Teach me how to deal......

[allismom]

With tantrums, refusal to cooperate (like getting dressed, diaper changes, etc) and to stop making threats.

DD is 2.5 and in a phase of tantrums over things that are not-negotiable. I give her many many choices when possible and even give choices over non negotiable things......like do you want to walk into the room for a diaper change or should I carry you? Do you want a diaper change or to tinkle on the potty? Lately these 'negotiations' take place over diaper changes, getting dressed, doing hair, sometimes bath/teeth, BEDTIME (ooooooh bedtime)........so it is fairly frequent.

These often result in me offering the choice one too many times nicely (4, 5, or 6), making a threat, me yelling (I am a yeller, though I really try not to), her kicking, running and screaming, me trying a timeout (she will NOT stay sitting for one), both of us getting frustrated.......you get the picture. Oh, and I rarely follow through on my threat.

So I need to learn how to change all of this. Can anybody offer some good books to read? I asked another board this question and they all made comments like "are you her mom or her friend?", "you need to let her know you are in charge and there are NO negotiations". I was shocked as those responses didn't seem to show any respect to the child. I don't want our entire day to be me dictating what gets done and how, and I am pretty sure you will all agree to that. That is why I came here.

There isn't much different in our life now......I am pregnant, but only 16 weeks and she seems excited about a baby. We moved her into a new 'big girl' room which she helped paint, decorate, etc and she is excited about that room. At times I may push the potty issue too much because I am pretty sure she is capable, she just doesn't want to. She started preschool 3 weeks ago (one morning a week) and LOVES that. They all sound like good things, but maybe that is too much? She could be getting her 2nd year molars, nonetheless, I still need to make some changes. Or it could just be thta she is 2 and testing what she can get away with with us.

Any help would be great!

[annab]

First of all, she is two. Give her and yourself a break. Secondly, the advice you received on another board sounds more like a critique than being helpful. You can be a parent and a friend. I would argue that in the long run, if your child has a view of you as somewhat of a friend, they are more likely to come to you with heavy issues like sex and drugs.

It sounds like there have been a lot of changes recently. Even though they are positive, it is still hard for a child that age to understand how it effects them. I am sure that she is trying to test you a little bit. "My room is different--is mommy the same? Sometimes I use the potty--why doesn't mommy change my diaper any more? There is a baby in mommy's uterus--I thought I was the baby!"

I would hold off on the potty training for a while and just let everything else set in. Especially if she is getting molars--she probably does not feel that great anyway, so this would not be an optimal time to give her added responsibility.

As for the tantrums, there is nothing wrong with letting your child have tantrums. Tantrums are not demons to be tamed. They are simply her outlet for more emotion than she knows how to handle. I would empathize, let the tantrum run its course and show her that while you are sorry for her, it does not change the plan.

Example: Do you want to undress yourself for your bath or let mommy help you? The bath is not up for discussion, but how she gets naked it. Big fit happens--NO bath! No bath! I hate baths! NOOOOO! complete with her throwing herself to the ground and kicking. Stay near, let the tantrum run out. No tantrum has lasted forever. While she is blowing up, give her empathy. "I know it is no fun to have to do things when mommy asks when you would rather do something else. I understand." When the tantrum is over, offer her the choice again.

Also, I would ditch time outs. You don't want to punish her for having strong feelings that just overflow. Also, I would stop the yelling. When you escalate, she will too. The only person you control is you, and she knows you cannot truly make her do something without getting more physical than you probably would like. After the tantrum, in the same calm tone, ask, "Do you want to take your shoes off, or mommy do it?"

Try to make as much a game as possible. Can we get your clothes off before I finish the Alphabet Song? Can you name three colors before I get your hair brushed? My son's toothbrush has a whole routine that we do before it gets in his mouth. Race her to her bed. I would just keep it as light as possible. If you try to strong arm her, she will just dig her heels in.

HTH!

[Proudly AP]

anna, i really appreciated your answer. my dd is 3, 8 (not 2.5), but i could have written the original post with different issues.

i agree, she needs to be able to express her emotions, even when they're the big, noisy ones people often don't 'like' to see or hear. (that was a good reminder for me). i also offer choices whenever possible. if something is non-negotiable, then i *try* to calmly restate my position (as many times as possible without going bananas!). when she gets upset and pouts, whines and cries, i put words to her feelings, 'i understand you're upset you can't have X right now. it's okay to be uspet, but yelling (or whatever her choice is-whining, pleading...) won't change that.' dh thinks we should reiterate only a couple of times and then say we're not talking about it anymore, because the answer won't change. i am not sure about this, but am thinking.

sorry, guess i'm not much help. but hang in there, we know where you're coming from.

[allismom]

Thank you, both. Great answers and thanks for supporting me!

Since I did the original post, I did read an article on Mothering about how tantrums ARE good for them and they need to get it out. Exactly what you were saying AnnaB! I also considered getting rid of time outs. But if you get rid of them, what do you use for a consquence of not listening to mommy? Seems there still needs to be some consequence or they have no incentive to ever listen.

I have also reconsidered some other issues that aren't as big during the day, but still involving mommy saying "no" to things. Like juice. I have decided to allow her to have juice when she asks, but it will be EXTREMELY watered down. So I know by the end of the day she is still only getting 4 oz. Instead of just allowing her 4 oz, one time a day and then saying no the rest. Hoping that if there are fewer no's during the day overall, the feelings for her won't build up as much.

I also decided to lay easy on the potty training. I'll still mention or suggest it, but I am not going to be so pushy and forceful with it. I think I was hoping she could train in the next 6 mos before the baby comes. But if she doesn't, oh well. She will soon, RIGHT??????? She'll be 3 when the baby comes. Again, one less battle during the day.

Still hoping for some good book titles......

[Proudly AP]

hey, shari,
glad you've made some adjustments that you can live with.

about the potty learning. i tired to push it. my dd was 32 months old when my ds was born. i didn't push hard, but i did suggest she sit on the toilet. she got really upset. really. i wasn't negative, but she clearly felt pressured by me.

she fully trained (even overnights) when she was just shy of 42 months. it truly did have to be her decision, without any attempted influence from us. she is strong-willed and spritied, and when i gave up trying to control when she would use the toilet, and she decided to honour her body's messages, it just happened.

peace to you, mama!

[Piglet68]

ITA that tantrums are not something to be gotten rid of. It's good that your child tantrums when things don't go her way - she's learning to express her emotions, and validation of that is key to her emotional well-being.

Originally Posted by allismom

I also considered getting rid of time outs. But if you get rid of them, what do you use for a consquence of not listening to mommy? Seems there still needs to be some consequence or they have no incentive to ever listen.

Why do you think your child needs an incentive to listen to you? It's pretty unrealistic to expect a toddler to just do what you say because you say it. They have no sense of time or urgency, they are distracted by countless interesting things in their world...IMO you are wasting your time and creating unnecessary conflicts by having this expectation that they need to "listen". If you ask and there is no response or action, you need to physically go over and guide them through the task without getting angry. You are being helpful, have that attitude when you do it, not "oh great! now I have to come and waste time doing it for you!".

All "time out" does is to teach your child that big, powerful people can get you to do things you don't want, simply because they are bigger and more powerful. It doesn't model cooperation or helpfulness, which is what you show when you help her instead of punishing her.

Anyways, these are just questions to get you thinking about the issue. Hope it helps!

[allismom]

Originally Posted by Piglet68

Why do you think your child needs an incentive to listen to you? It's pretty unrealistic to expect a toddler to just do what you say because you say it. If you ask and there is no response or action, you need to physically go over and guide them through the task without getting angry.

All "time out" does is to teach your child that big, powerful people can get you to do things you don't want, simply because they are bigger and more powerful.

Well I am just thinking of situations like changing a poopy diaper, getting dressed to leave the house (on time) for her preschool, and going to BED (so mom and dad can sleep). Am I expecting too much when I say "get in bed and stay in your bed"? Maybe so. But when I physically go 'help' her back into bed, or physically hold her between my legs to get her dressed, etc she ends up kicking and screaming which seems to send the same message of big, powerful people can get you to do things you don't want, kwim? I am trying to find ways to get her to 'listen' or do it on her own, so that the task doesn't end up in kicking, screaming.

I have learned a lot already just since I posted this and I went to the bookstore this afternoon and bought 3 books. Knowing a bit more, I could skim the books and put back the ones that just wanted to 'stop' the tantrums. I looked for ones with sections on 'alternatives to discipline', etc. I have lots of reading to do!

Thank you

[mommyofshmoo]

Hey there,

My older daughter spent a full 6 months at least refusing to do anything I told her to do. She still gets in those moods from time to time, so I am have become very very good at avoiding power struggles and avoiding direct me-vs-you conflict with her.

Time outs are always a power play. They mean- you don't obey and I punish you. IME they don't solve anything and take up more time than they save.

Here's how I deal with a few things.

Bath- I go into the bathroom and run the tub. MY dd pretty much always refuses t o take a bath, but once I'm haging out in the bathroom with a full tub SHE decides to take off her clothes and get in. If push comes to shove I get nekkid and take a bath- then she REALLY wants in. If it doesn't work (which it might not at first because it's become a pwer struggle) at leats you got to take a nice bath.

Preschool- If she won't put on her clothes in the morning, she gets in the car in her pajamas. Take her clothes with you. When she arrives, she puts on her clothes in the car or outside the p-school room. If she refuses, you let her know she MUST put on the clothes if she wants to stay. If she refuses, pick her up kicking and screaming and take her back to the car to go home. She will most likely decide to put on the clothes.

BUT- You may as well know that lots of kids end up in preschool in their pajamas some days.

What I do at night is, if dd won't go to sleep, I go to sleep. Dd is perfectly welcome to stay awake by herself in a dark house- hbut she generally chooses not to.

I think this is the age where they start to realize that they don't HAVE to do anything. This is where natural consequences come into play. Like- don't put on your shoes?- you have to walk out to the car barefoot.

Don't get into power struggles or nobody wins. If you wan't to get tougher and tougher with punishmenst till dd caves- that's an option. But know you may have to get pretty far before she caves and you might not like what you end up having to do.

Good luck!

[annab]

Originally Posted by allismom

Well I am just thinking of situations like changing a poopy diaper, getting dressed to leave the house (on time) for her preschool, and going to BED (so mom and dad can sleep). Am I expecting too much when I say "get in bed and stay in your bed"? Maybe so. But when I physically go 'help' her back into bed, or physically hold her between my legs to get her dressed, etc she ends up kicking and screaming which seems to send the same message of big, powerful people can get you to do things you don't want, kwim? I am trying to find ways to get her to 'listen' or do it on her own, so that the task doesn't end up in kicking, screaming.

Thank you

I would not physically intervene in those instances. My son is three and a half, and he sleeps better when we are with him. One of us stays in bed with him until he goes to sleep. My husband usually ends up there all night. For now, that is what he needs, and that supercedes our need to sleep together.

Try making getting dressed a game for a while and see if that helps. If getting dressed meant having someone hold you down and dress you, you probably would not be too cooperative either. If you make it a game, it gives her something to look forward to instead of a battle to be won. I personally would not hold my child between my knees to get dressed. It is not that important to me that he wear his 'day clothes'. If it were that big of a deal, I would take him to preschool in his jammies.

I would love to know which books you bought. I had planned to post earlier and got kid-tracked. I was going to suggest Becoming The Parent You Want To Be. It does a great job of 1) explaining developmental reasons for issues 2) giving concrete things to do instead of punish 3)supporting the idea that parenting is a time of growth for us as well as our kids.

[allismom]

Originally Posted by annab

I would not physically intervene in those instances. My son is three and a half, and he sleeps better when we are with him. One of us stays in bed with him until he goes to sleep. My husband usually ends up there all night. For now, that is what he needs, and that supercedes our need to sleep together.

Well that time is the ONLY time DH and I get together. He leaves the house at 5am while we are sleeping, gets home at 6 to eat (and she won't really 'allow' us to have much adult conversation during dinner cause she misses daddy so much), they play and wrestle until 8, then the bedtime routine starts. We used to take turns laying with her and one would always fall asleep with her, stagger into bed and crash. We never had 2 words with each other or time for us to read, relax or watch any TV.

We've been trying for almost a year now to get her to fall asleep on her own, in her own room. We do the bedtime routine, read books, etc and lay with her for a little bit, then we leave and tell her we'll check back. It works like a charm at naptime. In the past 2 weeks, for whatever reason, the bedtime has gotten worse. For an hour and a half she gets out of bed, comes to find us, lays in bed and calls us and calls us and resorts to crying if we don't come (at what point is that CIO?), calls us that she forgot stuff, has to pee, you name it. We start this at 8:30 and it's almost 10 til she's asleep DH needs to get to sleep before that with his work schedule!

I bought Positive Discipline by Nelson, which I got halfway through last night and am not impressed so far. But the next section is where he actually gets to offering some Positive Techniques. I also bought "Kids, Parents and Power Struggles" by Kurcinka, and "Raising an Emotionally Intelligent Child" by Gottman......as her emotions definately seem out of control with all this. I hope something helps.

[annab]

I think you are expecting way too much from a 2.5 year old. There have been major changes lately, so it is to be expected that she is going to disrupt your life as hers has been disrupted. 2.5 is still really just a baby, and a lot has been going on. When you move a child to a new room, start preschool, etc. that is a lot for a little person to absorb. She is probably trying to get your attention at night because she misses the closeness of sleeping near you and being with you all day. Just because she loves preschool does not mean that it did not rock her world a little bit.

As for your DH, I think it goes with having young children. For a few years, you have to connect with each other as time permits and make an effort to spend time together when you can. However, parents of young children who put their kids first don't always have a lot of time with each other. I don't see my DH very often either, and our chances for conversation are almost zero. But I recognize that this is a phase in our lives and soon our kids will be able to play in the yard alone while we talk. Your daughter is clearly signaling that she needs you at night. It is a temporary situation. It is not as though she will never sleep through the night if you help her through this transition period.

I would try to stop seeing all of this as a power struggle or her testing her boundaries or a situation of you vs. her. I don't think that a child that young really understands power struggles. I think she feels some needs are not being met. I don't think that she is trying to see if she can pull one over on your or what she can get by with. I think she is testing to see if you still are the same mommy who has always loved her even though she sleeps somewhere new and goes away for a few mornings a week.
:two cents

[allismom]

Originally Posted by annab

I think you are expecting way too much from a 2.5 year old. There have been major changes lately, so it is to be expected that she is going to disrupt your life as hers has been disrupted. 2.5 is still really just a baby, and a lot has been going on. When you move a child to a new room, start preschool, etc. that is a lot for a little person to absorb. She is probably trying to get your attention at night because she misses the closeness of sleeping near you and being with you all day.

THanks Anna. I do need to remind myself of her age. She is very advanced verbally and intellectually (and tall) and often does seem more like 4! I guess I didn't view the changes as major because she seems so excited about them, but I guess to her, they are. And just for the record.......she does still sleep with us at night. We require that she start the night out in her bed (so we can have some time to ourselves), but she is in our bed by 11, 12, 1 or 2, it varies And we are fine with that for now.

We need to have some sort of solution becasue I do really feel strongly that our marriage needs to continue to remain strong through raising children. And we have had virtually no time to ourselves....part of it is his work schedule. His sleep is also very important as he drives to work 2 hours and 2 hours home and at very early hours of the morning......so we feel that added 'urgency' to get her to sleep when we need to sleep. I know thats a lot to expect.......and since we've been working at it somewhat unsuccessfully for a year, maybe its time to re-evaulate. Not sure what to do though. Obviously she can do it at naptime so to us I guess we think bedtime should be no different. She has NEVER slept through the night, yet every other parent I meet or know has kids that do. I am pretty sure they are not AP or parents and don't share many of our beliefs and just because 'other kids do' doesn't mean squat, but sure makes you question your methods

If it is this hard now, i cannot imagine what it will be like when the baby is here and Alli is crying for me to cuddle with her at bedtime while the baby needs nursed too.........

I'm trying ladies and taking all your advice to heart....thanks

[Dolphin]

Originally Posted by allismom

We need to have some sort of solution becasue I do really feel strongly that our marriage needs to continue to remain strong through raising children. And we have had virtually no time to ourselves....part of it is his work schedule.

Can you plan a regular date night? I too believe in keeping marriage strong, but I just don't think we have to ask ds to sacrifice for that. We found a great sitter that ds loves, and even just a couple of hours every two weeks has really helped in our house. It's just a little time to focus solely on each other, and when you know that's planned, it's easier to focus on your child each night and know that it won't last forever.

[JennyMom]

Dear Shari,

My DD is 3 and DS is 1. I still have some of the same issues with DD, but they have improved. I can give you some suggestions that work well for me:

1) Potty Training -- I keep all the electronic toys for my kids in the bathroom. They are only allowed to play with them when they sit on the potty. I have one potty for each child and they sometimes have a very fun time in the bathroom sitting and playing. It also helps them to stay on the potty if I stay in the room and talk with them or clean the bathroom at the same time.

2) Potty Training -- I take my kids to the potty as soon as they awaken, before morning snack, after lunch, after nap, and after dinner. Making this part of their routine helps them get used to it. They sit on the potty about once every two hours this way.

3) Book -- "Hold on To your Kids" -- an amazing book on the eventual consequences of non-attachment parenting. It's quite conceptual; the practical parts are short and towards the end of the book.

4) Book -- "How to Talk so Your Kids Will Listen, and Listen so Your Kids Will talk". Has many scenarios and exercises that focus on teaching a parent to defuse a child's emotional overload by connecting with the child emotionally in the middle of the meltdown. Wonderful comics that illustrate some of the examples. My DH and I keep re-reading this book. The authors have another great book "Siblings Without Rivalry".

5) Sleep -- my DD can't get to sleep when she feels lonely. It seems to help if I talk with DH or even on the phone with a friend near her bedroom (or even in her bedroom). The sound of my voice reassures her, and I feel relaxed rather than anxious about her getting to sleep quickly.

6) Sleep -- When all else fails, meditation near her calms me down and that calms her down. She seems quite sensitive to my emotional state. Sometimes I need to stop paying attention to her emotions in order to calm myself down first. I can not handle her emotions well unless I am calm. I ignore her as much as possible while I am taking the 1-5 minutes to calm myself. After that, I respond much better to her.

I hope this helps. Good Luck!

Jenny

[tara]

I agree with a lot that's been said. Wanted to add my .02. 2.5 years is a tough time for a lot of kids, a serious phase of disequilibrium. Add some life changes (new room, preschool...) and it makes sense that she's having a hard time. You might just have to wait it out a bit and as she gets closer to 3 she'll mellow out.

But... doesn't mean you can't make some changes and see what happens. I have some ideas for bedtime that you might not have tried. Some kids really like to be involved in making plans, and she isn't too young. Make a chart with your bedtime routine spelled out in pictures. She can help glue them on (or help pick them out on the computer). Talk about how bedtime is hard for all of you and this chart is going to help everyone remember how bedtime is supposed to be. Include however many books, include peeing and getting a drink and kissing everybody (all the usual things she gets back up for). You can even laminate it and check everything off with a dry-erase marker if the extra visual is useful. And then blame the chart! Yes, when she wants another book or drink or whatever, say, "Well, what does the chart say? Oh, the chart says you've had your drink. You can have another drink tomorrow." Or if she wants to play in the middle of the routine, you say, "But the chart says it's time for toothbrushing" or whatever. Takes you out of the 'bad guy' role a little bit.

I know of a family that gives their kids 3 'get out of bed' cards (literally cards they made). Every night after 'lights out' the kids can get up 3 times for whatever they need but when the cards are gone... outta luck!

That said, my nearly 4 year old almost never falls asleep on his own. But, that hasn't really been a goal for us, as long as he's falling asleep peacefully and fairly quickly (we, also, plan on getting some couple time after he's asleep). When he's having a hard time and I've done all the stories and all the singing I'm going to do, I get a flashlight and read my book next to him! As long as I'm there, he feels comforted enough to space out and start to drift off, and if I'm occupied I don't resent it.

And, if you are resenting it, or desperate, or you feel pressured to get them to sleep, they know it. Kids absorb our emotional stuff so easily and act out. So, I would recommend that you try to mellow out a little bit somehow and be calmer (but firm) at bedtime.

Good luck. You deserve some sleep and some time with your partner, and you'll get it sooner or later. Sooner, I hope!

[TalkToMeNow]

I just wanted to give some tips that worked for getting my dd to fall asleep alone in her own bed. We do the same thing-- night time routine, lay with her for a while, and then leave and she falls asleep. What helped/ helps her is having her lava lamp and fish aquarium lamp (a lamp with fish that move on it). We alternate those and it is a special thing that only happens at night. They are where she can see them while laying down in bed, and she watches them while she falls asleep. Also, music. She can listen to music if she wants to, and she gets to choose the music. I know people who tell their kids that they don't have to go to sleep but they do have to stay in their rooms. They can play, read books, whatever, but no coming out except to potty. Not what we do, but an idea.

Hth!

[Piglet68]

I hear your frustration with wanting couple time, but you simply can't expect your child to provide that for you. A date night is a great idea if you have someone you can trust to watch her. That's what my DH and I do. But when we lived where there was no family, we did without. If you simply accept that this is how life will be for a (very short) time, it makes it easier.

mommyofschmoo does pretty much exactly what we do. when I said you have to physically help them, I didn't mean force. You have to guide them, but avoid all power struggles (or limit them severly). ONce you make an issue out of something, it becomes way worse. I am sure your issues with sleep time are because you are trying to force it. I do understand your desire for an evening of rest, but let me tell you as a mother of two you can forget about it. Also, I know nobody whose 2.5 year old just goes to sleep on their own. I have never had that expectation so the fact that I rarely get an evening to myself is just par for the course. I don't get upset b/c I never expected it. Plus, you may find if you just meet your child's needs and lay with her until she's asleep, over time you won't have to do it long. I lay with my DD every night but it only takes a few minutes until she's asleep. And frankly, it's a nice chance to just snuggle with her. In a few short years she'll be out at night with her friends and you'll long for her to want you to snuggle with her!

You're on the right track - hang in there!

[JennyMom]

In my experience, staying with my (3yo) DD until she goes to sleep makes her go to sleep faster. Maybe it only takes 15-30 minutes for her to fall asleep when she knows I'm there, instead of 90 minutes that it can take when I am not there. On her bad nights, it still takes 2 hours for her to get to sleep whether I am around on not.

I have read many sleep books and worked on my routines. My DD is highly sensitive to what happened to her, how she felt, and what she ate during the day. Issues with sleep time can come from many different causes. My DD has subtle medical issues that complicate matters.

It is obviously very important to Allismom to have some evening time with her husband. That does not seem an unreasonable goal with one or two children if you are quite determined and focused. I am working on that goal myself while taking care of DD (3) and DS (1). It works on some evenings and it doesn't on others.

Allismom, you mentionned that you and your husband sometimes take turns lying next to your daughter. In my experience, my DD and DS both fall aslep easier if only one parent puts them to sleep every night (Right now, I take DD and DH takes DS). Taking turns actually seems to make them stay awake longer.

Good Luck Allismom!

Let us know how you are doing.

Jenny

[allismom]

Originally Posted by JennyMom

4) Book -- "How to Talk so Your Kids Will Listen, and Listen so Your Kids Will talk". Has many scenarios and exercises that focus on teaching a parent to defuse a child's emotional overload by connecting with the child emotionally in the middle of the meltdown. Wonderful comics that illustrate some of the examples. My DH and I keep re-reading this book. The authors have another great book "Siblings Without Rivalry".

Ya know, I had this book on my pile of ones to buy, as I've heard over and over again how good it is. But I kept looking at the format and it looked like it was all quiz style and not much reading. The format just didn't appeal to me. Maybe I'll have to give it a chance since here is yet another vote that it is good!

Thanks for the other tips too!

[allismom]

Originally Posted by Piglet68

I hear your frustration with wanting couple time, but you simply can't expect your child to provide that for you. A date night is a great idea if you have someone you can trust to watch her. That's what my DH and I do. But when we lived where there was no family, we did without. If you simply accept that this is how life will be for a (very short) time, it makes it easier.

mommyofschmoo does pretty much exactly what we do. when I said you have to physically help them, I didn't mean force. You have to guide them, but avoid all power struggles (or limit them severly). You're on the right track - hang in there!

I guess I just don't think it's 'expecting' too much for a tired little girl who has been up for almost 13 hours (with a nap) to go to sleep. Perhaps the way we are trying to get her to sleep is the problem indeed and I think it's obvious we'll be making some changes (oh no, yet another change for her to deal with?). I can't afford to only have 'talks' with DH once a month on a date night and so far this week I haven't even been able to tell him of any of these suggestions or any of the good things I've read. We need to be able to talk daily as we go through these struggles!

I know you didn't mean 'force' when saying physically help them, but the way the kicking and screaming was going for us, that is what it would have been....but already in the past 2 days we have made changes to get around that.

Thanks so much for the support and advice!