is all luck and conditional or an unattainable ideal....well I guess it will be for some.

I think it's important, though, to understand and acknowledge that there IS a certain amount of luck, chance, lack of control, whatever you want to call it, about birth. I know many women who did everything "right" to prepare for a natural birth and still had interventions or c-sections for very good reasons. Some women seem unable to recognize that just because they had a natural birth themselves doesn't mean that it was because they did everything right and someone who didn't have a natural birth didn't. Birth is not within our complete control. We have more control if we stay home, but planning a home birth, or having a doula, or taking Bradley classes, or eating perfectly, or doing yoga -- none of these are guarantees of a natural or even a vaginal birth.

I don't like the competition between women over birth. For heaven's sake, I had a totally natural birth at home but some women would say I had an interventive birth because I had midwives present -- who didn't do much of anything, but I've been told by those who favor unassisted birth that even the presence of someone besides the mother and father (and some even object to the dad being there) is not natural. Trying to pin labels on birth is an exercise in absurdity, because no two births are ever the same.

BTW, I do know a woman whose midwife bailed on her at the last minute -- she ended up having a totally natural, totally non-interventive VBAC in the hospital with an OB present (the same OB who lost her hospital privileges for not following the standard obstetric line; her story has been posted on MDC recently). It can happen -- but it is very, very rare. Women should understand that going to a hospital almost surely means having some kind of intervention or institutional protocol that becomes a part of their birth -- even if it's just putting on a hospital gown.

Edited well after the fact because my typos are now getting quoted, yikes!

[CanOBeans]

Oh, I also meant to say, in reply to the OP -- I think a lot of people refer to a non-c/s birth as "natural" because they can't bring themselves to say the word "vaginal" out loud! :LOL I've gotten so used to saying "vaginal" that I don't even think about it anymore -- I've gotten some weird looks from people.

[crazy_eights]

Originally posted by CanOBeans
Oh, I also meant to say, in reply to the OP -- I think a lot of people refer to a non-c/s birth as "natural" because they can't bring themselves to say the word "vaginal" out loud!

I think this is *so* true. I'll come "out" here before I start - I'm an RN who works in hospital L&D (and very much agree that walking in our door is the first intervention - but that's another discussion...). You wouldn't believe the lengths to which people will go not to say "vagina", "penis" or other anatomical words. I had a woman *spell* n-u-r-s-i-n-g b/c she didn't want to say "breastfeeding" in front of her kids!

[MysticHealerMom]

:LOL

that's amazing!! when my mom was teaching us sex ed, we used vagina and penis. my mom had no idea what to do, so actually bought some books at the time, and this is what they said to do. our friends were so weirded out. and so were their parents inky sometimes I use more descrete terms, esp when I think I'm starting to sound like a dictionary Or I get that stare - that indicates I've "lost my audience" - silliness!

Was discussing Spiritual Midwifery w/my docs, and they were telling me how the book is a little dated now, they call it, hm, "yoni" I offered? no. Um, the c-word?, no no. ah, "pussy" - sorry if that's offensive, just using it in the contex of the book...

peace this holiday season!

[kama'aina mama]

I only encountered this once, while I was pregnant. It was a comment from an elderly lady so I sort of assumed it was a generational thing. I had no idea it was an actual attitude!

[Greaseball]

VAGINA!!

T About "vagina" - a lot of people just can't bring themselves to say it. I had an English teacher who was reading a selection to the class and she read the words "d!ck" and "mother-f" but when it came to the word vagina, she just said "blank-blank-blank."

It is subconscious hatred of women such as this that is partly responsible for the state of sOBstetrics as it is today. Grr...

Anyway, I read that ACOG (A-COG in our wheels) considers "natural childbirth" to be any birth where the mother remains awake and delivers, you know, blank-blankity.

But when people ask me, it's always meant "did you have drugs." But, get this, some people don't consider the epidural to be "drugs!" I have asked people "Are you going to have drugs?" Only to hear them say "No, just the epidural."

I've been reading Open Season again, which reminds us that it's impossible to have a hospital birth with no interventions, and that being in the hospital is an intervention by itself. Even my dh knows better - when people asked me if I had a natural birth, I would say yes, (meaning no drugs AND no epidural-type drugs! ) and he would say "What about the forceps?" Even he knew that I did not have a "natural" delivery.

So when talking about a completely, intervention-free, homebirth, I use the term in Open Season - purebirth.

[MysticHealerMom]

Good words, Greaseball!

I think people might be getting used to the "word", what with the Vagina Monlogues - but I know people hae trouble with that one

It all just reminds me of that scene in Boys on the Side where they're discussing the "worst" word - the c-word. BLANK, blank, blank, blank. *giggle*

Purebirth sounds cool. Now I've got another book to buy!!



oh, and

VAGINA

[JessicaS]

Even on this board I see women tell their birth stories with sidebars of "mine was unusually hard to I had to take meds/epidural/c-section" as if natural birth is all luck and conditional or an unattainable ideal....well I guess it will be for some.

I did find this to be a little judgemental. This is the VBAC board so I am assuming that several people on here have had c-sections. I dont know about "unusually hard to take" but it sounds a little dismissive when some of the women on this board were facing life or death situations. Just my MO. There is a thread about why people had c-sections on this board...

[MysticHealerMom]

that's true, abimommy. i try to be respectful of this forum because I have read around to see what was going on and had not previously posted because I didn't have anything to add that was supportive or informative.

I kinda thought this thread belonged in a different forum... I don't think anyone in this forum promotes a c-sec because it's convenient or fun, and I'd like to appologize if my comments in this particular thread were insensitive, considering the forum it's in.



Lori

[zombiemommie]

As the originator of this thread - the reason I put it here (which I guess isn't in the first post) is that I am trying for a VBAC, and I had a c/s the first time, and when I tell anybody that I am attempting a VBAC (which I also hope to be non-medicated) this is the response I hear often. I guess MY thoughts on what a natural birth are, vs. what the general public (not MDC) thinks are so different. I guess I was very frustrated when I wrote the post because of non-medicated VBAC not getting the recognition and getting lumped into the "natural" because it is vaginal category = does that make sense ?

Anyway, this thread did get interesting

[MamaOui]

I don't like the competition between women over birth. For heaven's sake, I had a totally natural birth at home but some women would say I had an interventive birth because I had midwives present -- who didn't do much of anything, but I've been told by those who favor unassisted birth that even the presence of someone besides the mother and father (and some even object to the dad being there) is not natural. Trying to pin labels on birth is an exercise in absurdity, because no two birth are ever the same

Great post CanOBeans I loved your whole post, but I just wanted to quote my favorite part. ITA, but you said it so much better than I would have.