Parenting With Love and Logic? - Page 3

[annab]

We don't promote the idea that any words are 'dirty'. It seems much simpler to teach that there are words that may be used in different places and that some are going to get a negative reaction. I think that using them playfully takes all the fun out of them. When you start calling them 'dirty' words or making a big deal out of 'butthead', then they become sooooo enticing.

My child would certainly know the difference between words we use in play and calling someone that at school.

[YiddisheMama]

b'h

while i may not agree with everything in the love and logic books, (although i do agree with most), the general gist of the book is teaching children responsibility. love with firm limits.

all i can say is if you haven't read the book, it's your loss, not mine. i've read it, studied it, i practice it, and i have three very happy, well-adjusted, loved, loving, fun, playful, friendly, responsible children.

we have fun together, we play games together, we do chores together, and some things are their responsibility. like making sure the dirty clothing is in the basket. my kids know that i'm happy to wash all the laundry that is inside the basket. it's their loss if a favorite shirt is still dirty because they left it on the floor. and if they want it washed, it'll be in the basket.

my children don't feel that i don't love them because i didnt wash the shirt. the know that they are the ones who made that decision.

and if my daughter who is still freshly potty trained, needs to go, but doesn't want to for whatever reason (even with my taking her), i'll do it in a fun way by asking, "do you want to skip to the bathroom or crawl to the bathroom?" instantly, her mind is occupied with thinking...and the fact that she didn't want to go isn't an issue anymore, because not going was not one of the choices i gave her.

so all you pros out there who run and do everything for your kids in the name of love, love, and love...how would you react if your 3 year old got hold of a black permanent marker and decorated the brand new ivory colored couch in the den?

just curious.

(oh, and i definitely shave my legs and my underarms)

[owensmom]

What is with all the couch grafitti examples? They are a totally different situation then the everyday 'I don't want to get a coat/go pee/put on my pajamas".

and the shaving legs "au natural" sidebar is really annoying and insulting.

[AntoninBeGonin]

Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie

Something about this really sits badly with me. It seems to me that the messages given with these statements are kind of crazy-making, in a way... combining a punishment with the phrase "I love you" seems like a recipe for making the words "I love you" very charged in a conflicted way. I think, if I was raised this way, as an adult, everytime someone said, "I love you" to me, I would, in some primal way, wait for the other shoe to drop, feel uneasy, expect something unpleasant to come next.

I guess saying "I love you" when administering a time out or something unpleasant is meant to reassure the child that even though you have to make them do this unpleasant thing, you still love them. But I think it will backfire and make love itself seem unpleasant. I think its better to reassure the child that you love them after the timeout, during the time you are verbally processing the event, and not while you are administering the punishment.

I completely agree with what your saying about "I love you" being confused with the punishments. Looking back on my childhood I'm grateful that the few times my parents spanked they never bothered to do that syrupy-sweet, forced happy hug afterwards. You know, the one mentioned in every pro-spanking article ever written. The last thing I would have ever wanted was to be hugged and kissed by someone who had just made me feel so terrible. (Even though my parents spanked so lightly they were barely noticeable. It was more the mental and emotional pain of being hit by a loved one, not the physical.)

~Nay

[AntoninBeGonin]

Originally Posted by owensmom

If I didn't eat my lunch, and then was out and about an hour later and got hungry, I'd probably get myself a snack, not chide myself for not eating when I had the chance and suffering until dinner.

:

~Nay

[AntoninBeGonin]

Originally Posted by goldrose

Howdy all

It appears that the posters of GD have a hard time with anything that is not natural.
("I wont shave my arms and legs, it's not natural" - well, perhaps it isnt, but it's definitely nicer-looking).
.

*ahem** I not only shave my pits and legs, heck I even shave the old bikini zone.

~Nay

[AntoninBeGonin]

Originally Posted by goldrose

And I'd like to know what kind of person would tell their child that their SECRET NAME IS A DIRTY WORD??!

If you read the entire book, it makes a lot more sense. I read the book several months ago and really enjoyed it. From what I remember Cohen (at that point in the book) was dealing with older children who were very rude, ill-mannered, and disruptive. They also liked saying obscenities. So he used the game "don't say my secret name--it's dirty!" to make a game out of saying "bad words." Okay, my explanation is terrible. But it's a great book--really!

~Nay

[gaialice]

Originally Posted by goldrose

p.s. as far as "a great way to make friends" Why? Can't you be friends with someone who has different parenting ideas than you? We don't have to agree!

Of course, but then, you need to state your opinion respectfully.
Calling someone "a kind of person" in my opinion, is not.

Originally Posted by goldrose

for the one who said "...it works like a charm..." - just because something works, doesn't mean it is the right way to go, as you all will agree that smacking will no doubt shut the child up since he doesnt want to be hit again - it works, yes. Is it right? noway!

That it exactly the problem I have with your "bedroom time" approach. It works. Perhaps. Is it right? When answering to this question, you need to refer to a value system. My value system is "will this damage/enhance my relationship with my kids"? Putting them in time-out, punishing them, and of course hitting them surely damages the relation. So, in my view, they are not "right". I would like to know why, i.e. referring to which value system, you judge this particular playful parenting technique wrong

Originally Posted by goldrose

And I wonder what the child who thinks dirty words are secret names will do when he calls a classmate a dirty word and gets punched in the face. "but it was supposed to be a joke, a game, and silly!?!!"

As another poster clarified, we do also talk about different kind of words that can be used in different contexts. We talk about that when everyone is calm and noone is calling anyone a bad name. So my kids know very well that they should not use butthead to call a friend. Nevertheless, as all kids do, they will occasionally do so. And then, that's when I tried this game. And the real bonus from this game was that it made my kids see how words can be used to play or to hurt people.

Originally Posted by goldrose

And a lot more things I don't like about this specific way of dealing with dirty words.

I just made my suggestion.... you are free to like it or not. But then, I prefer an opinionated exchange of opinions.

Originally Posted by YiddisheMama

it's their loss if a favorite shirt is still dirty because they left it on the floor. and if they want it washed, it'll be in the basket.
my children don't feel that i don't love them because i didnt wash the shirt. the know that they are the ones who made that decision.

What if your husband had a special meeting at work and forgot to put his shirt in the basket? Wiould you say "he made his decision" to go to work with a totally non-matching shirt? I am not suggesting that we should do everything for our kids. We should encourage them to be autonomous and help around the house. But punishing them for forgetting to do a chore, that is different.

[YiddisheMama]

Originally Posted by gaialice

What if your husband had a special meeting at work and forgot to put his shirt in the basket? Wiould you say "he made his decision" to go to work with a totally non-matching shirt? I am not suggesting that we should do everything for our kids. We should encourage them to be autonomous and help around the house. But punishing them for forgetting to do a chore, that is different.

that's where you and i differ. i don't see this as a punishment, it's a natural consequence. i don't "punish" my kids either. and it's never happened with my husband, and if it did, he'd wear a different shirt, no sweat.

and yes, i help them clean their room, they're still young.

but here, let me give you an example of natural consqequences.

my then 4 year old daughter autographed the walls in the bathroom. when i saw it, i did not get upset or yell or punish. i calmly said, "oh this is so sad. paper is for coloring on. what are you going to do about the walls?"

so she thought and said, "well, i can wash it off."

so i helped her get a towel and some detergent and she tried scrubbing. it did not come off (which i knew it wouldn't, but i figured i'd let her learn it by herself without me telling her.)

she came to me and said, "mommy, it's not washing off."

i asked, "oh, so what can you do about the walls?" (again, i asked this very calmly.

her: "maybe we can paint it."

me: "hmm, that could work. paint costs money, do you have enough money to buy some paint.?"

her (jumping up, all excited by the idea): "let me count"

a few minutes later...she realized she didn't have enough money.

me: "sometimes when people need money, they can do jobs to earn it. i can pay you to do some jobs you wouldn't normally be doing."

i then gave her a choice of vacuuming the living room or washing the bathroom floor. she choose the bathroom. she had a ball doing it, until the last five minutes when she started saying it was getting hard.

me: "I know, washing floors is hard work. i bet you'll be happy when you're done."

her: "can i stop now?"

me: "you can stop when you want, i only pay for completed jobs."

she finished it. collected her money. and she was very very very proid of herself.

she did a few more jobs, earned more money.

lots of lessons learned.

more lessons, going to home depot with me to buy the paint. counting money at the cash register, paying the cashier...all by herself. a very very proud and smarter 4 year old left the store.

as far as the actual painting, we discussed that she'd paint the spot where she drew and i'd do the rest of the walls so it would match.

no hurt, no pain, no anger, no threats, no spanks, just lots of fun lessons in a real life, practical way.

[mama ganoush]

you know what is really silly and irksome here? the tired notion that either you are parenting by every word of this particular book, whose whole premise perpetuates a parent vs. child dynamic as opposed to a parent and child dynamic, or you let your children run wild without any limits.

the truth is, i don't parent by any particular book. the only "expert" on my particular child is her parents. why do some many mamas here trust themselves so little and trust some man who has never even met their child and spends half the year on the lecture circuit? Reclaim your power, listen to your instincts, and parent in the way that most respects and honors your particular child.

[ShadowMom]

Originally Posted by YiddisheMama

so all you pros out there who run and do everything for your kids in the name of love, love, and love...

See, I was actually interested in hearing more about your approach until you got insulting and condescending... then you lost me. Oh well.

[goldrose]

KristiMetz, now that was a love and logic tactic - YiddisheMama chose to say something a certain way, that resulted in your natural reaction, and now it's "oh well" so sad, you lost your interest.

[Dar]

Originally Posted by YiddisheMama

but here, let me give you an example of natural consqequences.

These are in no way natural conseqeunces. The natural consequence of coloring on the walls is having decorated walls. "Love and Logic" is not about natural consequences, but about the author's strange version of "logical" ones.

I'm really not into turning life into "lessons". Every kid I've ever known has drawn on the walls or the furniture or something, at some point. It's normal. That's a huge fuss to make over something that is normal, and passes. A wise parent buys washable markers and pencils, and keeps anything permanent well out of reach. A wise parent also doesn't buy a brand new cream-colored sofa when she has a 3 year old... aside from being colored-on, there's the possibility of potty accidents, juice spills, muddy feet... the list goes on.

I could let you all buy cream-colored sofas and have them destroyed by your 3 year olds, but I'd prefer to share my knowledge and help you avoid some work and a ruined sofa if possible. You could tell your child that scrubbing won't work, and help her avoid some work, but you don't... you let her "learn for herself". How is this helpful? Isn't the point of having all of these boards to help each other? Maybe people who think children should learn thse things "for themselves" should have to live their own lives this way...

Dar

[Dar]

Originally Posted by goldrose

KristiMetz, now that was a love and logic tactic - YiddisheMama chose to say something a certain way, that resulted in your natural reaction, and now it's "oh well" so sad, you lost your interest.

Oh, nice. So Love and Logic includes manipulating people into respending a certain way (insulting someone is likely to provoke a lack of interest in continuing a conversation, for sure) and then blaming them for the reaction you instigated. Luckily we as adults can see through the head games and the condescending "oh well, so sad", but small children at their parents' mercy generally can't....

Dar

[UUMom]

**so all you pros out there who run and do everything for your kids in the name of love, love, and love...how would you react if your 3 year old got hold of a black permanent marker and decorated the brand new ivory colored couch in the den?

just curious.**

If i had an ivory colored sofa, i would make sure it came with ivory colored washable slip covers.

If one has such a sofa and wee ones, it would make sense to have a back- up plan that didn't involve humiliating children to keep it looking a certain way.

[mama ganoush]

i would supervise my child until she was old enough to understand that art supplies are for paper. using love and logic to prevent the painted wall or sofa in the first place. rather than punish a child for age appropriate behavior.

[chfriend]

I have a turning 5 year old and a 15 month old. I have a 43 year old sofa with a slip cover. Coincidence? No.

Dp and I have fond conversations about when we'll get new stuff We figure when the youngest is 10 it'll be safe.

We're temporarily between wall-drawers. DD1 creates elaborate artwork. DD2 still eats the crayons.

We did have an evening recently where we covered the kitchen floor with a plastic tablecloth and big sheets of paper. We painted our hands and feet (dd2 pretty much painted herself) and did hand and foot prints.

Got lots of paint on the floor. We washed it up.

Oh, and if you have wood panel walls, you can chalk all over them. It comes right off.

I don't want to spend my short time with my children worrying about walls and furniture. As we say in our family, "People are more important than things."

It's part of an overall philosophy that we can work things out together; that we're here to help each other. My kids are an enormous help to me. I'm an enormous help to them. Dp is the greatest help I can imagine.

I was sick for 2 months, recently getting better. I required tremendous understanding from my children. They came through with empathy and understanding. All that "love, love, love" paid off big-time for me.

[Kathryn]

Wow. I am truly amazed at some of the stuff so called "gentle discipline" parents have the nerve to do to their child.

I've been anorexic for over 10 years. Wanna know why? Because of parents like the 2nd poster. Parents who give you a time limit on eating and then make you starve to your next meal because you didn't finish in time and call it a "natural consequence". I am disgusted. Do you even realize what kind of irreversible damage you could be doing? How dare you call that being a gentle parent, let alone an attachment parent. There is nothing gentle or attached about withholding food from a child or forcing them to finish within YOUR time limit. There is nothing gentle or attached about making your child cry because they wanted to play instead of putting on their pajamas. And then to be proud of her "training"?! She's not a dog! She doesn't need to be trained! She is a child, a gift, a privilege to have. Not something that needs to manipulated by a grown adult that should know better.

What has happened to this place? I can't even believe I'm on MDC anymore.

[ShadowMom]

Originally Posted by goldrose

KristiMetz, now that was a love and logic tactic - YiddisheMama chose to say something a certain way, that resulted in your natural reaction, and now it's "oh well" so sad, you lost your interest.

Yes, me losing interest in the conversation is indeed a natural consequence, is that what you're saying? I have nothing against natural consequences (as long as a child is old enough to understand and live with them) and in fact rely heavily upon them (if my DS wanted to go outside without a coat, he would be welcome to do so; if we left the house, I'd probably keep one in the car).

From what I've read of the book, and read here from people who follow this idealogy, however, I really don't think it's for me. I'm interested in reading more about natural consequences, but there are so many lively discussion here that hanging around MDC seems to be better than any book.

I knew there was a reason I hung around this place, even though I frequently feel stifled by the PTB.

[UUMom]

I have a terrible ache in my heart thinking of that scared and upset little 4 yr old trying to wash the wall while the mother looks on knowing she's wasting her time. That's just so sad. Why would anyone do that to a child?