Originally Posted by Alvie
I have one concern, MT...regarding the Sodium Ascorbate powder that was mentioned a while ago. Is that amount of sodium wise to take when doing a large amount of Vit C, like say 4000 - 5000mg? There is about 131 mg sodium/gram of vit C, so that's 655mg of sodium your'e taking. Is all that sodium used up in the metabolism of Vit C? Or is that going to hang around in your body?
I thought I had answered this, but seemingly, its still an issue.
Why would sodium presented with ascorbate be an issue, when it is used
to split the ascorbate molecule in order to use it, and excreted in the process?
|What about using Magnesium Ascorbate as an alternative?
of what biological function would that be, in terms of the biochemical way ascorbate is utilised? Assuming the form of magnesium was bioavailable, it would be better than calcium because we are a calcium excess society and chronically magnesium deficient, but it still wouldn't solve the issue that ascorbate requires a sodium ion in order to be split.
|Or would that be akin to taking calcium ascorbate, in that over the long term it would cause a sodium deficiency?
Mag asc, would cause the same sodium depletion as calc asc (since it would still be pulled from the body in order to deal with the ascorbate), with the difference that at least you wouldn't be contributing to even more calcium excess, which would need to be chelated out.
At least the magnesium would perform an alkalinising function, and redress some of the chronic magnesium shortages that are prevalent in society today.
|I'm much more comfortable taking extra magnesium than sodium....as excess magnesium is easier to eliminate from kidneys than sodium is. The body actually has a mechanism in the kidneys to conserve sodium at the expense of Mg and K.
Like I say, if you try it and it works for you fine. I'm assuming then, that you will have sufficient sodium naturally in your diet to allow for processing of ascorbate. If that is not the case, then you might pay the same price that I did. And its' not pretty.
I know many people who have tried calcium ascorbate, and believe that vitamin C is useless, becuase it made their conditions worse, not better. When they change to SA, their health changes.
But, and you might not like this, I don't listen to people in health food shops. While they like to think they are altruistic and knowledgeable, many of them are as much parrots as are CDC-quoting doctors.
|I did some study on electrolyte balance and how it relates to health, and know that problems occur when faced with high sodium/calcium and low pottassium/magnesium.
Absolutely, but the main key for potassium is magnesium, as its magnesium that unlocks the cell walls to potassium.
|Sodium is found in majority in blood and plasma and Pottassium and Magnesium in the cells...and this state is not fixed, the electrolytes are in constant motion in what is called the day/night cycle.
True. But long term, if you take very high doses of ester C, you are going to deepen the depths to which sodium must be taken, and that can have dire consequences.
|During the day, sodium, calcium, and other bits and pieces move slowly into the cells displacing some of the Mg and K. At night, Mg and K should move back into the cells, allowing for the relaxation of muscles during sleeping hours. (Which would explain some of the symptoms of Mag deficiency...insomnia, not feeling rested upon waking, muscle cramps etc)
Which brings us to the problems that occur when Na (sodium) and Ca are in excess, which is common in the diet most people have in the west. Na moves into the cells during the day, but is not removed at night by Mg and K....the cells become acidic and metabolic problems occur....calcium enters to buffer the acidity, and drops out of solution, thereby 'calcifying' the tissues. This is a big problem in many degenerative conditions. (Interestingly, when calcium drops out of solution, the body will pull more from the bones to keep the blood calcium levels stable...)
But the sodium in sodium ascorbate is irrelevant to this equation since it is utilised in the process and isn't treated like salt you shove onto tomatoes by the pinchful.
|My shift has been to a low sodium and high K (potassium) and Mg diet. Along with other detox tecniques, and Mag supplementation (along with other important co factors like B vits especially B3 and 6, Vit C and E, zinc, selenium, and trace minerals, EFAs. (I don't supplement with calcium)
Initially there was a great shift of stored sodium in my body, with symptoms like my palms peeling, hang nails, mouth ulcers, muscle stiffness etc....and 3 or 4 years down the line, I must say, I think there is still more to be removed....although most of those initial symptoms have cleared up....
So - this brings me back to my initial worry of the sodium content of Sodium Ascorbate. I would be very interested in the source of your research on this, maybe you could give me a link.
My sources are from many books. Irwin Stone, Steve Hickey, Professor Clemetson's texts, and Dr Kalokerinos's books.
I have talked to many of the doctors who use vitamin C, and most favour sodium ascorbate. Some use a combination of sodium, magnesium and potassium ascorbate in some of their patients, but again, that is done on a case by case assessment, since some people will alter their diet, and others will not.
however, for the purposes of this discussion, I will type out what is written in Dr Kalokerinos's book "Vitamin C":
|The facts: molecular weights.
Molecular weight of Sodium Ascorbate = 198
Molecular weight of sodium = 23
i.e. % of sodium in sodium ascorbate = 12% (Actually 11.6%)If 1 heaped teaspoonful Sodium Ascorbate - 4 grams then 12% = sodium ion i.e. 480mg.
3 heaped teaspoonsfuls per day = 1.44 grams of sodium per day.
The recommended intake of sodium on a low salt diet is 2.0 grams per day, so 1.44 grams i still well short of the recommended sodium intake i.e. even by orthodix standards, 3 heaped teaspoonfuls of sodium Ascorbate per day does not represent a lot of sodium.
As a matter of interest the molecular weight of NaCl = 57, i.e. 40% of the weight = sodium. I teaspoonful of salt would give more sodium than 3 heaped teaspoonfuls of sodium Ascorbate.
SODIUM OF SOCIUM ASCORBATE IS HANDLED DIFFERENTLY IN THE BODY TO SODIUM OF SODIUM CHLORIDE AND SODIUM OF SODIUM BICARBONATE.
At the kidney interface the ascorbate anion is excreted along with a dosium cation as its major co-ion (pg 89 - 90, Vitamin C - It's molecular Biology and Meidcal Potential, Dr Sherry Lewin Ph.D)
I.e. Ascorbate drags out sodium ion as its major co-ion when its is excreted via the kidneys. Very small amounts only of K+, NH4-, Ca++, Mg++ and some heavy metals are co-excreted.
The sodium of sodium cchloride is excreted along with several coions and does not have the advantage of the chloride anion dragging sodium out through the kidney tubules in the same way as the Ascorbate anion drags out the sodium ion.
In short, Alvie, do what you want. I will stick with what the doctors who use vitamin C most, have found to be the least destructive for body biochemistry as a whole.
If you disagree with them, that is your choice.
|A great book which deals with this subject is Max Gerson's "A Cancer Therapy- results of 50 cases",He talks about the role of electrolyte balance in disease, a great man he was, and way before his time.
The site http://www.natnut.co.uk
(sorry I don't know if I inserted that link properly) Thats the college I studied at in England and I think they have a forum although I have not been to it in ages. The college has a great philosophy though, and worth looking into.
All the best on your quest for knowledge!
He was a man before his time, and a doctor here, Eva Hill, was cured of cancer through his methods.
That doesn't mean that he knew all there was to know about vitamin C.