Parenting With Love and Logic? - Page 2

[Wugmama]

I also haven't read the book. But from the little the OP said about it, and more from the examples given by the second poster, which are supposed to be consistent with the book, I would say it sounds like a terrible book.

Not trying to be snarky to the second poster, but honestly her whole examples sound totally sad to me.

I've heard great things about the Playful Parenting book. It is on my list of things to read...

Take care,
Tracy

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by goldrose

"Uh-oh, this is so sad" From her training with this phrase, since she knows that what comes next is "looks like a little bedroom time. you're welcome to come out when you are ready to act sweet. I love you."

Something about this really sits badly with me. It seems to me that the messages given with these statements are kind of crazy-making, in a way... combining a punishment with the phrase "I love you" seems like a recipe for making the words "I love you" very charged in a conflicted way. I think, if I was raised this way, as an adult, everytime someone said, "I love you" to me, I would, in some primal way, wait for the other shoe to drop, feel uneasy, expect something unpleasant to come next.

I guess saying "I love you" when administering a time out or something unpleasant is meant to reassure the child that even though you have to make them do this unpleasant thing, you still love them. But I think it will backfire and make love itself seem unpleasant. I think its better to reassure the child that you love them after the timeout, during the time you are verbally processing the event, and not while you are administering the punishment.

Actually, I'm opposed to punishments, and view being sent to their room as a punishment because of the way they obviously don't like it and don't want it. But this is just my own parenting style and I don't mean to criticize anyone who uses time outs. I just didn't want it to seem like I was supporting time out.

[owensmom]

Originally Posted by YiddisheMama

mama ganoush, i think you completely missed my point. it really isn't a big deal if my daughter wears mismatched clothes.

however, at some point in every child's life, they become an adult. at what point to they need to learn to live like an adult? how can they learn to make proper choice if they were'nt properly guided? how can they know what's right and what's wrong if they were permitted to do "whatever was fun and made them happy"?????

the love and logic skills are not tough and rough and mean and hard on the children. they educate them in practial ways.

regarding the example given above about the child missing the meal...i did that with my 5 year old daughter. we had to leave to an appointment. i asked her if she needed 15 minutes for lunch or 20 minutes. she told me 20. after 20 minutes when she had barely eaten anything, i calmly took her plate away, and we got ready to go. in answer to your question, yes, i was sad. yes, it does hurt me that my child is hungry. and later when she told me she was hungry, i used the line in the book. i told her i know, and i get pretty hungry too when i decide to skip lunch. (remember, she made the decision, she knew she had adequete time to eat if she so desired. she was in charge here.
and you know what? she's never done it again. when i ask her how long she needs for lunch (i give her a choice of x or y amount of minutes), i use a timer so she can see how much time is left, and she always eats her meal, or whatever part of it she wants.. she knows i won't make her eat more than she's hungry for, but she also knows that food is centered around mealtimes and snacktimes.

she made an adult decision, and she has learned an adult lesson in a fairly simple, painless way.

letting your child do verything he or she wants, and making all of their decisions is not always the right and proper thing to do.
.

I was listening to some tunes I hadn't heard in a while last night, and I was struck again by this line in a Tragically Hip song: "No dress rehearsal, this is our life". It brought me around then to the central theme of the movie Strictly Ballroom - a life lived in fear is a life half lived.

I thought, this is what I want my kid to grow up to understand. I don't want him to feel he needs to go through life doing what is always expected... high school, college, career, house, wife, whatever. My dh and I bought into all the consumerist needs in our 20's, now we are wishing we didn't have so much stuff, so much debt, so we could live more freely and happily... dh said now he knows why people have mid life crises! Anyway, if ds wants to wear mismatched clothes for the rest of his life and he is happy doing so, then more power to him. I'm not letting him be silly and have fun with everything to suddenly drop the adult bomb on him at age 7. If he won't wear a coat, I'll bring one. If he wants to wear it later, we have it. I'm going to guess that there will be a time when he is a little older that he will figure it all out. I'm not going to be following him around the halls of his school with a jacket in case he gets cold.

It is our responsibility to help our children grow. I can see how the "you didn't eat your lunch and now you're hungry and now you know" thing would work. I'm also always amazed when I learn about kids developmental abilities to find they don't always think the way we do, nor express themselves so we know what is going on. If he doesn't eat what I give him, even though he says he will, maybe he isn't hungry at the time. If he is then hungry an hour later, I'm not going to make him wait until dinner, I'll give him something I brought. I try and think about how I want to be treated, YK? If I didn't eat my lunch, and then was out and about an hour later and got hungry, I'd probably get myself a snack, not chide myself for not eating when I had the chance and suffering until dinner.

[mama ganoush]

the whole food example really bothers me. and i'm not a tcs person, or a parent that doesn't believe in boundaries or discipline-not by a long shot. bUT i am a big believer in knowing what is age appropriate for my child, and not expecting more or less from her. i know for instance, that young children's bodies are designed to graze frequently throughout the day, not just at rigidly set mealtimes. There are days that my child is just eating pretty much all day, and days when she doesn't seem to eat nearly as much. and that is exactly what she is supposed to do. Setting strict times and rules about a child's eating sets them up for life long eating issues, and doesn't respect their physical and emotional needs.

[owensmom]

ahhh, mama g, you say things so much more eloquently than I... :LOL

[mammastar2]

I don't think I'd care for the book.

I do actually use choices to some extent, e.g. bringing out a couple of different things to wear and letting dd pick, etc. I could also see letting her try not wearing a coat if she was very insistent.

However, generally she responds very well (she's 4) to me

(i) taking the time to look her in the eye and explain what needs doing and why ("I understand you don't want to wear a coat today, but today is a cold, windy day, and a coat will keep you cozy and warm),

(ii) asking open questions about what she wants to do about it (e.g. "so if you don't want to wear the coat I brought you, what can you pick that will keep you warm?" - this works better now than a year ago)

and (iii) being silly sometime ("oh no, the big fluffy winter coat is trying to get away! it doesn't want you to put it on! catch it! catch it!").

Sometimes this means things get a bit lengthy, but often not - she's used to being tuned in to what goes on around her and I think it helps her be more on the ball than if I were just using timers and cue phrases to warn her that something she dislikes is going to happen if she doesn't hop to it.

I'm really uncomfortable with setting her up to respond well to emotional manipulation - I'm doing this because I love you, do what I say if you want me to show affection, etc. I also don't feel comfortable with setting a timer around eating. To me, a timer would create a lot of anxiety and control issues around food. Granted my daughter is a slow eater, and sometimes needs reminders if we have somewhere to be, or if she's getting carried away telling a story at dinner, but I don't see the need to add a stressor to the table that way.

I realize this is a touchy subject, and previous posters obviously just selected a few examples without the full context - please don't be offended, this is just my take.

[goldrose]

Howdy all

Perhaps everyone is waiting to hear what 'goldrose the terrible mama' has to say. hehe. It appears that the posters of GD have a hard time with anything that is not natural.
("I wont shave my arms and legs, it's not natural" - well, perhaps it isnt, but it's definitely nicer-looking).
Anyway, it's definitely true that I'm not sweet all the time. Nor do I expect ANYONE (for sure little kids!) to be sweet all the time. Yet, when I'm not feeling sweet, I don't go around bashing people and hurting them. I WILL, however, take some time for myself in my room or on the couch, maybe with a book or something, and tell my children that I'm not feeling too good right now and need some peace time. A child who does not feel like being sweet is welcome to feel that way, but ACTING unsweet is another story. I don't, G-d forbid, love them or accept them less even for a second at such a time. They are welcome to feel and act unsweet away from other people who may be affected.
No, this world is not a free-for-all. Children who are brought up with loving limits are better-adjusted and feel safer. If you choose not to read Love and Logic, be my guest. It's your loss.
That said, I wish you all luck with your playful parenting. Sometimes I have time for play, sometimes I don't. Yes children like to play, and they can, and I'm happy to play with them when I am up to it. At other times, they're welcome to play with themselves, their siblings, or friends.
P.s. I"m not a mainstream mother, I don't give my children shots and I don't believe in spanking. Nor do I believe in punishing. Natural consequenses are a very effective way for children to learn.
Good luck to you all.

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by owensmom

If I didn't eat my lunch, and then was out and about an hour later and got hungry, I'd probably get myself a snack, not chide myself for not eating when I had the chance and suffering until dinner.

I thought this was pretty eloquent.

[annab]

Originally Posted by goldrose

Natural consequenses are a very effective way for children to learn.

I would like to know what is natural about sending your child to her room.

[goldrose]

And I'd like to know what kind of person would tell their child that their SECRET NAME IS A DIRTY WORD??!

[mama ganoush]

Originally Posted by goldrose

("I wont shave my arms and legs, it's not natural" - well, perhaps it isnt, but it's definitely nicer-looking).

that's a pretty subjective opinion, like much of the rest of your post. and probably isn't a great way to meet friends in this community you've newly joined, much like the rest of your post.

[ShadowMom]

Originally Posted by goldrose

Nor do I believe in punishing.

Your example used a punishment, so I'm confused by your statement that you don't believe in punishing? Sending your daughter to her room alone when she obviously doesn't want to be there... not a punishment?

[mammastar2]

Do let's calm down. I think that most posters have been quite respectful in terms of giving their feedback to the original poster's question about the book, coupled with examples from people actually using it. I don't think sarcasm is necessary.

I agree with natural consequences. But I don't know how a child could perceive natural consequences on their own if a parent uses this type of method - all consequences seem to flow from the power relationship, at least in the examples above. I also don't want my children to grow up into relationships where there's a bad power dynamic going on, they get the short end of the stick, and they misidentify that as a 'natural consequence' that they are deserving of, if you see what I mean? To me, natural consequences should promote problem-solving abilities (what are the different ways to fix this together?), and that's hard if they're reduced to a 'do this or else.'

[annab]

Originally Posted by goldrose

And I'd like to know what kind of person would tell their child that their SECRET NAME IS A DIRTY WORD??!

??? Did I miss something?

[gaialice]

Originally Posted by goldrose

And I'd like to know what kind of person would tell their child that their SECRET NAME IS A DIRTY WORD??!

Of course, telling my child that my secret name is a dirty word is a joke. My 4 yo knows I am joking when I say that. It makes her laugh. Through laughter we reconnect. And when we are connected close she never calls me names. You will not believe how effective this is if you never try. I was at a friend's house with the kids and my guest's 4 yo son said his father was stupid. His dad sent him to time out. When he came out, he said it again. He got spanked. He went on. It was soooo sad. I do not really know what would have happened next because I picked a book and started reading loud and all the kids sat down to listen. Anyway, for anyone interested, this game of dirty words is at page 64 of Playful Parenting.

Do I have to add that a "kind of person" is my secret name?
: :

[Dar]

Originally Posted by goldrose

And I'd like to know what kind of person would tell their child that their SECRET NAME IS A DIRTY WORD??!

I thought it was kind of a funny game. Then again, I remember sitting in a car full of 4-7 year olds and listening to them sing for 40 minutes about farts, pee, poop, and "crappy", and feeling so thankful that they were all happily engaged and getting along so the other mom and I could talk. Kids are now 10-13 and all are well past the dirty words stage, with no harm done.

Sometimes I don't feel like eating at a mealtime - maybe I'm nervous or crampy and my stomach doesn't feel like food, or I'm distracted by conversation or a project that I'm thinking about. I try to trust my belly and eat when I'm hungry, because I think it helps me to keep a weight that's right for my body, and it helps me to make eating about hunger, not about the clock. Still, sometimes I misjudge, and I'm in the middle of something else and I'm suddenly hungry. I certainly don't sit there thinking, "Gee, so sad, I guess I'll have to wait 3 hours until dinner time." No, I grab a granola bar or something similar from my bag (I try to keep a stash) or hit the snack machine or if I'm out driving, I make a quick stop someone and get a bite to eat. Isn't this what normal, rational adults would do?

Just ecause your daughter made the decision to skip lunch doesn't mean she's made the decision to eat nothing until dinnertime. *You* are making that decision. That's a "fake" natural consequence, trying to make it seem like what's happening is a result of the child's actions when really it's being inflicted by the parent. It's the parent who is denying the child any food until dinnertime; that's not the child's choice.

mammastar2, I really liked your 3 approaches to the coat issue - very respectful and problem-solving oriented!

And again, I've read "Love and Logic", while really bored one evening waiting for Rain to be done with a babysitting job (and fwiw, the kids she was sitting for are definitely difficult, so I'm not thinking Love and Logic did much good for their family).

Dar

[gaialice]

Originally Posted by Dar

Kids are now 10-13 and all are well past the dirty words stage, with no harm done.

Thanks for saying this Dar. I do like to hear that it is a phase and it shall pass. I hope it passes as for you, with no harm done, like no insulting the neighbours and calling them poopyhead. In fact, strange as it may seem, my game seems to have reduced to namecalling to just a game, no longer charged of bad meanings. And reduced the frequency of it, also.

[gaialice]

Originally Posted by goldrose

Sometimes I have time for play, sometimes I don't. Yes children like to play, and they can, and I'm happy to play with them when I am up to it. At other times, they're welcome to play with themselves, their siblings, or friends.

I just wanted to add that I do not spend my entire day playing with dc either. (I wish.....). Of course, my children do play by themselves, with friends and with siblings. Playful parenting is not about giving up my adult role. It is about interacting with my children in a language (play) that they understand. It means using play to overcome obstacles and to reconnect with them. It really is a great book and full of resources, and well worth a read.

[velochic]

Originally Posted by goldrose

From her training with this phrase,

...

she is so well trained

I'm sorry, but these statements just give me chills!!!

Any book that has me TRAINING my child like a dog is not one that will ever find it's way to my bookshelf.

[goldrose]

for the one who said "...it works like a charm..." - just because something works, doesn't mean it is the right way to go, as you all will agree that smacking will no doubt shut the child up since he doesnt want to be hit again - it works, yes. Is it right? noway!
And I wonder what the child who thinks dirty words are secret names will do when he calls a classmate a dirty word and gets punched in the face. "but it was supposed to be a joke, a game, and silly!?!!"
And a lot more things I don't like about this specific way of dealing with dirty words.

p.s. as far as "a great way to make friends" Why? Can't you be friends with someone who has different parenting ideas than you? We don't have to agree! Also, I am not new to this community, I've been a member for a few years already.