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Sodium Ascorbate - Page 20

post #381 of 564
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Originally Posted by Just_Isabel View Post
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The iron balance is something that's a very fine balance. If you do a google search using Iron + infection, you will see that not enough iron, and you are susceptible to infection, and too much, and as you say, bacteria can have a field day.
So how do we know when we have the right amount? What signs would our bodies show that we are getting just enough?
(Does Pfeiffer talk about this in the Mental & Elemental Nutr. book? I just ordered it yesterday. )
Yes, there is a lot in that book, but as adults we know by how we feel, the colour of our nails and insides of the eyelids.

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Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
I never take iron supplements as they always upset my stomach majorly.
I stopped taking them the day after they made my stomach more upset than it's ever been since I can remember myself. :
Now I'm pretty sure it was the iron suppl. and not the Vit C that upset my gut.
Some people get diarrhoa, and with some people (like me) it constipated them and they get headaches and double vision.


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
I'm not into revenge
I meant what happens when you take too much Vit C. I think you called that "Momtezuma's revenge" yourself somewhere:
Yeah, someone else did as a joke. The proper name for travellers diarrhoea is Montezuma's Revenge. Different person


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
I'd quit that iron formulation and find a better one. I use one that dairy farmers use on cows that's based on blackstrap molasses. Tastes foul, so it must be good for me
I think I'll first try to get it through food - I started eating red meat (was vegetarian before), and I'll try to always have some SA before eating iron rich foods to help with absorption.
I do it mainly through food, and my instincts seem to work pretty well, but in the middle of winter I usually go for some cow lick
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If that doesn't work, I will try another iron supplement, but I googled the one I got and it seems to be one of the best.
It can be the best in the world and still make someone sick.

Pycnogenol, is something a lot of people swear by, and get great results on. Me? It gives me excrutiating arthritis in the hips.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
The problem might be your gut flora, because if its out of balance more towards gram negative, (or yeast) then you have have a growling orchestra.
Gram negative like high pHs, right?
Gram negatives like excess protein, which creates alkaline faeces around 7.0 - 8.0 and those are the conditions gram negatives like
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Can I assume my gut is acidic if my urine is?
I probably would assume that, but I'd also go by the consistency and frequency of what you do down the toilet. It should be soft, and ideally, float.
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And I've been drinking plenty of kefir, so I'm hoping I'll have them in my gut in enough numbers to protect me from too much of the "bad" microorganisms.
You have to have acidophilus as well, and kefir doesn't have much of that in it. I make a probiotic yoghurt, and have yakult. I mix the kefir with the yoghurt when I eat it, and use the yakult as the "milk" on top. Might be what you call the shotgun approach.

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I'm starting to think that I need to learn more medicine than a medicine student just to figure these things out.
Wrong. The med student never learns any of this, so you already know more than your doctor does
post #382 of 564
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I probably would assume that, but I'd also go by the consistency and frequency of what you do down the toilet. It should be soft, and ideally, float.
so floating poop is a good thing? mine has been hit and miss since having ds, i get constipatied very fast (less than 24hrs) with stress, the slightest change in my water consumption or a food that didnt agree with me. Is there anything I can do to help that from your knowledge? I'm dairy free pretty much because of ds, so i can't add in yoghurt or keifer. Sometimes i have soft and float, most the time its just soft (if I watch myself).
post #383 of 564
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Originally Posted by romans_mum View Post
so floating poop is a good thing?
Well, that's the ideal, since it means that the bacterial balance is primarily aerobic, and your pre and probiotic content is ideal, but there will be times when it won't be like that, like when you have a binge on black chocolate and licorice at the same time

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mine has been hit and miss since having ds, i get constipatied very fast (less than 24hrs) with stress, the slightest change in my water consumption or a food that didnt agree with me. Is there anything I can do to help that from your knowledge?
Have you noticed that when you od on sa, that what comes out floats? That's partly kill off, but its also because it encourages aerobics.
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I'm dairy free pretty much because of ds, so i can't add in yoghurt or keifer.
Yes, you can. Kefir can be made with any form of milk, like rice, barley or goat, but its consistency won't be thick and rich like with cow's milk.
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Sometimes i have soft and float, most the time its just soft (if I watch myself).
I would just major on getting your fibre from salads and fruit, peaches, nectarines, avocados and whole grains, or whatever suits you best. It's nuts that can constipate me, so I have to be careful with them.
post #384 of 564
I was under the impression that floating stool was not good.

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Floating stools
Stools that float are generally associated with some degree of malabsorption of foods or excessive flatus/gas. Floating stool is seen is a variety of different situations, the majority being diet-related or in association with episodes of diarrhea caused by an acute gastrointestinal infection. A change in dietary habits can lead to an increase in the amount of gas produced by bacteria in the gastrointestinal tract. Similarly, acute gastrointestinal infections can result in increased air/gas content from rapid movement of food through the GI tract. One misconception is that floating stools are caused by an increase in the fat content of the stool. In fact, increased air/gas levels in the stool make it less dense and allow it to float. Another cause of floating stools is malabsorption. More than two weeks of diarrhea with floating stools is often seen in people suffering from malabsorption, a dysfunction in the GI tract that affects the body's ability to digest and absorb fat and other food. Increased levels of nutrients in the stool (those not absorbed by the GI tract) are supplied to the normal bacteria that live in the gut, which in turn produce more gas. This results in more air/gas- rich stool that floats. Dietary changes, diarrhea, and malabsorption can cause floating stools. Most causes are benign and will resolve when the infection ends or the bacteria in the GI tract become accustomed to the changes in your diet.
That is from enzyme stuff

post #385 of 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post
Yeah, someone else did as a joke. The proper name for travellers diarrhoea is Montezuma's Revenge. Different person
Oops!

I'll have to come back to this later, I don't really have time right now. But this stool talk is very interesting.

And at the same time frustrating because I really should stop obsessing about medicine and do my school stuff! Ack.

Anyway, I can't see if my stool floats or not, most toilets here aren't built that way, the stool doesn't fall into a bunch of water, but on to a "platform" with a little water, and then when you flush the water takes it away. Does that make sense? Did anyone even want to read about the different toilets in the world?

Joining acidophilus and yakult to my kefir should be easy though.
post #386 of 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine View Post
I was under the impression that floating stool was not good.
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Floating stools
Stools that float are generally associated with some degree of malabsorption of foods or excessive flatus/gas. Floating stool is seen is a variety of different situations, the majority being diet-related or in association with episodes of diarrhea caused by an acute gastrointestinal infection. A change in dietary habits can lead to an increase in the amount of gas produced by bacteria in the gastrointestinal tract. Similarly, acute gastrointestinal infections can result in increased air/gas content from rapid movement of food through the GI tract. One misconception is that floating stools are caused by an increase in the fat content of the stool. In fact, increased air/gas levels in the stool make it less dense and allow it to float. Another cause of floating stools is malabsorption. More than two weeks of diarrhea with floating stools is often seen in people suffering from malabsorption, a dysfunction in the GI tract that affects the body's ability to digest and absorb fat and other food. Increased levels of nutrients in the stool (those not absorbed by the GI tract) are supplied to the normal bacteria that live in the gut, which in turn produce more gas. This results in more air/gas- rich stool that floats. Dietary changes, diarrhea, and malabsorption can cause floating stools. Most causes are benign and will resolve when the infection ends or the bacteria in the GI tract become accustomed to the changes in your diet.

That is from enzyme stuff

All of which goes to show that there is a lot of stuff to wade through in the internet.

For instance... if you have stools with increased fat in them, they will be very yellow, longish and thin and you will feel terrible, because your liver and gall bladder will be feeling the pressure. Now having been in this position, I can say that in my experience, fat laden poos do not float. They are sticky, stringy and sink fast.

What I know is this. After I did a raft of gall bladder flushes ( the ones people say are a load of rubbish) not only did my liver enzymes return to normal, but my fat laden poos also returned to normal once I got the stones out of my liver and my gall bladder, and enable the bile to move properly. So long as I have plenty of fruit and veges, etc what I produce is soft, sometimes floats, sometimes doesn't, and I don't really worry about it. I feel most comfortable when they float more than sink, but that's me.

I've read a lot about it, and decided what works best for me, but I'm queer and we all know that.

What you have to do is read everything there is about it, study your own body, keep a diary and work out when you feel best, how your body works, and try to achieve that.

For me, being a person who naturally skews towards constipation and sinkers, vitamin C, fruit and veges are part of what I need to make things soft, fluffy and not crack the porcelain when it bombs the bottom of the chamber pot.
post #387 of 564
: and really enjoying the descriptive disscusion

I was also under the impression that "floaties" are a sign of malabsorbtion, although I definately have not read up much about that, except that we have gluten intolerences here and that seems to be what the so-called "experts" say is one of the symptoms of gluten intolerence?

I agree that it has to be more of a personal, "the way your body works " kinda thing.
post #388 of 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post
For me, being a person who naturally skews towards constipation and sinkers, vitamin C, fruit and veges are part of what I need to make things soft, fluffy and not crack the porcelain when it bombs the bottom of the chamber pot.
You and me both, honey. Oh, MT I think it would be such great fun to sit and have a coffee klatch together or the like. Too bad you are on the other end of the earth.
post #389 of 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post
Have you noticed that when you od on sa, that what comes out floats? That's partly kill off, but its also because it encourages aerobics. Yes, you can. Kefir can be made with any form of milk, like rice, barley or goat, but its consistency won't be thick and rich like with cow's milk. I would just major on getting your fibre from salads and fruit, peaches, nectarines, avocados and whole grains, or whatever suits you best. It's nuts that can constipate me, so I have to be careful with them.
i'm also nutless because of ds. I will definatly try upping my fresh fruit and veges. I will look for keifer made from rice milk. Can I also just take probiotics in capsule form, or is the keifer more readily absorbed?

ETA: but I'm still as nutty as a fruitcake
post #390 of 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post
What I know is this. After I did a raft of gall bladder flushes ( the ones people say are a load of rubbish) not only did my liver enzymes return to normal, but my fat laden poos also returned to normal once I got the stones out of my liver and my gall bladder, and enable the bile to move properly. So long as I have plenty of fruit and veges, etc what I produce is soft, sometimes floats, sometimes doesn't, and I don't really worry about it. I feel most comfortable when they float more than sink, but that's me.

yeah, i saw a huge difference after they removed my gall bladder..... i paid much attention before, but once it was removed, my stools definatly became normaler. Obviously not as perfect as it would be if I still had my gall bladder sans stones.


Quote:
For me, being a person who naturally skews towards constipation and sinkers, vitamin C, fruit and veges are part of what I need to make things soft, fluffy and not crack the porcelain when it bombs the bottom of the chamber pot.
I also constipate easy since ds, so i will definatly try and be like you

its amazing how much our bodys can change after kids. Before ds, my regular was ever 2-3days and I never constipated, now if I dont go at least daily and if i dont drink at least 8 glasses of water, i get constipated. Of course, breastfeeding probably has something to do with that.
post #391 of 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post
Yes, there is a lot in that book, but as adults we know by how we feel, the colour of our nails and insides of the eyelids.
What about the color of our nails? Mine are always the same color - except when I eat a tangerine or mandarin, then they turn orangish.

And I can't see the insides of my eyelids, what happens to them and how? :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post
Gram negatives like excess protein,
So, do they take what our body didn't absorb after its done with the absorbtion process? Or do they start feeding on it at the same stage of digestion when we also absorb it?

Would an Atkins diet make the Gram neg. grow a bunch? (I'm not doing it, but many people seem to be, and they are supposed to eat lots of protein and fats.) Are gram neg bacteria anaerobic?

What do the acidophilus, kefir and L. casei (Shirota) eat? Lactose? If it's lactose, how often do I need to have dairy for them to thrive? Does cheese count?

I want to go back to not having to think about food. :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara View Post
which creates alkaline faeces around 7.0 - 8.0 and those are the conditions gram negatives like
So... excess protein --> alkaline environment (because of the N?)?
post #392 of 564
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Originally Posted by caedmyn View Post
MT (or anyone else who knows)--do you know why large doses of vitamin C cause major gas & bloating? I mostly take sodium ascorbate to almost bowel tolerance but sometimes I just get tired of the horrible gas so I don't take it for a while..
I have a very gassy 5.5 month old. I drink at least 3g of emergen-c daily (haven't gotten SA yet)...could I be contributing to his gas issues?

FYI - We've tried all kinds of diet changes and chiro and nothing changed his gas. I'm taking him to a homeopath in a couple of weeks.
post #393 of 564
Is there anything you need to do differently for an infant when giving SA other than a smaller dosage? I have a friend with a three month old.
post #394 of 564
Roman's Mum-

Rather than look for premade rice milk kefir, you could get kefir grains and make your own-can I say there is a sticky at the top of the trad foods forum for people w/ kefir grains looking for loving homes? (I know we're not supposed to mention other threads/forums...but this isn't snarky so is it ok?)

I've not had time/patience/energy to get it yet-rumor has it coconut milk kefir is yummy but not sure what sort of bugs or vit/min profile it would have-maybe you already know all this, but thought I'd toss it out for those that were listening in that didn't...
post #395 of 564
thanks for the tip, i cant do coconut, i dont want to risk it. My family has a history of coconut allergies, and since I'm still bf I don't want to expose him yet.
post #396 of 564
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Originally Posted by romans_mum View Post
thanks for the tip, i cant do coconut, i dont want to risk it. My family has a history of coconut allergies, and since I'm still bf I don't want to expose him yet.
You can get water kefir grains and make kefir sodas with sugar water and fruit or juice for flavoring.
post #397 of 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_Isabel View Post
What about the color of our nails? Mine are always the same color - except when I eat a tangerine or mandarin, then they turn orangish.
If you are anaemic, your nail beds will be pale, and if you squeeze the end of the finger between thumb and finger, let go, there will be no rebound pink. Then you know you are anaemic. But by then, any blood tests done correctly, should have told you that.

But in trying to answer these questions, I can also see that where the basics of health is no longer taught, on the assumption that the experts have taken control of that, discussion of things like this can be quite hard.

There is a lot to learn about nails, nail beds, different sorts of ridges on nails, trenches... many conditions in nails can show you what is happening on the inside of the body. Some of that will come up on a google search.

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And I can't see the insides of my eyelids, what happens to them and how? :
You put your fingers just under your lower eye lashes, and pull the flesh in the direction in which your feet reside. Assuming you are standing. Then you should be able to see the inside of your lower eyelids. But I guess if you aren't familiar with what healthy lower inside eyelids look like, you won't figure what unhealthy ones look like.

The inside of your lower lid should look a light pin (define light pink she says ) but if you are anaemic, the inside of the lid will look almost white.

Again, maybe you could do a google image search, or ask older people around, who might still know how to describe it to you.

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So, do they take what our body didn't absorb after its done with the absorbtion process?
No. Excess protein causes a more alkaline ph, which alters the gut composition, and suits the nutritional needs of gram negative bacteria. This is the same reason why laboratories, when they culture for Staph, will use a completely different nutrient composition than when they culture for diphtheria. Both bacteria need a different nutritional basis upon which to grow.
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Or do they start feeding on it at the same stage of digestion when we also absorb it?
That would depend on how bad your system has got, as to when it started. If you stomach hydrochloric acid was terrible, it could start quite high up in the digestive tract.

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Would an Atkins diet make the Gram neg. grow a bunch? (I'm not doing it, but many people seem to be, and they are supposed to eat lots of protein and fats.) Are gram neg bacteria anaerobic?
This thread is primarily about vitamin C. It's very useful against toxins put out by gram negative bacteria.

Rather than answer your question, the best way to deal with this would be to give you some study tips.

The key to google, is to use key words effective.

If you don't know what anaerobic bacteria are, but into google different phrases like

anaerobic organisms.

anaerobic bacteria

anaerobic infections
or even a big mouthful like
Pathogenicity of anaerobic bacteria
Play around with word combinations and read whatever takes your fancy.

It may be a lot longer than someone giving you the answer, but it might also help you understand the issues more thoroughly. The problem for you will be that medical articles use a language from Mars, and you may find yourself ready to scream after about a paragraph, because they use long words when simple explanations would suffice. Which is all part of making ordinary people feel stupid.

Here is an example of what I mean. One article that comes up on a search is this one here:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/534796

Being realistic, forget about it. There is however, one sentence which says:

Quote:
this ecosystem is readily influenced by a variety of physiologic and other host factors, such as age, pregnancy, menses, diet, underlying disease, hospitalization, and antimicrobial therapy
Then the rest of the article is almost inaccessible to an ordinary brain, and one of the reasons I think that is so, is because the authors don't really understand the influences of those things they put there, in a meaningful sense, so they revert to discussions of mechanisms and treatment, as they see it. Nowhere is there any evidence that the person who wrote this, really understands the basis of health, and how to create it.

So that will be the biggest problem you will have when reading medical literature...

On the other hand, this article, might be slightly more accessible to your brain than the first one:

http://www.gsbs.utmb.edu/microbook/ch019.htm

The secret may be to ignore the russian words the first time, just snorkel generally, get a feel, and then go back and pick it apart.

Again, the treatment options are all chemical. No thought of changing, the feedstock in any way, as the Russians used to try to do

The gut will be a mix of organisms, but certain food patterns encourage certain combinations. Therefore, for instance, because baby formula is a much higher protein than breastmilk, (or was, when they studied it) it is of no surprise that older medical literature in the days when these things were considered worth of study, found that formula fed babies had a much higher level of gram negative bacteria.

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What do the acidophilus, kefir and L. casei (Shirota) eat? Lactose? If it's lactose, how often do I need to have dairy for them to thrive? Does cheese count?
Not necessarily they feed off sugars and they come in many forms.... Think Sauercraut, which is an acidophilus food. There is no lactose in cabbage. I think you need to go and do a search on what probiotics are, and what they do. Here is one off google:

http://www.philippinenews.com/news/v...a0da448646a7f3

There are many races that have lactose intolerance, who eat probiotics, all of which are made on a huge variety of foods, not just dairy.

Quote:

I want to go back to not having to think about food. :



So... excess protein --> alkaline environment (because of the N?)?
Too much protein, particularly in the form of meat,dairy etc... causes the body to leach out calcium. The key though is balance. It's vitally important to get fresh raw foods and the whys of it which help to balance out the negatives of protein. This is what worried me about Atkins.. ...

This url may seem obscure, but sometimes vets put things in ways that doctors could learn from, and in some ways our guts aren't so different to animals

http://www.nodpa.com/health.html

Go down to the article called W)HOLISTIC ANIMAL HUSBANDRY
by Jerry Brunetti
and read the

five digestive keynotes

Also look at the specific treatments, and ask yourself why they don't suggest these for humans.
post #398 of 564
To confuse things further, you might want to tackle this article:

http://www.tuberose.com/Acid_Base_Balance.html

But its not a walk in the park to understand.
post #399 of 564
Yeah, I finally read all 11 pages of this thread!!!

I bought vitamin C powder the other day, and when I came home I realized it was ascorbic acid, not sodium ascorbate.

I get plenty of salt in my diet- is there any reason NOT to take the AA?

And why isn't this thread stickied? I was going nuts trying to find it, started a new thread that got moved out of here, etc.
post #400 of 564
A good discussion on vitamin C types, advantages and disadvantages:

http://tomlevymd.com/archiveissue9.htm

AA is very harsh on the system. If you've read the whole thread, you will have seen the posts on sodium bicarbonate to make it less acid....

If they stickied everything I thought should be stickied, we'd have no first page

Using the search this thread function, the posts came up:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...&postcount=321

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...&postcount=323
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