Parenting With Love and Logic? - Page 9

[chfriend]

Jaidymama, none of the non-L & L -loving moms suggested that the parenting techniques of the L & L-loving moms would lead their children to eating nothing but junk, growing up to be graffitti artists and having completely trashed houses.

[jaidymama]

clarification...

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear... It is my observation that there are posts on both sides of this issue that got out of hand.

Don't be mistaken, I too think that it is good to have healthy debates. And I did read posts that contributed to that end. However, I did read comments that seemed more like potshots than constructive input.

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Gandhi

[mammastar2]

Wow, I hadn't checked out this thread in a few days - what a lot has gone on!

YiddisheMama, I was quite comfortable with your examples (the response to the colouring on the walls, and the vacuuming of the salt) - I know that by 4 kids are often really into problem-solving, and that's a great skill to facilitate in them. You didn't leave her all alone to figure out how to fix it "or else", and you offered some prompts and suggestions. I think that's fairly empowering.

When my stepdaughter was about 6, she wanted to use the changeroom all by herself when she went to a program. She did so, then left a brand-new item of clothing behind. It was stolen. She was in tears after, afraid I'd be mad because I had bought said item. I didn't get angry, but I helped her to problem-solve. We discussed how she had thought she was ready for the responsibility of using the changeroom herself, but that it hadn't worked out. She came up with suggestions about reminders to herself not to forget her things next time, and designed a special bag for her things, on the understanding that if she didn't forget anything for a certain period of time and felt ready for the responsibility, she could then use the changeroom on her own again. Her natural consequence was needing to re-think how to take care of her things, and only take on responsibility she was ready for. The natural consequence for her dad and I was that we bought her the item of clothing again, because really it was not that smart of us to let her use the changeroom on her own without reminding her of a safe way to deal with her stuff. That part was 'our bad.' (Kind of like buying a cream-coloured leather sofa if you have a 2 year old - duh!)

The 'oh so sad' I have major issues with. I want my children to learn to recognize, identify, and respond appropriately to a range of genuine emotions. If everything gets subsumed into being "sad", with only one expected response, I would be concerned about them growing up misidentifying their own and others' emotions. This can lead to being manipulated or manipulating, or simply not good at 'reading' situations.

My 4 year old is an ace at reading and expressing emotions, largely because we try to express ourselves genuinely, and with a rich vocabulary. She blew me away the other day when I was actually trying to be patient as she was eating slowly, but I was getting kind of bored and knew the food was getting cold - she said "mommy, please don't be frustrated because I'm eating slow!" I was really impressed that, despite my best efforts, she could correctly identify my feelings. We cleared the air, and things were better.

[YiddisheMama]

b'h

one more example - this one is real "natural consequences."

this happened about a month and a half ago. my kids were playing in the splash pool in the backyard, in their clothing, and eventually decided to take off their shoes and whatever else............

when they came inside later, my 5 year old left her tights outside. i decided not to remind her about it, not to nag...and just see when she'd remember. it never occurred to me that what happened next would happen.

we were at the dinner table, and my 5 year old was facing the window to the backyard. in middle of eating, she looked outside and let out a shriek. it took me and dh a few moments to figure out what had happened.

a squirrel had come and was grasping her tights.

her: waaa!! the squirrrel has my tights!! waaa!! i want my tights!

i picked her up, she just needed mommy to hold her while she was going through this traumatic experience.

me: wow, i'll bet that makes you pretty upset. what do you want to do about that?

her: waaa!! as soon as he puts them down, i'm quickly going to run outside and quickly get my tights and quickly run back inside!

me: oh.

then we watched as the sqirrel put the tights in his mouth and ran off. now between me and you, she's got plenty of tights, and i really didn't care if these were no longer in existance, especially because they probably had holes in them now from the squirrel. but my daughter did mind.

her: mommy, look! the squirrel took my tights with him! he's eating them! mommy!!!

me: hmm, i wonder if it tastes good. what do you think?

her: no! tights are not food, it doesn't taste good. i wish the squirrel would bring my tights back.

me: yeah, it's sad and upsetting to be missing stuff.

her: yeah, i'm never ever ever gonna leave my tights outside again!

me: oh, that sounds like a way to make sure squirrels won't get them again.

her: yeah! i don't want squirrels to eat my tights again.

that was it, coversation over. she came to her own conclusion, learned the lesson all by herself about not leaving her stuff outside, without any badgering, nagging, reminding, or "see what happends when you don't put your stuff away."

we avoided all of that.

and...she's never left anything outside since then.

[HelloKitty]

Much better example YM. See now that's a story I can totally get behind and agree with.

Plus I'm still picturing a squirrel with a pair of tights in his mouth making a get away. :LOL

[mama ganoush]

i'm wondering about the natural consequences to the poor squirrel's tummy.

[HelloKitty]

Originally Posted by mama ganoush

i'm wondering about the natural consequences to the poor squirrel's tummy.

How true. Poor squirrel is learning a lesson he or she won't soon forget.

[Victorian]

mama squirell: what's wrong baby?

baby: my tummy hurts

mama: why does it hurt

baby: I ate that girls tights

mama: AGAIN?

baby: I know!

mama: it makes me sad that you have a tummy ache

baby: me too! I'm never going to eat tights again (inside head: unless I cut them up into small pieces and eat them over a few days)

mama: lesson learned little s. NOW GET OUT THERE AND COLLECT MORE NUTS, DO YOU THINK THAT HOLE IN THE TREE WILL FILL ITSELF?

[YiddisheMama]

b'h

i thought it was pretty funny. of course i won't tell my daughter that.

and when she sees a random squirrel (anywhere, not just here at home) she often says, "maybe that's the squirel that ate my tights."

[irinam]

Originally Posted by Victorian

mama squirell: what's wrong baby?

baby: my tummy hurts

mama: why does it hurt

baby: I ate that girls tights

mama: AGAIN?

baby: I know!

mama: it makes me sad that you have a tummy ache

baby: me too! I'm never going to eat tights again (inside head: unless I cut them up into small pieces and eat them over a few days)

mama: lesson learned little s. NOW GET OUT THERE AND COLLECT MORE NUTS, DO YOU THINK THAT HOLE IN THE TREE WILL FILL ITSELF?

:LOL :LOL :LOL

[ShadowMom]

Originally Posted by YiddisheMama

and when she sees a random squirrel (anywhere, not just here at home) she often says, "maybe that's the squirel that make my tights."

:LOL :LOL :LOL

[flyingspaghettimama]

I am betting that was Squirrel Nutkin from Beatrix Potter. He's just the sort to do something like that.

BTW, I have a squirrel phobia and they often show up in my nightmares. I hope your daughter doesn't suffer the same! I would never put it past a tight-eating squirrel to do all sorts of damage. I KNEW they were like that (everyone thinks they're so cute and fluffy, but noooo...)

[Raynbow]

I like it, however, like all parenting "methods", you need to alter it to fit your personality and family.

I'm not religious either... so I just ignore that part...

[HelloKitty]

Victorian you crack me up. :

[owensmom]

Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama

I am betting that was Squirrel Nutkin from Beatrix Potter. He's just the sort to do something like that.

BTW, I have a squirrel phobia and they often show up in my nightmares. I hope your daughter doesn't suffer the same! I would never put it past a tight-eating squirrel to do all sorts of damage. I KNEW they were like that (everyone thinks they're so cute and fluffy, but noooo...)

You are like Anya on Buffy - she was terrified of bunnys for the same reason. When they told her to dress as something scary for halloween, she showed up in a bunny costume.

Wow, can I help this stray a little more off topic?

[mama ganoush]

Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes,
They've got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses.
And what's with all the carrots-?
What do they need such good eyesight for anywa - y?
Bunnies, bunnies it must be bunnies!

[Minky]

Originally Posted by poxybat

it feels like alot of people feel the need to punish thier children to appease other people, but it doesnt matter what those other people think.
quite frankly i rarely ever give a thought to anyone who has witnessed cassandra having a tantrum. i dont care what they think of my parenting, it can only cause harm if they matter to you more or as much as your obviously upset child. i think it would be helpful to just not care what people think about your parenting, easier said than done i know. if people think your child is rotten who care what they think? you know its not true. you have no reason to be humiliated. rethink that whole stance becase you dont have to say something to your child to say it ykwim?
its easy to feel judged but it really does no good. my mantra seems to be "if you know youre doing the absolute best for your child then you have no reason to feel bad" but there is also so much room to change and make things better because there is always growth in this process. if enough people on this board think somethings bad i usually look into it and find i agree(not always but usually) maybe the naughty step isnt a good idea? maybe time out isnt either? its good to always keep your mind open to the possibility.

OK take the other people out of the equasion.
I still need to be able to do things with DD with me and not have her throw herself on the ground screaming and refuse to walk. I understand she's not perfect. I understand she slips up. But time out has decreased this behavior. I'm a stay at home mom. My DH works. I have to take DD virtually everywhere with me and yes there are bad consequences to me--like not being approved for the home loan, the pediatrician thinking I'm an airbrain and questioning every little thing I do with DD!

I also think if tantrum's aren't elimidated DD will have consequences later like poor social relationships with peers who understand that their inappropriate.

But I am open as you said.
What is wrong with giving a time out or naughty step session for a tantrum? And please don't think I'm trying to be rude, this is a genuine question.

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by Minky

What is wrong with giving a time out or naughty step session for a tantrum? And please don't think I'm trying to be rude, this is a genuine question.

OK, here's one thing that I think happens when you punish your child for having a tantrum. And this is purely from a practical point of view, like thinking of how you can get her to stop throwing fits while you're trying to get something done. When your dd has a fit, she is out of control, right? So imagine it from her point of view. You're at an office, she's a little bit tired, a little bit hungry, and a little bit bored. She picks up on your anxiety, you're hoping she's going to behave, and you're nervous about talking to the city planner (just to use an example from my own life). So then, for whatever reason, something sets her off. Maybe she was trying to show you something, or wanted your attention, or maybe she's just had it. She starts to feel herself losing control, which is easy for a two year old to do, and what does she think?

"Hmm, I don't want to sit on the naughty step when I get home, I think I'll just take a deep breath and count to ten."

or maybe,

"I'm feeling so stressed out, I know I'm going to start crying, and then I'm going to be in trouble. If I start crying, the person I look to for support is going to be mad at me and probably scold me. That just makes me feel worse, now I can't stop crying and now my mother's disapproving of me!!!"

Maybe your dc has more control, and maybe they can't exactly verbalize it, but I think that's why punishing for tantrums don't help. I think there's a lot of other reasons not to punish, too, but that's just one example.

I take my kids everywhere I go, too. I've had to leave places, and I've had some embarrassing moments, but I don't think it's the end of the world if the salesperson at the countertop store thinks my kids are out of control and that I'm crazy. How can they judge from the fifteen minutes they see them? And who cares anyway?

[TortelliniMama]

Originally Posted by Minky

What is wrong with giving a time out or naughty step session for a tantrum? And please don't think I'm trying to be rude, this is a genuine question.

To me, it's like giving a time out for falling down when learning to walk, not being able to remember the word for something, or dropping food off a fork while eating. Kids aren't born with adult-level abilities, and telling them that they shouldn't perform behaviors that are on their current developmental level doesn't magically make them able to perform at higher levels. Does my ds have tantrums? You bet. Does he enjoy having them? No, I don't believe he does. Would he choose to use another method of communication if he were skilled enough in it? Yep. Tantrums are a developmental step. I view them as an opportunity for teaching alternatives through modeling, support, and suggestions, not as something that I need to just wipe out.

That said, I have no problem with parent time-outs. Occasionally I'm just at the end of my rope, and I can feel my subconscious start to turn on the tapes that ran throughout my childhood. Rather than expose ds to nastiness from me, I'll tell him that Mama will be back in a minute, and I'll go and spend a minute or two in the bathroom or wherever, just to give myself a chance to regroup. He doesn't like when I do this, but of course, he doesn't know what I'm trying to avoid having happen.

[YiddisheMama]

b'h

i think there is nothing wrong with tantrums, and my kids are welcome to throw tantrums whenever they want...but i don't have to hear it. my kids know that they can throw tantrums, scream, yell etc anytime they want, as long as it's in their bedroom or in the patio with the door closed.

whenever they're done with their screaming, i'm all ready to see them/hear them/hold them/hug them etc...

it's different of course if they hurt themselves and are crying. then i hold them and they cry on my shoulder etc...