Sodium Ascorbate - Page 26

[MyLittleWonders]

I use powder/crystals because I mix mine with a smoothie or in a small glass of water/juice. It's also easier to hide if I need to dose-up any of the boys when they are sick.

[AprilM]

Originally Posted by Ex Libris

Hello,
I just wanted to let everyone know of my experience regarding high dose Vitamin C. I've been taking anywhere from 4-15 mg a day of sodium ascorbate for the last 3 years, depending on need. This last year I began having problems with my hands--they would get red and swollen throughout the day. I saw several doctors, none of whom could diagnose the problem.

Turns out that I have developed an oxalate problem because Vitamin C can convert to oxalates in the body (similar to what kidney stones are made of, except the oxalates are deposited--and wreak havoc--throughout the body rather than the kidneys).

I found this out because my ASD son has a problem with oxalates, too, and when reading around on the oxalate yahoo group, red hands were mentioned as one (of many) symptoms. I now have to be on a low oxalate diet to encourage my body to dump the excess oxalates. Not fun.

I'm not saying this could happen to everyone; I just wanted to share my experience in case it might apply to others.

Kelly

Ok....this scares me. I was reading through this thread and was totally convinced I was going to start my 7 month old baby on daily C regime until I read this.

[Ex Libris]

Originally Posted by AprilM

Ok....this scares me. I was reading through this thread and was totally convinced I was going to start my 7 month old baby on daily C regime until I read this.

This should be taken seriously. If anyone wants to learn about vitamin C and it's conversion to oxalates should subscribe to the Yahoo group Trying Low Oxalates or check out the website (for an overview): http://lowoxalate.info/index.html The moderator/owner is Susan Owens, and she is one of the world's most knowledgeable people on oxalates (she almost died as a result of them years ago and has been studying oxalates and sulfur chemistry ever since). She's got several graduate degrees in the sciences and works in conjunction with the Autism Research Group to study the effects of the low oxalate diet for kids on the spectrum, as well as others with chronic health problems (such as fibromyalgia, CF, and crohns). She backs up everything she says with medical studies--you'll see a long list of pub med references after almost every post she makes. She has studied the vitamin C issue extensively, and it is a concern in the quantities suggested on this forum, especially for those with yeast, leaky gut, or people who have taken antibiotics recently or used them heavily in the past (the antibiotics kill of the friendly bacteria that degrade oxalates).

The signs of oxalate problems vary somewhat by individual because oxalates tend to accumulate in areas of prior injuries. So if you have pains in those places since being on vitamin C, it's might be the oxalates. Also, it can get into bones, joints, and nerves, so you might experience pain in those areas. Also, these tend to be somewhat universal symptoms--frequent or urgent or painful urination (especially frequent), and red hands. Some also experience digestive disturbances, sleep problems, pain in the vulvar area (called vulvodinya), and brain fog. Plus a whole host of other things.

But as Susan has said, there is no test for oxalates. The only way to tell if you have a problem with oxalates is to go on the low oxalate diet (including stopping the vitamin C) for about 2 weeks. If you feel better at first and then feel worse, you have a problem. In other words, you stop the oxalate intake (which makes you feel better), which then causes the body to start dumping stored oxalates (which then makes you feel worse). If you experience no change, you're fine.

I wish I had known this a long time ago.

Kelly

[Panserbjorne]

Ex Libris....that is scary. I'm so sorry you had to go through that! I'm wondering though....why does she not like the standard urine test for oxalates? It is run by pretty mainstream labs. Just curious. It's used by many doctors who specialize in environmental medicine as well as autism.

[momofmine]

Originally Posted by Ex Libris

She has studied the vitamin C issue extensively, and it is a concern in the quantities suggested on this forum, especially for those with yeast, leaky gut, or people who have taken antibiotics recently or used them heavily in the past (the antibiotics kill of the friendly bacteria that degrade oxalates).

The signs of oxalate problems vary somewhat by individual because oxalates tend to accumulate in areas of prior injuries. So if you have pains in those places since being on vitamin C, it's might be the oxalates. Also, it can get into bones, joints, and nerves, so you might experience pain in those areas. Also, these tend to be somewhat universal symptoms--frequent or urgent or painful urination (especially frequent), and red hands. Some also experience digestive disturbances, sleep problems, pain in the vulvar area (called vulvodinya), and brain fog. Plus a whole host of other things.

But as Susan has said, there is no test for oxalates. The only way to tell if you have a problem with oxalates is to go on the low oxalate diet (including stopping the vitamin C) for about 2 weeks. If you feel better at first and then feel worse, you have a problem. In other words, you stop the oxalate intake (which makes you feel better), which then causes the body to start dumping stored oxalates (which then makes you feel worse). If you experience no change, you're fine.

I wish I had known this a long time ago.

Kelly

So, once you stop the C and go on a low-oxalate diet, the symptoms can reverse?

Originally Posted by Panserbjørne

Ex Libris....that is scary. I'm so sorry you had to go through that! I'm wondering though....why does she not like the standard urine test for oxalates? It is run by pretty mainstream labs. Just curious. It's used by many doctors who specialize in environmental medicine as well as autism.

Is this a test you can take to see if you are someone who is sensitive to this and might want to use the C with caution?

[Ex Libris]

Originally Posted by momofmine

So, once you stop the C and go on a low-oxalate diet, the symptoms can reverse?

Yes, the damage can be reversed over time as you dump stored oxalates from tissues.

Is this a test you can take to see if you are someone who is sensitive to this and might want to use the C with caution?

A urinary oxalate test can only tell you what your body is excreting, not what is stored in your tissues. In fact, a low oxalate output via urine (which might make you think you don't have an oxalate problem) is more likely to mean you are not a good excreter. I had an organic acid test which tests for oxalates and my number came back low, even though I have stored a huge amount from the sodium ascorbate.

Kelly

[Panserbjorne]

Kelly,
Thanks for the reply. I hadn't yet gotten around to researching the test, but assumed it was something of that nature. I appreciate it!

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by Ex Libris

She has studied the vitamin C issue extensively, and it is a concern in the quantities suggested on this forum, especially for those with yeast, leaky gut, or people who have taken antibiotics recently or used them heavily in the past (the antibiotics kill of the friendly bacteria that degrade oxalates).

I wonder if this is an issue when vit C is taken in conjunction with "good bacteria", whole food probiotics which recolonize the gut. To me, it still seems to ignore the root solution. Avoiding something healthy, such as vit C, or nutrient dense foods which happen to be high in oxylates doesn't seem to address the *reason* these become issues for an individual body.

Our SAD is so sterilized of the native microbials and nutrient density that traditional diets consumed. I believe that is where the "problem" originates.

(Yes, and throw in over use of antibiotics in our health care system and our food system, of course.)


Pat

[Panserbjorne]

Pat, this is yet another detox pathways issue. When the paths are narrowed oxalates are allowed to build up. That is why people with oxalate issue can't often tolerate an epsom salt soak. It doesnt' harm them but it feels uncomfortable (needle pricks) and causes flushing....specifically to the ears and face. It can also make them hyperactive.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by Panserbjørne

Pat, this is yet another detox pathways issue. When the paths are narrowed oxalates are allowed to build up. That is why people with oxalate issue can't often tolerate an epsom salt soak. It doesnt' harm them but it feels uncomfortable (needle pricks) and causes flushing....specifically to the ears and face. It can also make them hyperactive.

Stop confusing me.

I have my theories and I'm not open to more information.


Pat

[Panserbjorne]

:l ol

that's what I suspected.

:

[tanyalynn]

The folks at the vitamin k yahoo group deal specifically with kids (and adults) who have poor tolerance for oxalates. They've got a protocol using fat soluble vitamins and VSL#3 among other things to help improve oxalate clearance, with the goal of not needing to stay on a low oxalate diet long-term. It's not our issue, so I can't attest to how it works, but it seems that some people are finding it helpful.

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by TanyaLopez

The folks at the vitamin k yahoo group deal specifically with kids (and adults) who have poor tolerance for oxalates. They've got a protocol using fat soluble vitamins and VSL#3 among other things to help improve oxalate clearance, with the goal of not needing to stay on a low oxalate diet long-term. It's not our issue, so I can't attest to how it works, but it seems that some people are finding it helpful.

:

The idea behind both is to create a concentration gradient - by lowering the oxalates in the gut, the body moves them from tissue to gut for excretion. One way of lowering them in the gut is to not eat them. Another is to have oxalate degrading bacteria in your gut. There are some really specific strains that are good at that, and bifido-bacteria are supposed to be good as well. VSL#3 has the bifidus.

[WuWei]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing your insights.


Pat

[Panserbjorne]

it's amazing how it all comes back to gut health, isnt' it?

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by whoMe

There are some really specific strains that are good at that, and bifido-bacteria are supposed to be good as well. VSL#3 has the bifidus.

DID YOU SEE THE PRICE ON THOSE PROBIOTICS?!?! $2.90 A DOSE.

How long are you supposed to take them? They have a lot of probiotics per pkt. at least.


Pat

[Panserbjorne]

yikes. That reminds me of the custom probiotics that I used to get for ds2.

[Theloose]

Yeah, it's kind of crazy. I've heard you can make yogurt with it as a starter, and that helps stretch them, but the culture won't last indefinitely. There was also someone talking (I have no idea where) about how she worked in a lab and they tested their ability to colonize the gut with a single dose of some oxalo-whatever bacteria sludge. She said it was absolutely disgusting, but it worked.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by whoMe

and they tested their ability to colonize the gut with a single dose of some oxalo-whatever bacteria sludge. She said it was absolutely disgusting, but it worked.

Well, there is that...

Pat

[momofmine]

Wow, that's very interesting about the VSL #3. I had been wondering about trying that for us. I think the ped GI mtn.mama saw recommended that one for them. But it had some additives or sweeteners in it, I think.