Parenting With Love and Logic? - Page 4

[Kathryn]

Originally Posted by UUMom

I have a terrible ache in my heart thinking of that sad little 4 yr old trying to wash the wall while the mother looks on knowing she's wasting her time. That's just so sad.

Yep.

[sagira]

Whew! This thread has turned ugly.

OK, someone here (I don't remember, sorry!) mentioned to try the secret word technique. You know, perhaps I will. It seems to be a distraction. Anything to keep my son from being disrespectful and/or say bad words.

I don't say bad words (I know, some of you don't consider any words bad, but I really do ), and I never have. I'm big on politeness and treating other people with respect, especially treating my elders with deference because of their increased experience in life. I'm careful not to offend, and if I do accidentally, feel terrible about it and apologize.

I still maintain that the book Parenting With Love And Logic is not suitable, or recommended, IMO, for children. Perhaps some techniques would work with teenagers.

How on earth did shaving underarms and legs come into the picture? I understand the point (however obtusely made) about being "natural", but there was no need for that.

If it works for you, great. Families are so diverse it would be boring to have everyone employing the exact same parenting techniques. Considering each person's different personality and experience, it's also downright impossible IMO. Let's respect each other's differences, please.

[YiddisheMama]

Originally Posted by UUMom

I have a terrible ache in my heart thinking of that scared and upset little 4 yr old trying to wash the wall while the mother looks on knowing she's wasting her time. That's just so sad. Why would anyone do that to a child?

just for the record: my 4 year old may have been little, but she was far from scared and upset. she was actually pretty thrilled to be figuring out the solution on her own. and she knew i'd back whatever she decided. and i don't think trying to wash the wall was a waste of time, either. she learned that ink won't wash off a wall. she learned that repainting it will cover over the ink. she learned that her mommy isn't going to tell her what to do, but her mommy will support her decisions, and sometimes help direct her decisions (while she's still this young.)

[nonconformnmom]

AND she learned that when one thing doesn't work, keep trying! I see no harm in it.

[gaialice]

Originally Posted by YiddisheMama

it's never happened with my husband, and if it did, he'd wear a different shirt, no sweat..

Well perhaps the example was not well chosen. Suppose your husband prepared some cookies and forgot to turn off the oven and went on to play a game on the computer. Well, the natural consequence of that is (so said) burnt cookies. Using your love and logic technique, even if you found out what was going on, you would have to let his cookies burn, so he "learns a good life lesson". I am sure you would not do that. Why? Because you love him. Because the whole family would prefer to eat nice cookies. Because you would not want your dh to feel humiliated. Because you do not want to spend the whole day cleaning the oven. Because your husband wanted to do something nice and just because of one stupid mistake everything turns bad. I could go on. How could something be "natural" when it is only applied to the children in the family and noone else but them.

[UmmBnB]

We use L&L at our house quite successfully. I held off, having read some negative reviews in another group I'm involved with, but got to a point with my very high energy 4yo where I decided to go ahead and check it out. I felt like I'd tried everything! I read it in a few days and we immediately put the methods into practice.

The result for us was a much happier child and calmer household!

I agree with some folks who don't like the tone of parts of the book. I don't either. The whole 'basic german sherpard training' thing rubbed me the wrong way. I decided not to let the language used to explain the techniques get in the way of the techniques themselves.

They work like gold for us and ds is much more content when we are on our game with L&L...when we aren't, he is more aggitated for sure.

[goldrose]

Hmmm

For all the love and logic bashers out there, I wonder what it's like in your house when your child colors on your walls -
"hmm, honey, you colored on the walls? That's ok, because people are more important than things, so you're really welcome to color on the walls, and I'll do my best not to get upset. Because the truth is, I really don't care whether my house is presentable or not. Hey, lets color on the walls together! Now, wouldnt taht be fun?!"
By the way, there is a concept of not outgrowing coloring on walls. It's called grafitti. It comes from lack of an education on how to respect people's property.

[kchoffmann]

Originally Posted by mama ganoush

i would supervise my child until she was old enough to understand that art supplies are for paper. using love and logic to prevent the painted wall or sofa in the first place. rather than punish a child for age appropriate behavior.

This is the part of the L&L approach for young children that bothers me too. I have a 26 mo and I would never expect - or even want - him to act like an adult or even make "adult" choices. I can't imagine wanting that until he is, well, a whole lot closer to being an adult. What is this obsession in our culture with expecting adult behavior from our children? If my son refused to wear his coat (which I can't even imagine him doing - maybe he's not old enough for this behavior?) I would bring it with me and when he got cold later, I would let him have it - as another poster said she would do too. I would never expect him to be THAT responsible for himself - even a year or two from now. I say, let them be children learning how to be children, not children learning how to be adults. There's plenty of time for that when it's developmentally appropriate.

This is interesting to me, too, because I work as a HS counselor, and we have some L&L books on the bookshelf that make loads of sense to me for adolescents. I didn't even know they had books for younger kids.

All that said, I think there is a problem with a trend in parenting lately where parents give NO real boundaries to their children. This just leads to a whole lot of angry children. But, perhaps that whole issue is irrelevant here.

[HelloKitty]

I have not read the book but I do have an acquantaince that is trying the techniques and she has told me about some of the "natural consequences" she is using for her daughter and frankly they made me feel icky. I agree with some PPs that do not feel most of the approaches are "natural consequences" at all but seem more like manipulation tactics.

The natural consequence of not putting on jammies is going to bed in daytime clothes or naked...

I'm not interested in training my children like they are dogs - children should enjoy life and not be in constant lesson learning mode.

[kchoffmann]

Originally Posted by goldrose

By the way, there is a concept of not outgrowing coloring on walls. It's called grafitti. It comes from lack of an education on how to respect people's property.

No, this is not the result of young children coloring on walls. Believe me, I work with adolescents and see what leads to children disrespecting others. It's their misplaced anger, almost always at their parents, for not ________ fill in the blank - allowing them to be themselves, loving them for who they are, listening and/or noticing their feelings, etc. I'm not saying anyone here is doing that either. I just wanted this point to be clear.

[irinam]

Originally Posted by UUMom

I have a terrible ache in my heart thinking of that scared and upset little 4 yr old trying to wash the wall while the mother looks on knowing she's wasting her time. That's just so sad. Why would anyone do that to a child?

My thoughts exactly.

I read the whole thread. I am sorry, but the examples given for following this "Love and Logic" give me chills.

I treat my kids the way I want to be treated. Yes with love. Yes with logic. But also with compassion and understanding.

My kids do not "pay" for their mistakes and are not left alone to deal with their mistakes. I'll be the first one to jump to help them.

When I make mistakes, DH (and now DS ) are the first ones to help me fix them. They are not afraid I will not "learn my lesson"

so all you pros out there who run and do everything for your kids in the name of love, love, and love...how would you react if your 3 year old got hold of a black permanent marker and decorated the brand new ivory colored couch in the den?

just curious

I will proudly say that I indeed do everything in the name of love.

Marked couch? I'd seriously ask myself "What was *I* thinking getting the ivory couch with kids in the house! I guess I have to live with the consequences of having the marked couch now..."

[maya44]

Originally Posted by UUMom

**so all you pros out there who run and do everything for your kids in the name of love, love, and love...how would you react if your 3 year old got hold of a black permanent marker and decorated the brand new ivory colored couch in the den?

just curious.**

If i had an ivory colored sofa, i would make sure it came with ivory colored washable slip covers.

If one has such a sofa and wee ones, it would make sense to have a back- up plan that didn't involve humiliating children to keep it looking a certain way.

I agree with UU mom. I am fairly "strict" but a three year old a permanent marker and an ivory couch are more my problem than the three year olds.

And I don't think you understand what a "natural" consequence is, YM.

Yours may be "logical" but it's not "natural" and to me it was too much for a four year old.

My reaction to my four year old writing on the walls would be to tell them that they should not have done that and that I expect them to only write on paper from now on.

[IncaMama]

Originally Posted by YiddisheMama

that's where you and i differ. i don't see this as a punishment, it's a natural consequence. i don't "punish" my kids either. and it's never happened with my husband, and if it did, he'd wear a different shirt, no sweat.

and yes, i help them clean their room, they're still young.

but here, let me give you an example of natural consqequences.

my then 4 year old daughter autographed the walls in the bathroom. when i saw it, i did not get upset or yell or punish. i calmly said, "oh this is so sad. paper is for coloring on. what are you going to do about the walls?"

so she thought and said, "well, i can wash it off."

so i helped her get a towel and some detergent and she tried scrubbing. it did not come off (which i knew it wouldn't, but i figured i'd let her learn it by herself without me telling her.)

she came to me and said, "mommy, it's not washing off."

i asked, "oh, so what can you do about the walls?" (again, i asked this very calmly.

her: "maybe we can paint it."

me: "hmm, that could work. paint costs money, do you have enough money to buy some paint.?"

her (jumping up, all excited by the idea): "let me count"

a few minutes later...she realized she didn't have enough money.

me: "sometimes when people need money, they can do jobs to earn it. i can pay you to do some jobs you wouldn't normally be doing."

i then gave her a choice of vacuuming the living room or washing the bathroom floor. she choose the bathroom. she had a ball doing it, until the last five minutes when she started saying it was getting hard.

me: "I know, washing floors is hard work. i bet you'll be happy when you're done."

her: "can i stop now?"

me: "you can stop when you want, i only pay for completed jobs."

she finished it. collected her money. and she was very very very proid of herself.

she did a few more jobs, earned more money.

lots of lessons learned.

more lessons, going to home depot with me to buy the paint. counting money at the cash register, paying the cashier...all by herself. a very very proud and smarter 4 year old left the store.

as far as the actual painting, we discussed that she'd paint the spot where she drew and i'd do the rest of the walls so it would match.

no hurt, no pain, no anger, no threats, no spanks, just lots of fun lessons in a real life, practical way.

this feels so sad to me. i'm sure you had the best intentions and it seems that your daughter weathered it well, but there were several moments of sheer disappointment that could have been avoided...and i don't understand why you chose to have her go through them?

[IncaMama]

Originally Posted by goldrose

Hmmm

For all the love and logic bashers out there, I wonder what it's like in your house when your child colors on your walls -
"hmm, honey, you colored on the walls? That's ok, because people are more important than things, so you're really welcome to color on the walls, and I'll do my best not to get upset. Because the truth is, I really don't care whether my house is presentable or not. Hey, lets color on the walls together! Now, wouldnt taht be fun?!"
By the way, there is a concept of not outgrowing coloring on walls. It's called grafitti. It comes from lack of an education on how to respect people's property.

my 2.5yo son has pretty much learned that he's not supposed to color on walls (i'm sure he'll mess up at some point)...the way we taught him was that every time he tried (first of all i was always around when he had implements of drawing) i'd say "rowan, we use our crayons on paper. here, let's draw something together". if he kept trying to draw on the wall i'd say something like "please don't draw on the wall, we draw on paper instead." if he tried a third time...well, i don't think there ever was a third time. i'm not saying he only EVER tried twice, but in each "session" there was never a third time.

he also always said "sorry" when he did it...which is something that i have never EVER told him to say. i've said it to him when i'm really sorry about something (like i accidentally did something that affected him negatively in some way) but i've NEVER told him to say please, thank you, or sorry. he just sort of picked it up. anyway, when he said "Sorry" for drawing on the walls i'd just say "it's ok, i make mistakes too. let's draw a picture on the paper" (or something similar).

so...anyway, since you were asking how someone else would handle it...that's how i handled it.

oh...also, when he was really little...we let him draw on one section of one wall with soap. washes off easily and was a load of fun for him.

[TortelliniMama]

Originally Posted by UUMom

I have a terrible ache in my heart thinking of that scared and upset little 4 yr old trying to wash the wall while the mother looks on knowing she's wasting her time. That's just so sad. Why would anyone do that to a child?

That example didn't bother me nearly as much as some of the previous ones, actually. It went on way too long, and turned a minor incident into a huge deal, but it didn't seem as traumatic for the little girl as some other examples. I guess, based on what I've been reading about L&L, I was expecting something more like this:

"Oh, this is so sad. Since you wrote on the bathroom walls, I'm going to have to lock you out of the bathroom for a month. Here's a bucket to use instead."

[irinam]

Originally Posted by TortelliniMama

"Oh, this is so sad. Since you wrote on the bathroom walls, I'm going to have to lock you out of the bathroom for a month. Here's a bucket to use instead."

You forgot to add "I love you!"

[Starflower]

I was initially curious about this thread because they are offering a Love & Logic workshop at our local YMCA. From what I have seen here, it doesn't sound like something I'd be interested in though. No big deal.

However, what's more disappointing is not that the book may not be to my liking, but that some of the comments here are so rude and condescending.

Even if I thought the book might be of interest to me, the "flavor" this thread has taken would probably make me put it back on the shelf.

[AntoninBeGonin]

Originally Posted by YiddisheMama

my then 4 year old daughter autographed the walls in the bathroom. when i saw it, i did not get upset or yell or punish. i calmly said, "oh this is so sad. paper is for coloring on. what are you going to do about the walls?"

so she thought and said, "well, i can wash it off."

so i helped her get a towel and some detergent and she tried scrubbing. it did not come off (which i knew it wouldn't, but i figured i'd let her learn it by herself without me telling her.)

she came to me and said, "mommy, it's not washing off."

i asked, "oh, so what can you do about the walls?" (again, i asked this very calmly.

her: "maybe we can paint it."

me: "hmm, that could work. paint costs money, do you have enough money to buy some paint.?"

her (jumping up, all excited by the idea): "let me count"

a few minutes later...she realized she didn't have enough money.

me: "sometimes when people need money, they can do jobs to earn it. i can pay you to do some jobs you wouldn't normally be doing."

i then gave her a choice of vacuuming the living room or washing the bathroom floor. she choose the bathroom. she had a ball doing it, until the last five minutes when she started saying it was getting hard.

me: "I know, washing floors is hard work. i bet you'll be happy when you're done."

her: "can i stop now?"

me: "you can stop when you want, i only pay for completed jobs."

she finished it. collected her money. and she was very very very proid of herself.

she did a few more jobs, earned more money.

lots of lessons learned.

more lessons, going to home depot with me to buy the paint. counting money at the cash register, paying the cashier...all by herself. a very very proud and smarter 4 year old left the store.

as far as the actual painting, we discussed that she'd paint the spot where she drew and i'd do the rest of the walls so it would match.

no hurt, no pain, no anger, no threats, no spanks, just lots of fun lessons in a real life, practical way.

I know everyone is jumping on YM about this, but from what I know about 4 year olds, I'd say that there was nothing wrong with how she handled the situation. You have to remember, four year olds are kids, but they are not even close to the same level of kid as a toddler or two-three year old.

I was the oldest child of four, spent many years baby-sitting, and worked as a daycare teacher up until I had my son. I've been around many kids in my life. Most four year olds I've met like being treated more like an adult, as in they enjoy helping with difficult decisions. I hope I'm making sense--I'm not great at explaining myself. Now, don't read my words wrong and try to accuse me of saying four year olds should run out, get jobs, and ACT like adults. No, I did not say that. I said they like to be treated more like an adult. That means they (again, the ones I've known--not necessarily your kids) are perfectly happy to be asked to brainstorm ideas to clean up their messes, etc.

Also, I don't understand the Natural Consequences/Not Natural Consequences attack going on here. Obviously, the natural consequence of writing on walls is to just let the writing stay there indefinitely. Why should the mother have to be punished by cleaning the child's mess any more than the child does? So, in this situation natural consequences aren't really an option. In this particular situation prevention would have been the best policy, but we all know kids are pretty good at climbing and finding things we think are out of reach. Heck, my 13 month old has climbed from the floor to the kitchen table! I know a four year old could probably climb onto, or open nearly anything in a house to get to what she wanted. So, laying the blame on the mom--"Why didn't you put that away!" isn't fair either.

Basically, I don't see anything wrong with how the mom reacted. The daughter sounds like a mature four year old, she was asked for her help and cooperation, she thought of ways to right a wrong, and was not hurt in the process.

~Nay

[mama ganoush]

Originally Posted by goldrose

Hmmm

For all the love and logic bashers out there, I wonder what it's like in your house when your child colors on your walls -
"hmm, honey, you colored on the walls? That's ok, because people are more important than things, so you're really welcome to color on the walls, and I'll do my best not to get upset. Because the truth is, I really don't care whether my house is presentable or not. Hey, lets color on the walls together! Now, wouldnt taht be fun?!"

my child has never colored on walls because i supervised her when she used art supplies until she knew for sure what materials it is appropriate to use with them. i would no more leave my 4 year old with a permanent marker than i would a knife. if something i valued, like my couch, was ruined by my unsupervised child, i would figure that was MY natural consequence, not my dd's.

[Victorian]

I think that the problem that I have with L&L (and yes, I have read the book) is that it takes a CHILD and uses LOGIC that only applies to adults. Yes it is OK to have expectations of children and even rules for the house, but you can't expect a small child to see the logic in your actions. You see (as an example): not getting dressed for bed and being sassy = going to room till willing to cooperate. The child sees: I am a bad girl and mommy doesn't love me when I am.

It is all about having age appropriate expections of our children. Letting them be children. Letting them grow up secure in the knowledge that you love them and no matter what you will not abandon them. Or else, how can you expect them to come to you when they are 16 and at a party where their ride is drunk???

As for the poor written on couch...My daughter painted our futon frame with ketsup on day. We told her that it is for fries, not furniture. She laughed, we laughed, we all worked together to clean it up. This is what being a parent is about. Helping our children gracefully learn to be adult, slowly over many, many years. It is not about punishing them into perfect behavior at all times (and what you are describing about them making you sad and going to their rooms is a punishment).

But then, I am just a hairy mom trying to understand why someone would come to a NATURAL parenting website and insult NATURAL women. ...oh the mysteries of this world...

Victorian

(who is two more terms away from a BA in Child/Family Studies - WOOHOO)