Parenting With Love and Logic? - Page 5

[mama ganoush]

Originally Posted by Victorian

I think that the problem that I have with L&L (and yes, I have read the book) is that it takes a CHILD and uses LOGIC that only applies to adults. Yes it is OK to have expectations of children and even rules for the house, but you can't expect a small child to see the logic in your actions. You see (as an example): not getting dressed for bed and being sassy = going to room till willing to cooperate. The child sees: I am a bad girl and mommy doesn't love me when I am.

It is all about having age appropriate expections of our children. Letting them be children. Letting them grow up secure in the knowledge that you love them and no matter what you will not abandon them. Or else, how can you expect them to come to you when they are 16 and at a party where their ride is drunk???

As for the poor written on couch...My daughter painted our futon frame with ketsup on day. We told her that it is for fries, not furniture. She laughed, we laughed, we all worked together to clean it up. This is what being a parent is about. Helping our children gracefully learn to be adult, slowly over many, many years. It is not about punishing them into perfect behavior at all times (and what you are describing about them making you sad and going to their rooms is a punishment).

But then, I am just a hairy mom trying to understand why someone would come to a NATURAL parenting website and insult NATURAL women. ...oh the mysteries of this world...

Victorian

(who is two more terms away from a BA in Child/Family Studies - WOOHOO)

[liawbh]

And that's one more reason to V.!

[irinam]

Wonderful post Victorian. Mind if I quote you sometimes?

[Kathryn]

I you Victorian.

[zipworth]

I don't even know Victorian and I love her from the one post I have read. You will be wonderful in your career working with families and children.

Back to lurkdum.......

[zipworth]

Just wanted to add.....

I have read this whole thread! It has turned ugly in spots but is a facinating debate that I have come across many, many, times in my job as an early childhood educator. Without rambling into oblivion about child psychology and developmentally appropriate expectations for children, my experience as an early childhood educator and as a parent has helped me learn a few things.

1) Children respond to genuine emotions expressed genuinely, and do not respond well in the long term to being manipulated. Nor do adults. Just because we are older and'wiser' doesn't make it o.k. to try to trick them. I don't like it when people do this to me-it's just disrespectful. Sying things like "That's so sad" when something isn't sad just is false. Frustrating maybe? But then, that's your problem. I know a lot of daycare teachers who used this tactic on children and it was kind of rediculous to watch. Some children responded to it by complying the first few times, but then most rejected that form of manipulation by exhibiting even more extreme behaviours.

2) Imposing consequences that make no sense-just makes no sense yk? My son is a very slow eater. If I had to be somewhere and he hadn't finished eating I would explain the situation to him and let him choose a snack to bring along. I would do the same thing for myself if the situation were reversed.

3) Preserving the dignity of the child is so important. No, they are not little adults cognitively, but they have the same emotions as us. They have rights too! Just because were are adults doesn't mean that our needs and emotions are more important. My son doen't have the same amount of information that I do about life, but his feelings matter to me deeply. If he refuses to put clothes on and it is really cold in our house (our house is chilly in the mornings) I try to respect that but I have his clothes nearby in case he changes his mind, which he almost always does.

4) Someday these children will be taking care of US when we are old and feeble! Do we really want them to learn the way to care for someone is to coerce and manipulate??? I don't want Liam saying to me...."Sorry mom, but you were too slow eating your lunch so you'll have to wait 4 hours till dinner is served. Maybe next time you'll be faster."???

5) I have worked for ten years with children under 6. I started off using a lot of manipulation because I didn't know any other way. I still have some days when my brain isn't working and slip back into the occasional coercive tactic, but I try very hard to be as respectful and concious of the child's emotions as I possibly can. I can tell you that it is way more difficult but infinitely more rewarding to work with and love small children while respecting their emotions and humanity. And people really are more important than things.


I will have to read Parenting with Love and Logic before I can comment on it.........

Sorry for this long, rambling, somewhat off topic post

[mamadawg]

Reason #10098374 why I love Victorian so much.

[irinam]

I don't know Natalie... I am afraid I disagree with you on your last point.
















I saw you post as coherent, very much on topic and completely relevant :LOL

I love reading posts where mamas can express themselves so eloquently

[Minky]

Originally Posted by goldrose

Hmmm

For all the love and logic bashers out there, I wonder what it's like in your house when your child colors on your walls -
"hmm, honey, you colored on the walls? That's ok, because people are more important than things, so you're really welcome to color on the walls, and I'll do my best not to get upset. Because the truth is, I really don't care whether my house is presentable or not. Hey, lets color on the walls together! Now, wouldnt taht be fun?!"
By the way, there is a concept of not outgrowing coloring on walls. It's called grafitti. It comes from lack of an education on how to respect people's property.

This is why I never come into this forum.

If I was gentle all the time, the walls would be crayoned, DD would go outside in her bathing suit in December, we would never make it to preschool, doctor's appointments, or play dates, and there would be candy bars for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

I have not read the natural consequences book but my approach to discipline is a lot closer to what Gold Rose does than what I've seen in the rest of the threads in here. I have found that when DD learn's the consequences of her actions, she does not need as much discipline, gentle or otherwise, and has learned a lot of the responsibilities that she now likes, such as getting PJs on at night, picking an outfit in the morning within reason, helping select meal's within reason.

[HelloKitty]

Originally Posted by Minky

If I was gentle all the time, the walls would be crayoned, DD would go outside in her bathing suit in December, we would never make it to preschool, doctor's appointments, or play dates, and there would be candy bars for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Do you really feel this way???? I think you have confused gentle discipline with NO discipline. There really is a difference. Please stick around and try to learn about it - you might be pleasantly surprised.

I'm gentle with my children and my walls are not crayoned, my son wears warm clothes in the winter (they may not be matching however) and we go to playdates and a parent / child class each week. We are very rarely late. Oh and I don't have candy bars in my house (at least not ones that my sons know about! My chocolate is hidden )

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by Minky

This is why I never come into this forum.

If I was gentle all the time, the walls would be crayoned, DD would go outside in her bathing suit in December, we would never make it to preschool, doctor's appointments, or play dates, and there would be candy bars for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

This widespread misconception of gentle discipline bothers me. So many people believe that gentle=doormat. That is NOT always the case! I use gentle discipline and my walls are not crayoned, my son wears appropriate seasonal clothing (though not always matching), we make it to our appointments on time, and eats healthy food (mostly ).

My definition of gentle discipline most assuredly contains 'discipline'...I just do it gently, keeping my son's spirit intact and treating him the way I would want to be treated. I don't always get my way or get what I want in life, and neither does he. But, I try to explain things to him as they happen so he will learn along the way, and as he gets older I will look for his input in problem solving. At this point in his development, I redirect my son to things he *can* do instead of just telling him he *can't* do something...I give him ample time for transitions and talk to him about them the whole time. I engage him in helping me get things ready to go, and will continue to do this and have races, or silly games with him to get things done as he gets older.

what I do NOT do is: Berate him, tell him he's "bad" (or imply that he's bad by saying he's not being sweet), send him away to be by himself if he does something inappropriate, or force him to pay the price for the consequences of making 'decisions' he can't possibly comprehend at his age (and I won't do that in the future). Basically, I treat him the way I would like to be treated, keeping in mind his intellectual, social, and emotional development and his age; I treat him the way I treat my parents, my dear friends; the way I expect my DH to treat me. He'll learn how life works by living life with us, and I'm sure DH and I will learn a few things from him along the way.

...and, I do NOT let him run around the house doing as he pleases.

Please realize that though there are some who practice a lower intervention style of gentle parenting (and even those who practice low intervention parenting are still actively sdiscussing things with their children, not just letting them run wild), there are those of us that do set limits and boundaries, but do it gently, without arbitrary consequences and without major emotional manipulation.

ALSO....I make mistakes, plenty of them. All I can do is regroup and keep trying, and apologize if I need to. Just as I would to my DH, my mom, my friend. Nobody's perfect....I sure don't want my children to try to be, or be afraid if they're not.

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by HelloKitty

Do you really feel this way???? I think you have confused gentle discipline with NO discipline. There really is a difference. Please stick around and try to learn about it - you might be pleasantly surprised.

I'm gentle with my children and my walls are not crayoned, my son wears warm clothes in the winter (they may not be matching however) and we go to playdates and a parent / child class each week. We are very rarely late. Oh and I don't have candy bars in my house (at least not ones that my sons know about! My chocolate is hidden )

Hello Kitty, we cross posted! Glad to know I'm not alone out here!!

[Attila the Honey]

Ok, I read this whole thread. At times it made me totally

I just wanted to say that my immediate reaction to the L+L examples is that they are so... fake? So lacking in genuiness. I don't put on an act when I interact with my dd, I don't do this whole "I am so sad, this is so sad" roleplay, and I can't imagine that doing that could be part of a healthy relationship. We value honesty and sincerity in this family. When my 2yo wants to play and I am in a rush, it doesn't make me SAD. It may make me frustrated, but ultimately that is my problem as my 2yo is (usually) acting precisely as a 2yo was meant to act.

Regarding drawing on the walls, generally my theory is that there shouldn't be unsupervised access to crayons and markers before the child is old enough to understand where to use them. But, accidents happen and it happened here just last week. It didn't occur to me that this was a big deal, that drawing on walls would lead to her becoming a graffiti artist! I didn't even consider there was a long drawn out bit of theatrics involved. I just told her, in a straightforward and kind way, that if we all drew on walls our house would look icky and we really need to clean that up. Then, she 'helped' while I cleaned it off. (Magic Erasers really are magic, one swipe and it was gone. We keep a pkg for just this sort of emergency.) Then I found a better hiding spot for the crayons.

I'll be on the lookout for cans of spraypaint hidden under her bed in the coming years, though.

I love you!

[maya44]

Originally Posted by Minky

This is why I never come into this forum.

If I was gentle all the time, the walls would be crayoned, DD would go outside in her bathing suit in December, we would never make it to preschool, doctor's appointments, or play dates, and there would be candy bars for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

You really do need to learn more about GD.

My style of GD does not involve any of those things.

You can tell your child that no they can't write on the walls, go outside dressed inappropriately, that they must be on time for things and still be gentle about it.

My way of being gentle is that while I am willing to say "no' and set rules, I don't feel the need to "back that up" with much in the way of consequences. I will remove temporarily the means of misbehavior to protect the person or property of another but that is about it.

You can also tell them they can't have only candy for meals and still be gentle but in our house, you can have a portion it for lunch and dinner and if you don't want to eat anything else that is your business.
Not one of my children has EVER been interested in eating nothing but candy for a meal, they think its gross!

[monkey's mom]

Seriously. Maya's style and my style are very different, and we don't have those issues either.

[maya44]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

Seriously. Maya's style and my style are very different, and we don't have those issues either.

Exactly. There are many styles of GD. But none involve consequences just to "teach your child a lesson" that is punishment and its really not necessary at all.

[UUMom]

What an absolutely absurd turn this conversation has taken!

None of my children have ever crayoned walls or used markers on the sofa. As soon as I get a blog, I'll come back to this thread and post pix of the house we've lived in for 11 years-- since my third was an infant, my second was 2 and my oldest was 6. My youngest was born in this home. I think you be might surprised at how the home of 4 gently raised children wouldn't look like the Super Dome after Katrina.


If anyone has web space, i can email pix.

[Victorian]

I forgot to mention on my post that my dd never painted our futon again

Also, she is extremely spirited (or spit-fire as my mom would have proudly said). I find that 99% of problems can be avoided with careful planning and making her aware of the situation (i.e. next week you have a dr. appointment, tomorrow you have an appointment, in two hours, we leave in 1/2 hour..etc.) We get to school on time because we plan to. We set out clothes for her to wear the entire week on Sunday. We keep choices of breakfast food in the house that she likes.

We are not perfect, our parenting has seen HIGHS and lows. But in the low times, it is horrible and obvious that it is not working. So we hurry to change back to more effective disciple.

But to be honest, I'd have to pick up the train pieces if the governor was coming to dinner (which he rarely does - so it seems silly to stress about it). If it was Mamadawg, probabley wouldn't :LOL

Victorian

p.s. :embarrassed I all of you too

[mamadawg]

Ha! You wouldn't pick up for me but you would for old Ted?

Your priorities are all mixed up, V.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by mamadawg

Ha! You wouldn't pick up for me but you would for old Ted?

Your priorities are all mixed up, V.

LOL

There. Now I feel better again.