Polio: 1/1000 "infection" rate. Scientific discussion. - Page 4

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by vegiemom

My daughter has yet to have her 5 yr. (before kindergarten) polio vaccine.
I decided to have her shots 6 weeks apart or so. She last had the dpt vaccine and shortly after developed a hideous welt with a hole in the center a bit below the shot site. After a few days a red line started leading away from it and I got really worried.

Long story short they decided to give her 2 weeks of strong antibiotics in case of a tick bite. (She also had 2 much smaller and less severe bumps on inside of same arm, so ticks were pretty much ruled out.) Anyway, she developed a very bad rash on her face and she was itchy pretty much all over. We threw away the antibiotics and steroid cream "they" gave us and gave her plenty of water and good food and it has finally disappeared.

I really do not want to get her the polio vaccine. But I am still so unsure about this! All of these posts from everyone are extremely helpful so please keep up the great info!

VegieMom

Vegiemom, do you think that she might have had urticaria (hives) as a reaction to the shot? Urticaria can look like a tick bite, but are usually followed by a few more as well... which look like a mozzie attack.

tschad

Can someone (MT?) explain to me the 1/200 vs 1/1000, or anything that I can relay to my family that might explain why I still am not set on vaxing DD for polio even though we are in MN? (Note, we are not Amish, nor are we near that community.)

1 in 200 is the scareness statistic used, just like before the salk vaccine was given parents were told that it was important becasue 1 in 20 people under 20 had had some degree of polio paralysis before hand.

The figure mostly quoted in literature is 1 case of paralysis per 1,000 silent cases. But the reality is usually very different. In this country the highest rate historically was 1 per 2,000 in the North Island and 1 per 4,000 in the South Island in the early 50's.... So rates vary.

Also, if you can help me understand, even if no injectable vaccines contain SV-40 now (or might they, since it could have come from an infected cutter?), couldn't they still contain one of the 160(?) other possible simian contaminants? In other words, isn't there still greater risk of complications (not just with the chemical additives) from the vaccine itself even today than of contracting the disease itself?

As someone else said in another thread, they can only test for what they know to look for. I think if people retrospectively tested old vaccine from 20 years ago, with today's tests, they would shudder in horror. The same might apply in 20 years time. That is why the manufacturers always hedge their pamphlets with the statement that the vaccines are adventitious free as far as current testing will prove.

Tschad, its easiest to look at it, is this way. At the height of epidemics in the early 50's, 99.6% of people acquired natural immunity by picking up the wild virus, in the same way as the OPV is spreading in the Amish now. The Amish are happily picking up immunity and no disease. Exactly what is the CDC's issue with this? The 1/200 is a theoretical figure which has no basis in shoe-leather epidemiology. It's designed to get you scared.

Here's an idea for you. Ring the CDC, and ask them to give you a good evidence proving that the rate of paralytic polio would be 1/200 within the last two year, in the community within which the virus has spread. They can't and they won't, because its a nonsense.

Zuri's Papa

Has there been any further work done with Dr. Sandler's findings?

No. And any scientist who suggested it would be offered and instant one way ticket to Mars on the first exploratory NASA flight.

[Francy]

Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara

At the height of epidemics in the early 50's, 99.6% of people acquired natural immunity by picking up the wild virus, in the same way as the OPV is spreading in the Amish now. The Amish are happily picking up immunity and no disease. Exactly what is the CDC's issue with this?

well, again to return to the 1979 and 1992 stuff, the reply i get from the pro-vaxers, is that in 1979 10-15 amish were paralyzed, and in 1992 netherlands, 68 people were affected (59 paralyzed, 2 killed).

and i don't know what to say in reply. b/c those numbers do sound unsettling (especially the latter stats, where the percentages are so incredibly high).

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Zuripapa: no, no further work was done on Sandler's work, but the book is very comprehensive. Besides they would say there is a vaccine, so what is the point?

Francy, I'd have to go back and check the 1979 stats, and the 1992 stats. Like I say, life is a trade off. My husband lived through all the polio outbreaks from 1932 onwards, and only got polio AFTER he had had 3 SALK vaccines, and 2 SABINS so much good that did him.

I didn't get my first polio vaccine until 1961, and even then, only had one. Like most people then, I probably just got immunity.

As to why the Amish got it, if those stats are true, raises a lot of issues.

Lots of things in life are scarey. Alzheimers is scarey. My step mother died of that, and I sat and watch 6 years of hell. And then, when I read Fudenburg's work talking about how anyone who had had five annual flu vaccines in a row was much more likely to get alzheimers, I knew I'd rather run the risk of the flu. Not that I'd ever get any anyway.

When it comes to polio, no-one in my family tree has ever had it, so I have to presume on the basis of Wyatt's work, and Gadjusek's comment about that state, I never fell into the 1 per 1,000 who were vulnerable.

Maybe the Amish did. And certainly if susceptibility to disease is genetically based, in a wider family you'd expect to see more than one in one large family, simply because the genes are "localised" you might say, whereas the 1 per 1,000 figure is cross-population. That, IMO, is why you used to see clusters in the early 1900's. Those were the days when families lived close to one another.

[haitimom]

i'm new to this whole chatting online thing. i have not vaccinated my kids fully. my oldest was born in haiti. he had the vitamin k shot at 1 day old because of an infection that caused a severe fever and he was already jaundiced. this summer he stepped on a rusty wallpaper scraper. after thinking about it i decided to give him the dt. my daughter only has her first hep b. she was born in hospital and went straight to surgery. it was given without my initial consent. my youngest has no vaccinations.
my problem is, my husband took a job and we are now back in haiti. i ndid not have time to do new research on my stand against vac. in the u.s. a person is unlikely to ever come in contact with these diseases but in haiti they are alive and well. i need all the info. i can get. i am mostly afraid of diptheria and polio. :

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Bump

[gardenmommy]

MT, thank you for compiling all that info into one thread. It has taken me several days to get through it, and I've found it quite enlightening. Sad and scary what "they" will do to protect the sacred cow.

If you don't mind, I will try to print out some of it for my references. I may also try to email it to my FIL (maybe after seeing the vast amount of info I've read, he'll stop harassing me to shoot up my children!)

[guestmama9911]

I have just read this entire thread in one evening, word for word, while nyrsing DS to sleep. It has been quite informative and fascinating. Momtezuma, you are incredibly generous for sharing your knowledge and experience with us, and we are lucky to have you. You should turn that vast storage room of information in your head into a book.

[Vicky2005]

Momtezuma I love you.
Great history and explanation. I was reading it yesterday like mistry story....very interesting....

Let me tell you that I am not affraid any longer not to vaccinate my child. After reading this, I will never trust them.

oh and bye the way, did I tell you I love you

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by alisaterry

I have just read this entire thread in one evening, word for word, while nyrsing DS to sleep. It has been quite informative and fascinating. Momtezuma, you are incredibly generous for sharing your knowledge and experience with us, and we are lucky to have you. You should turn that vast storage room of information in your head into a book.

I've just written one, but there isn't much about polio in it, and none of this stuff. There's only so much you can say, and this book was deliberately intended to take a different tack.

Originally Posted by Vicky2005

Momtezuma I love you.
Great history and explanation. I was reading it yesterday like mistry story....very interesting....

Let me tell you that I am not affraid any longer not to vaccinate my child. After reading this, I will never trust them.

oh and bye the way, did I tell you I love you

No you didn't. But you have now. Shhhh.....

My husband might hear you and get jealous.

[tayndrewsmama]

Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara

I've just written one, but there isn't much about polio in it, and none of this stuff. There's only so much you can say, and this book was deliberately intended to take a different tack.

That's right!!! Weren't you expecting, last I recall, for the book to be published this month or next?

[Tracy]

bump. Carla can this thread be archived under Polio?

thanks tracy

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

bump Archive pleaase