Sodium Ascorbate - Page 9

[mamajessica]

Originally Posted by Periwinkle

MT don't bust my balls! What do you mean what do I mean? I mean I need help!!

Pretty please?

Jumping in to say that EsterC is NOT recommended! I believe that in dire circumstanced ascorbic acid and sodium bicarb. combo can be used.

[chasmyn]

Just jumping in, as I have just finished reading the entire thread. Excellent, excellent.

[Periwinkle]

I read that Ester C is not recommended here and elsewhere. Why is that? I can't find any info about that.

Does anyone have info about a brand of Sodium Ascorbate I can ask the Apothecary to order for me? I'd prefer not to have the crystals or chewable because of damage to the tooth enamel.

[Kundalini-Mama]

We get the NOW brand from our co-op special order (the 3lbs size). But it might be cheaper to order it online from that site that someone else posted before.

[chasmyn]

Originally Posted by Periwinkle

I read that Ester C is not recommended here and elsewhere. Why is that? I can't find any info about that.

Does anyone have info about a brand of Sodium Ascorbate I can ask the Apothecary to order for me? I'd prefer not to have the crystals or chewable because of damage to the tooth enamel.

If you read the whole thread, all of your questions will be answered.

[Periwinkle]

Oh okay. I've read the whole thread twice I think - once initially and once a couple of months ago. I guess I forgot. Thanks.

[chasmyn]

posted earlier:

MT - I am in shock. Everyone in the health food store tells me that ester C is the best vit C because your body absorbes it slower so your body will take more vitamin c etc, etc....

MT: That is incorrect. The physiology of ester c is that for you to get to bowel tolerance you will have to take twice as much, and the mechanics of that is that the calcium is sheared off of the ascorbate, but for the ascorbate to be absorbed the body utilises localised sodium from any source nearby, to split the ascorbate into two molecules, one which the body uses, and the other which is excreted. BUT, before the ascorbate is utilised, the body uses some of it to chelate out the calcium, which when free in the body is dangerous to the body.

Far from being absorbed slower, the reason you need MORE Ester C to get to bowel tolerance is that the body has to divert some ascorbate to get the calcium out, so less is able to be used by the body.

Furthermore, by dragging out sodium of the body to do the job it needs to do, if a person isn't eating salt hand over fist, you can become sodium deficient, which totally bombs the immune system. I know, because because of a mistake I made, I took Ester-C in high doses for 9 months, and my whole immune system crashed. I ended up having to salt my food for about three weeks. Urgh...

Quote:
I am glad that you mention about it. I have to really look into it becasue I am totally wrong
So what is the best vitamin C to take?


MT: Sodium Ascorbate...

I don't remember the brands recommended, though...there were a few.

[momto l&a]

I dont care for the NOW brand of SA. Its differant somehow.

[salmontree]

bump

[caedmyn]

wow what a long thread! If anyone is still watching this, is there any benefit to taking more than 500 mg of sodium ascorbate (or whatever it is called, it's a bit too late for me to be thinking clearly right now!) if that does the trick for me? I've been taking 500 mg a day of regular Vitamin C for almost a year now and haven't had a cold since I started doing that (I usually get 2 colds a year)...I do take an extra 500 mg if I get a sore throat which is how my colds always start out. I've had a few sore throats but no colds. I am breast-feeding if that makes any difference...

[Pookietooth]

MT, if you're still monitoring this thread, I was wondering, if someone isn't eating much dairy, is calcium ascorbate really such a bad thing? I can get it easily, but sodium ascorbate has to be special ordered from my local HFS for some reason.

[carnelian]

Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara

Never use Ester C, or calcium ascorbate, except, or unless there is NOTHING ELSE around, and do NOT use it long term. But remember, if there is any possibility that cancer is an issue... excess calcium in the body makes cancer cells go rampant.

Hey now, that's rather disconcerting information. Particularly since calcium supplementation is widespread in this country. Are there any studies, data, references to this effect? What about calcium supplements? Is it only the ascorbate form that is contraindicated? Talking mainly in terms of a cal supp. Which I'm not taking right now but am considering for various reasons tho still doing my darndest to get it thru diet--fermented dairy, liberal use of celtic sea salt, almonds, broccoli, rooibos tea and the like.

[chasmyn]

Originally Posted by Pookietooth

MT, if you're still monitoring this thread, I was wondering, if someone isn't eating much dairy, is calcium ascorbate really such a bad thing? I can get it easily, but sodium ascorbate has to be special ordered from my local HFS for some reason.

They have it at Vitamin Life in Redmond:

http://www.vitaminlife.com/product-e...oduct_id/13728

Is where we get it. If you order online the prices are cheaper then you can pick it up in the store.

[dooldad]

Dosing routine

I just read "Ridiculous Dietary Allowance" again. It is very interesting reading about how the FDA set the Vit C RDA.

One thing they talked about was the very fast half-life of Vit C. Once the blood is at a certain concentration, the half-life of vit C is 30 min. To achieve higher levels, you need to dose throughout the day.

They also mention absorption of C, when you take 1000 mg in one dose, only 500 mg are absorbed, if you take 2000 in one dose only slightly more is absorbed. But if you take 1000 mg twice a day, your body can absorb 500 mg each dose. They recommend something like 500 mg 5 or 6 times a day, spaced out every 4 hours.

This is for healthy people, not under stress or sick. Then the amount absorbed, and required is much, much greater. The problem is that not much research takes this dosing into account.

This is probably why some research on high dose C doesn't show great results. One dose in the morning of 3000 mg is almost the same as a dose of 500 mg.

Hope this helps.

[carnelian]

Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
Never use Ester C, or calcium ascorbate, except, or unless there is NOTHING ELSE around, and do NOT use it long term. But remember, if there is any possibility that cancer is an issue... excess calcium in the body makes cancer cells go rampant.

Ok, this is still bothering me. I've spent a couple weeks trying to find info on this and nothing, nada, zip. Everything I've read, everyone I've talked to--mainly NDs and supplement pharmacists--say that calcium ascorbate is the form of C to take, being the most bio-available and easiest on the gut. No one seems to have heard of it being implicated in disease or excess calcium in the body. Actually I did find one article that stated that older folks shouldn't use it because of the possibility of calcification in the blood due to increased use of other calcium supps. But that was it. Also it's the formula that's all over the shelves at the HFSs.

I have a newish bottle of buffered C in the form of ascorbyl palmitate, calcium ascorbate, magnesium ascorbate and potassium ascorbate given me by my ND. Unless I can find any studies/data to the contrary I'd like to continue taking it. So MT if you're still monitoring this thread could you pretty please direct me to any studies/data/references etc that support this premise. Thank-you

[Alvie]

Thanks for bumping this back to the first page, I was also trying to find some more info on the sodium ascorbate/metabolism question. Some links or sources of info would be great! I posted on the nutrition/immunology thread, but I guess I should have posted here...let me find my previous post...it was a pretty good read for anyone who is interested:

I have one concern, MT...regarding the Sodium Ascorbate powder that was mentioned a while ago. Is that amount of sodium wise to take when doing a large amount of Vit C, like say 4000 - 5000mg? There is about 131 mg sodium/gram of vit C, so that's 655mg of sodium your'e taking. Is all that sodium used up in the metabolism of Vit C? Or is that going to hang around in your body?
What about using Magnesium Ascorbate as an alternative? Or would that be akin to taking calcium ascorbate, in that over the long term it would cause a sodium deficiency?
I'm much more comfortable taking extra magnesium than sodium....as excess magnesium is easier to eliminate from kidneys than sodium is. The body actually has a mechanism in the kidneys to conserve sodium at the expense of Mg and K.

I did some study on electrolyte balance and how it relates to health, and know that problems occur when faced with high sodium/calcium and low pottassium/magnesium. Sodium is found in majority in blood and plasma and Pottassium and Magnesium in the cells...and this state is not fixed, the electrolytes are in constant motion in what is called the day/night cycle. During the day, sodium, calcium, and other bits and pieces move slowly into the cells displacing some of the Mg and K. At night, Mg and K should move back into the cells, allowing for the relaxation of muscles during sleeping hours. (Which would explain some of the symptoms of Mag deficiency...insomnia, not feeling rested upon waking, muscle cramps etc)

Which brings us to the problems that occur when Na (sodium) and Ca are in excess, which is common in the diet most people have in the west. Na moves into the cells during the day, but is not removed at night by Mg and K....the cells become acidic and metabolic problems occur....calcium enters to buffer the acidity, and drops out of solution, thereby 'calcifying' the tissues. This is a big problem in many degenerative conditions. (Interestingly, when calcium drops out of solution, the body will pull more from the bones to keep the blood calcium levels stable...)

My shift has been to a low sodium and high K (potassium) and Mg diet. Along with other detox tecniques, and Mag supplementation (along with other important co factors like B vits especially B3 and 6, Vit C and E, zinc, selenium, and trace minerals, EFAs. (I don't supplement with calcium)
Initially there was a great shift of stored sodium in my body, with symptoms like my palms peeling, hang nails, mouth ulcers, muscle stiffness etc....and 3 or 4 years down the line, I must say, I think there is still more to be removed....although most of those initial symptoms have cleared up....

So - this brings me back to my initial worry of the sodium content of Sodium Ascorbate. I would be very interested in the source of your research on this, maybe you could give me a link.

A great book which deals with this subject is Max Gerson's "A Cancer Therapy- results of 50 cases",He talks about the role of electrolyte balance in disease, a great man he was, and way before his time.

The site http://www.natnut.co.uk
(sorry I don't know if I inserted that link properly) Thats the college I studied at in England and I think they have a forum although I have not been to it in ages. The college has a great philosophy though, and worth looking into.

All the best on your quest for knowledge!

[Pookietooth]

Alvie, on the site that you posted, I couldn't find anything about nutrition, just about the school itself. I regret now freaking out and throwing out a $23 bottle of calcium ascobate -- I'm thinking it's really not necessarily so bad, in that I wasn't taking huge doses and anyway I'm not doing much dairy these days (it gives me migraines) or eating many leafy greens either. Oh well, live and learn.

[Alvie]

Yeah, all the nutrition info was on the forums which don't seem to be working right now....sorry 'bout that....
Anyway, the important thing of what I learned there was the fact that sodium excess can be a real problem, not just for hypertension, but for general health...

[carnelian]

Alvie, I was under the impression that it's specifically the chloride form of sodium that's been implicated in hypertension.

[Alvie]

I believe too much sodium in any form can lead to imbalances, especially if there is an underlying magnesium and potassium deficiency. Magnesium and pottassium are 2 minerals commonly low in most diets. Sodium chloride happens to be the form that is used so prevalently , so yes, I would think that it is implicated with hypertension and other illnesses. Naturally occuring sodium in vegetables usually has a corresponding amount of potassium (2 or 3 times as much potassium than sodium) so would be less likely to cause an imbalance.

Which is why I'm inquiring about sodium ascorbate...I am just concerned about that much sodium causing an imbalance, and would like to research it more.

That book I mentioned before, Max Gerson's cancer therapy talks about this topic. His nutritional therapy involves a strict vegetable and fruit based diet with some whole grains and they do about 13 fresh vegetable juices a day. Thats a whopping amount of potassium. Plus they take extra potassium in supplement form. No salt allowed. Potassium and sodium have an atagonistic relationship in our body, and this rush of potassium into the cells would displace the sodium that is stored there. He noticed that these patients excreted great amounts of sodium over a period of time, and after some time on this diet, their cancer was healed. Which led him to the theory that somehow this excessive sodium lodges itself in human tissue and causes tumor growth (among other things) as excess sodium in our cells changes the pH to acid and causes metabolic disturbances.
(sadly, like all other amazing breakthroughs in natural medicine, his facility was shut down by the American government and The Gerson therapy was banned here I guess the AMA felt a bit threatened- there are still some clinics in Mexico)

Usually the more I learn, the more questions I have....and I was also interested in MT's research about free floating calcium causing cancer to florish...interesting.