Parenting With Love and Logic?

[ShadowMom]

I started reading "Parenting With Love and Logic" and, I have to say, I am not impressed, for a variety of reasons.

For some reason, the board software won't let me search this forum for the book title, so I thought I would start a thread on it.

I just wanted to see what other GD'ers thought of it. I haven't gotten very far into it, as I said - I've skipped around and read maybe 15 pages? But here are the problems I'm having :

1. Can't you take natural consequences a little too far? I don't intervene MUCH when my child is playing with other child, but I do intervene if he's being a bully (he's not even 2, so this happens frequently... LOL).
2. The general tone of the book seems rather harsh to me. At one point the author states that parents who don't establish (their version of) strong boundaries have brats.
3. I don't care for all of the religious references, seeing as how I am not religious and am not a Christian (comparing parenting to the way that god parents us is completely lost on me).

That's all I can think of right now...

Is this book worth reading?

TIA.

[goldrose]

You bet!!

I have been using love and logic techniques for over a year now (I have a 3 y.o. and 2 y.o - both girls). While I have to say that I generally have well-behaved children no matter what parenting method I'd choose, Love and Logic is by far the most awesome way of parenting. Harsh you mentioned? No way. Firm, but loving. I'll give you two examples from my personal experience -
(p.s. I have only read the book "love and logic magic for early childhood" and yes, it IS magic!)

1) One evening my cute little 3 year old was fooling around while I tried to get her into pajamas. I said what I always say when she does something not right - "Uh-oh, this is so sad" From her training with this phrase, since she knows that what comes next is "looks like a little bedroom time. you're welcome to come out when you are ready to act sweet. I love you." she has become accustomed to responding: "No! Ready! Ready!" (When I say, "ready for what?" she says "ready to act sweet!") Well, this time, when she said "no, ready ready!!" I said "that's so sad, I guess you'll be putting on pj's yourself tonight" And I stuck to my guns. She cried, begged, pleaded for me to help her. I held her tight, hugged her, told her I love her, and still told her that it's so sad and perhaps we could try again tomorrow. Well, she put on pj's by herself, all sad and crying, while I sympathised with her. From then on, whenver it is time to change (into pj's or getting dressed in the morning) I start with "Am I going to be helping you get dressed or are you going to be doing it yourself?".................................

2)My younger daughter - just turned two on Sept 11, so she's really little - is also accustomed to this "uh-oh this is so sad" and also says "no! ready! ready!" --she is so well trained in knowing that when I say "uh-oh" it indicates that she (or her sister) did something wrong. Well, one day we sat down in the kitchen to bake a cake together, and I opened up the closet and saw that we didnt have enough flour so I said "uh-oh!" and the little one automatically said "no! ready! ready!" I started laughing and reassured her that she had done nothing wrong!!

Parenting is a lot easier with these love and logic techniques, and my kids really do know their limits and boundaries.

I am not Christian either and think that perhaps they could have left out those parts, but I still think their parenting ideas are amazing.

[katallen]

I think that you can take good advice and leave bad advice from any parenting book. I have read several books both gentle and not and in all of them I found either something that I could use or else something that I rejected and planned a better way of handling the situation when it happened to me. If you feel that you are to easily taken in by what "authority" figures on a subject say then I would not read it, but if you are interested and think some of it will be useful and you are able to discard the rest than I would read it.

[chfriend]

I haven't read it, but the examples make me go "Yuck." OP: Try "Playful Parenting" by Lawrence Cohen. Then if your kid is messing around putting on pajamas it doesn't have to be sad, just fun and bonding time.

[goldrose]

chfriend, perhaps it could be fun time and bonding but a) I am happy to have fun time and bonding with my children when they are acting sweet, so yes, not cooperating is sad since they then lose out on fun time and bonding and b) when your children have to be on a schedule, and be out the door by 8:30 in the morning, is not the time for "fun time and bonding". Love and Logic ideas are one way of making life go smoother without the yelling and stresses. (Of course everybody yells at one time or another. It's part of life, but not all of life).

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by goldrose

Love and Logic ideas are one way of making life go smoother without the yelling and stresses.

She cried, begged, pleaded for me to help her.

I opened up the closet and saw that we didnt have enough flour so I said "uh-oh!" and the little one automatically said "no! ready! ready!" I started laughing and reassured her that she had done nothing wrong!!

I'm sorry, but it sounds like your kids might actually be pretty stressed out by this method.

Isn't this the book that proposes withdrawing help so children learn lessons the hard way? I think I've read pretty negative reviews about it here. Darn search engine is all wonky.

[mama ganoush]

Originally Posted by chfriend

I haven't read it, but the examples make me go "Yuck." OP: Try "Playful Parenting" by Lawrence Cohen. Then if your kid is messing around putting on pajamas it doesn't have to be sad, just fun and bonding time.

yeah that.

and am i on mothering? In the gentle discipline forum?

3 year olds don't jump into or out of their jammies like they are in the military. it is developmentally appropriate, and how their brain develops incidentally, for them to play. nothing sad, or not sweet about it. and as for the sweetness, are you 'sweet' every second of the day? is anyone? why on earth should 2 and 3 year olds be under pressure to be sweet all the time and on top of that, have mommy's attention withheld as punishment. there is nothing gd about the example given here. gd encompasses alot more than just not beating children.

[leomom]

I'm halfway through, and I really like it. Just subbing for now. BBL to catch up on previous posts and tell more about my opinion.

[ShadowMom]

I appreciate all of the posts. Just from the examples given, it really does not sound like my parenting style at all. I don't mean any offense, that's just what I'm picking up on from the examples. So, it doesn't sound like the book has much to offer me. I don't have a lot of time to read, so I want a lot of action for my money :LOL

[annab]

Wow. Given the examples From Gold Rose, I would not say that is consistent with GD. It seems to use manipulation, coercion and artificial consequences. I would not be comfortable using a method that encouraged me to stop bonding with my child when their actions were not met with my approval (not acting 'sweet').

Here is a search of other posts about this book:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...archid=1243219

With so many excellent books out there, I would probably not choose this one if I were looking for a good GD book.

[sagira]

I bought the book at a flea market. I really do not agree with any of the parenting advice for 0-6-year-olds I'd say. After that, I think it gets a lot better. Especially the teenage years I think they are right in many ways, but I'd still use my judgment and decide on a case-by-case basis.

I definitely do not agree (yuck!) with their comparing young children to (shudder) German Shepherds that need to be trained on command. And many other things like that. In my book at least, they don't condone light spanking of very young children either.. which is a no-no in my eyes (and I think everybody here).

I feel much more "at home" reading Positive Discipline for Preschoolers (except for the sleep part, I practice AP), The Discipline Book and surprisingly, a homeschooling book titled Home Education by Charlotte Mason.

I do own Playful Parenting but I have a hard time with anyone (let alone my child that I loved and nurtured since he was little) disrespecting me and calling me a butthead. I do like the advice on playing more with my children, though. I have a lot of fun playing and discovering things about ds that I wouldn't have if I didn't play with him. I also act a lot more playful about things.

Am I rambling? Perhaps, but let me just say this: above and beyond everything else, you want to keep your children close to you, not create a chasm between the two of you. Keep your relationship strong, nurture it like any other important relationship. This is perhaps, next to your marriage, your most important relationship.

Cheers!

[leomom]

Wow, I caught up on the posts and I just want to say that I am do not read those things into that book. Maybe I'm reading a different book or am not far into it.

In any case, I just want to say that I personally would not feel comfortable picking a battle of pajamas and implying that dd wasn't acting sweet because she was playing. I don't mean to judge anyone else's parenting, but since I had posted to say I was reading it and enjoying it, I didn't mean that i agreed with things like that. I hadn't read the previous posts yet, just wante to subscribe. I haven't even really noticed that type of stuff. Maybe I'm just too programed to slant everything toward the gentle side or something...

[YiddisheMama]

i've read the book, and use it successfully with my 5 year old, my 2 1/2 year old, and soon with my 11 month old.

i think people have been reading into and misunderstanding the posts by goldrose.

the idea of the book is to teach your children responsibility, respect, love etc.

to let your child have enough control that they are learning to make decisions, (a trait that is very important to have and not everyone can make decisions), yet the control your child has is within very firm but loving limits, not enabling them to do anything harmful or detrimental to themselves or to others, but educating them in a practical way.

for instance, if i told my five year old i wanted her to wear her red dress today, she'd argue she wanted her blue one. yet, if i told her she can look in her closet and choose something, she may choose something ridiculous, like a plaid shirt with a flower pair of pans or something unmatched like that.

if i gave my daughter a choice, within my limits, such as, "do you want to wear the red dress or the blue dress?" i am comfortable with whatever she decides, yet from her perspective, she is making the decision, she feels empowered, she is made to think (which one do i want?), she is learning how to choose.

at the same time, when things have to happen, choices are a great way to go about it.

i won't say to my daughter, "okay, we're leaving, get your jacket on." rather i'd give her a choice, "we're leaving, do you want to put your right hand into your jacket first or your left hand?"'

this is a very insignificant choice, and it really makes no difference how she gets her coat on, but she's busy thinking and deciding, it doesn't occur to her that she doesn't want to get her coat on etc.

it's kind of hard to explain in writing, but i'd highly recommend that you read the book.

choices are not the only things it discusses of course, it was just one aspect i wanted to touch upon.

oh, and one more thing. goldrose, this is directed to you, i think your quips are actually very cute, and i think that only one who has read and practices the love and logic techniques will be properly able to understand without completely taking what you wrote out of proportion.

and just for the record, my children are very very happy, emotionally healthy, loved children. they know and feel that we love them and care for them, and they know that sometimes they make a decision that affects them in a negative way.

feel free to pm me if you have specific questions. i'll be happy to discuss this with anyone!

[annab]

Yiddishemama--That makes more sense, but when someone says, "Oh no, that is so sad", she is saying one of two things. 1) That is sad because I am getting ready to make you sad by banishing you to your room for showing age-appropriate behavior or 2) That mommy is sad that you have to go to your room, which makes a child responsible for an adult's feelings.

I am not trying to come down on goldrose, but the examples that she gave were very chilling for me. To tell children that they are only worthy of your love, otherwise they are sent away, when the 'act sweet' puts conditions on our love for our kiddos. Saying, "she knows from her training" makes it sound like she went to boot camp. When kids have such a strong conditioned response to a phrase like "uh-oh", that freaks me out a little.

[Dar]

I don't like it either.

The choices it gives are "fake" choices - basically, you can do what I want you to do or something bad will happen. I remember one example about, "Do you want to walk to the car, or shall I carry you?" That's no choice. And the "right hand first or left hand" thing might work for an easily swayed kid, but never for most kids I know, who would be yelling, "I said no coat!"

I also really hated the author's fake sympathy. The parent decides something like, "We're leaving in 10 minutes; if you haven't finished your food I'm throwing it away." and then does so... and then when the kid is hungry, does this fake-empathy "Gee, I sure know how hard it is to be hungry, but wow, won't dinner taste good 4 hours from now?" routine. I mean, if a person really was acting in a caring, empathetic way towards another person who was hungry, that person would help the hungry person obtain some food. The words are pretty meaningless without any action behind them, and to me they seemed really dishonest. This was an actual example in the book, BTW...

There was another example in the book about the parent suddenly deciding that the kids could stay up as late as they wanted (after years of enforced bedtimes), giving them pretty much no guidance, and then forcing them to wake up early and go to school the next day. What a set-up! How can you expect kids to make wise decisions about their sleep needs when they haven't ever been able to make those choices for themselves before? And why were the parents not trying to help the kids make better decisions? I think this is neglectful parenting, at least this example was...

goldrose, when you say, "Uh-oh, so sad" and theaten bedroom time, are you really feeling sad? It didn't sound like it, since you talk about "training" her with this phrase. Do you consider this dishonest?

Dar

[mama ganoush]

what's wrong with a child putting on clothes that don't match?

[gaialice]

Originally Posted by goldrose

when your children have to be on a schedule, and be out the door by 8:30 in the morning, is not the time for "fun time and bonding".

My kids have to be on a schedule too. And it is hard because they are 3 and 5 yo. I really am sorry about that... for them and for me, I feel we are robbed of precious bonding and fun time b'se I have a full time job that I am not ready to give up... and so does dh... however, and precisely because of that perhaps, I do try to enjoy every single moment with the kids. I do not mean to criticize what you do Goldrose. But then, if you came to this board, it must be that you are curious about other ways of parenting and so why not just try .... Like try and find ways to make putting jammies on funny (I try putting trousers on their heads and pretend I can't figure why it does not work..) or ... if we are persistently late in the morning I brainstorm with the children to find better ways... yes, it does mean that my children do not obey automatically and that is hard when the family in on a schedule however it is just not their fault if this is so and ..... life is not divided into what is fun and what is a chore.... Life is beautiful. Every ounce of it. Really.

[gaialice]

Originally Posted by sagira

I do own Playful Parenting but I have a hard time with anyone (let alone my child that I loved and nurtured since he was little) disrespecting me and calling me a butthead.

Sagira, did you try the playful parenting "trick" for bad words? The author describes in the book that when his children called him bad names he pretended that the bad name was his secret name. But then he would tell them "But that is not my real secret name... you want to know my really super secret name. Shhh, don't tell anyone.... It is .. whispering.... <cicico>". Clearly, the kids would start calling him by his supersecret name and everything ended in laughter. Wow that worked like a charm with my kids!

[YiddisheMama]

mama ganoush, i think you completely missed my point. it really isn't a big deal if my daughter wears mismatched clothes.

however, at some point in every child's life, they become an adult. at what point to they need to learn to live like an adult? how can they learn to make proper choice if they were'nt properly guided? how can they know what's right and what's wrong if they were permitted to do "whatever was fun and made them happy"?????

the love and logic skills are not tough and rough and mean and hard on the children. they educate them in practial ways.

regarding the example given above about the child missing the meal...i did that with my 5 year old daughter. we had to leave to an appointment. i asked her if she needed 15 minutes for lunch or 20 minutes. she told me 20. after 20 minutes when she had barely eaten anything, i calmly took her plate away, and we got ready to go. in answer to your question, yes, i was sad. yes, it does hurt me that my child is hungry. and later when she told me she was hungry, i used the line in the book. i told her i know, and i get pretty hungry too when i decide to skip lunch. (remember, she made the decision, she knew she had adequete time to eat if she so desired. she was in charge here.
and you know what? she's never done it again. when i ask her how long she needs for lunch (i give her a choice of x or y amount of minutes), i use a timer so she can see how much time is left, and she always eats her meal, or whatever part of it she wants.. she knows i won't make her eat more than she's hungry for, but she also knows that food is centered around mealtimes and snacktimes.

she made an adult decision, and she has learned an adult lesson in a fairly simple, painless way.

letting your child do verything he or she wants, and making all of their decisions is not always the right and proper thing to do.

if your child wants to eat candy for breakfast, lunch, and dinner - do you allow that?

i'd calmly tell my child that the candy is not one of the choices for a meal (this hasn't happened, but theoretically).

if your child wants to scribble with permanent marker on the brand new white couch, how to you tell her not to in a way that she'll listen and cooperate happily ???

it works with love and logic.

[ShadowMom]

Originally Posted by mama ganoush

what's wrong with a child putting on clothes that don't match?

: If my toddler really wanted to wear something, I would let him wear it. Even if it looked funny.

Regarding the examples given here - the very little of the book that I read, you don't give your child meaningless choices - it was all about letting them actually choose. For instance, in the coat example, if your child wanted to actually go without a coat, you would let them... if they got really cold, then next time they would remember their coat on their own and would have learned an important lesson without a power struggle.

In fact, the book seemed to carry this a little far and encouraged a very adversarial relationship with your child in letting them learn these lessons, which is one of the things I was having an issue with. I don't want my DS to learn about natural consequences in a way that will get CPS called on me... KWIM?