WWYD-- 7 yo dd saying "I don't like myself."

[frand]

Help me understand if this is a normal expression that comes up occasionally or real cause for alarm. Md dd is 7, almost 8, an only child. She was kind of singled out in kindergarten and excluded among some of the girls, and we have been working on that for the past two years. She has good friends on our block, and seems to get along with most of the boys at her school, but still seems to carry a stigma with some of the girls snubbing her. Being an only child, it's harder for her to navigate this and understand hurtful behavior. She is not an easygoing girl and can be willful. Her preschool teacher told me she would never be a follower and that was a good thing, because she's strong, but that it also meant she wouldn't modify her behavior to 'fit in' or be popular and that meant she'd be on the fringe sometimes. So here's the issue-- her best friend who lives right behind us, who practically lived at our house over the summer, has started to snub my daughter now that school is back in session. The other day as I picked my daughter up at lunch, this friend was walking by with another girl, arm in arm, and when my daughter said hello, they both ignored her. When my daughter tried to walk with them, they walked faster. Then (ouch, really ouch) they looked at her over their shoulders, laughed and ran away laughing at her. I was floored and it was all I could do to keep my own calm. I don't know where this cruelty came from all of a sudden.

At any rate, dd and I talked about it and I told her not to let it upset her even tho I understood that it hurt, that we would just focus on other children who were her friends. But the next night, when she was tired and about to fall asleep, she said, "Sometimes I don't like myself." She wouldn't elaborate other than to say she didn't like herself when she couldn't make herself listen to her dad or me. But I don't think it's a coincidence that she said this for the first time the day after her supposed best friend did something so deliberately cruel. And she's continued to say it at night at the end of the day, even as she plays with other friends and has fun days.

So I'm trying to understand, is this a way of saying, "I don't like how I feel," which we can work on, or is this a sign for something deeper that we need to get help with?

And I'm just so angry at that 'friend' of hers I don't know what to do with my own anger. This girl was over at our house at 10 every morning and followed us everywhere all summer.

I could write this off as one of those painful life lessons that suck except for the way it seems to have hit my daughter's self-esteem.--"I don't like myself." I expected things like this when she was a teenager but at 8 I'm at a loss as it is totally unexpected. I will say that from a very early age my dd has articulated her feelings in ways that have stunned me, that I wasn't ready for. So part of me feels like she's just really articulate and can pinpoint her feelings and express them really well but part of me is really scared, hearing those words from someone so young and who I love so very much....

[beansricerevolt]

That is so sad. I wish I had some answers. As far as the best friend, I would sit down with both girls and the best friends mom and talk out what has been happening between the 2 since school started. This will show your dd that your on her side which might help her self asteem as well, and close some doors if her friend doesn't want to befriend her anymore. You could also arrange a playdate with a different child to start a new friendship. Good Luck mama, i'll be praying for your dd.

[AndiG]

oh I am sorry. I can't imagine how much that must have hurt both you and your daughter.

I remember being an 8 year old with similar problems. My 9th birthday had only one child attend and my then best friend of four years wouldn't because she didnt like the other girl I'd invited. We got over it but it was a rough time.

I would try talking to your daughter about her "I don't like myself' statement. What doesn't she like about herself? Is it things she says or does or things she thinks that she thinks she shouldn't?

I had one good friend in public school. We were singled out (in a special program) and were only exposed to the other kids when outside and they did snub us and it was hard.

My mom was really really important to me and she spent a lot of time talking with me about things like
1. its really important to like yourself. If you don't think you're a nice person that you can be friends with, how can other people.
2. finding things to do that I liked to do by myself so I wasnt looking for other people to complete me. (This sounds odd, but I spent a lot of time as a child reading or alone in my room, I think it worried her) but I was happy enough, just solitary.
3. Try to offer your daughter chances to make friends outside of her current social circle... girls clubs of America, Brownies, organized sports all would give her interesting things to do with people that don't know her or her past and would perhaps boost her self esteem. Even something more solitary like music lessons?
4. If there is something tangible that she doesnt like about herself, (for me it was my temper.) then try to encourage her to change herself from within.
I spent a couple of years trying to get my temper under control because I felt like my emotions were so huge and unmanageable. But I never shied away from telling people how I felt, even if the emotions were big and they might not want to hear it.
Encourage her to express herself and to talk about and cope with how she is feeling.
I'm so sorry she is sad right now.

[Luke'N'Mom24/7]

My DD was about this age when her "friends" started doing things w/out her and making her feel bad at recess because she's "not invited"-- they would write notes back and forth to each other about my DD and laugh at her. They would straight out tell her, "You can't play with us!" My DD would cry after school and really felt bad about herself.

Turns out that one of the girls was pressuring the others to exclude her and she wasn't the only girl they were doing this to. I'm friends with some of the mothers and we were all concerned and had talks about how to handle the situation, and after we tried to help them all get along and treat each other better, it got worse, and we started to feel awkward around each other. So we decided the girls had to "work things out" amongst each other, and it did get better...once everyone had a "taste" of what it felt like to be left out and laughed at.

I just encouraged my DD to look outside her current circle of friends and she did find other girls to play with. She is still friends with 2 of the girls, but has a very sour view of the one girl, who -- to this day -- has an attitude. But my DD knows that she just plain has an attitude with everyone--she thinks she's so much better because of who her grandmother/family is in the community. Not everyone has to 'like' each other, they just need to get along and treat each other with the dignity and respect they want in return.

It's unfortunate, but I've heard that this happens A LOT at that age.

HTH

[kewb]

I am so thankful someone asked this question. I have been dealing with a similar situation with my ds. I just want to cry and lash out at the other child(ren) when he has problems with his friends.

Why is growing up so difficult.

[mama2monkeys]

My dd is almost 8 & we have been having similar issues. My dd lately has made comments like " i don't deserve to have friends", "no wonder noone likes me"...then it turned to why doesn't anyone like me?? She switched schools a few weeks ago & i think its the stigma of a new school, changing mid year etc.


I am so sorry that you & dd are being hurt by this. I can so relate. It is so hard for kids to grow up as it is without the extra stress of not fitting in.

The best friends bewhavior in my opinion since the girls were so close over hte summer would be to talk to the other girls mom & try to figure out if something happened.

Is your dd developing early & the others are not?? Just a question, my dd at 8 wears a training bra, she has buds & uses deodorant as well. Is that an issue maybe??

[quakerlady]

sensitivity

Okay, don't know if this will help right now, but it might give hope for the future...
I can distinctly recall a conversation I had with my dad when I was 8. I was laying on the counch feeling depressed and he noticed, asked what was bothering me. I told him I hated how ugly I was. (not that it matters why, but I was a VERY skinny little girl, people called me "Bones", not to be mean I think, even grownups. So when I looked in the mirror all I noticed was things related to being "too skinny"- my neck bones were very prominent, no curves anywhere. etc. I was also fairly nerdy or geeky, definitely not one of the cool kids, although no one actively mistreated me or anything.)
He was immediately shocked, puzzled, horrified,etc- told me I was beautiful. I told him- and firmly believed- that he HAD to think that, because he was my dad. After trying to explain my beauty to me and being rebuffed firmly he eventually gave up and withdrew from the conversation, his confusion and pain evident even to an 8 year old.
My belief in my unnattractiveness persisted through middle school, some of high school, but eventually I got over it. I eventually developed a thicker skin, and also more discernment about interpersonal stuff and what (and who) was important to me.
My parents persisted in telling me I wa beautiful, but it really took ME growing and learning to be able to deal with all the emotional stuff that hits hard in childhood. I had to overcome my extreme sensitivity to other people's opinions in my own way and in my own time.
So keep being your daughter's bedrock, but give her space to do her learning as long as she's not being bullied or asks for help or seems truly depressed. (The one thing I MIGHT fault my parents on was on not getting me professional help at my darkest point, but I did in fact live through and grow through those times, so maybe they were right that I didn't need it...)

[MrsMoe]

[mattemma04]

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[darlindeliasmom]

frand: I have totally been living through this for a few years...we keep the idea of homeschooling tucked away, because she really only has these problems at school. She worked through this stuff with her Little League team and the Brownies, has lots of church friends, but school is a landmine!

Of course, even doing that won't help since this problem is right in your backyard, so to speak!!

Like a pp, I was quite frustrated trying to go the other mom route...I'm friendly with them all, but I found it hard. I tend to be pretty up-front about my daughter's qualities, good AND bad. But I routinely found that other moms didn't want to hear that THEIR kid was at any way at fault.

I feel like I sound like a broken record, but in the book Living with the Active Alert Child (also known as the book that changed my life this summer ), the author talks about the "fluctuating self-esteem" exhibited by this child. My dd has said the same and worse things to me about herself...I wish she wasn't so "externally referenced"; that is, that she didn't rely so much on the environment and other people to tell her how she's doing. But she is.

We actually have times when we try meditation...she quiets her mind and tries to feel what Delia feels, not what other people are telling her she should feel. I also help her to act on the things in her personality that SHE can identify as barriers (like her VOLCANIC temper) and praise her for her own attempts to resolve these feelings in her mind. The reality is, I think, that your daughter may need to take a break from these girls...for weeks or years or forever, whatever it takes. So when she tries to reach out to other kids, be there to support her. It's funny, my dd has turned to the boys in her class for friendships as well.

Oh, and though your first response when kids are mean is to want to wring their little necks, or to cry, I've heard Barbara Colorosa say the most important message to send is that that behavior is unaccepatable and that your child deserves respect just for BEING. You need to turn at that moment and affirm her worth.

[frand]

Oh my gosh, all of you, thank you so much. You have no idea how much your supportive responses mean to me. Yesterday was an even rougher day. There was a lunchtime brownie meeting and dd said "I don't want to stay for Brownies." I asked her to give it a try and focus on the girls who are nice. Then after she left for school I called one of the leaders and asked her to keep an eye on whether any girls were excluding. She called me later and said one girl did 'bump' my daughter but it was an accident. After school dd was in tears and told me that when they sat down to eat, several girls told her she couldn't sit next to them, that the space was 'saved', and other girls wouldn't respond to her when she said 'hi'. She did a perfect, heartbreaking imitation of how they looked down at her lap out of the corner of their eye and said nothing. To top it off, after school her 'old' friend behind us had two friends over and when my daughter went to the fence to see what they were doing, this girl told my dd to get off her property. It is brutal and dd cried as she was falling asleep last night. I let her sleep with us in the big bed.

Later dd and I had a long talk. It's a very affluent community. We are not affluent-- we both made the decision to work alternating part-time schedules so we could both parent her, so we have 14 year old cars and a small, modest house. I think this is some of it since the mothers are not all that welcoming or inclusive. I hope I don't offend anyone when I say that most of the moms have a strong sorority mentality toward friendship and I think this is what their girls learn. It is also a small town so the joke is there are only two degrees of separation. Ceaseless gossip and competition. Lots of the current parents are people who grew up here and moved back, building million dollar plus homes.

So dd and I decided with heavy heart we have to move. Actually we'd just like to disappear overnight. We thought we were buying into a small community with great schools for our daughter but we never thought that being non-mainstream would carry such a heavy price for her. What good is a great school if your child is made to feel miserable there? As one friend said, education is what you make of it, not what's handed to you (she is advocating for us to get out). I too have considered homeschooling. I comfort myself -- to get through this-- with the knowledge that many artists and creative people came from isolated childhoods. In order to create, one needs to be capable of spending long hours alone. And dd is really creative, so I have enrolled her in a theater class, which she loves.

Interesting that some people mentioned their childrens' tempers. DD is very tempermental, but not in an overbearing way. But I like the suggestion that we talk about having to like yourself if you want people to like you and what you think you need to do to be able to like yourself?

You have all given me a lot to think about and I'd love continued feedback. I think a big part of this is where we live and being out of sync with the dominant values of the community (money, looks, status, educational competition). For those of you who have experienced snubbing with your own children, or were subject to it yourselves, do you think there are/were larger social issues like this outside of your control? My husband says, what if we move and it happens again? I say, it's still better than not moving and wondering if it would have been different.

Thank you all SO much and keep your comments coming. Right now I need it. I have never been so depressed.

[AndiG]

Frand, are there any other school options without moving? Could she be bussed to another school to start anew without having to physically uproot you and your family? That is a lot of pressure for you and your dp and perhaps there is another way? Is there a way for her to be in a different brownie troop than the one at her own school? Again, giving her a separate circle of friends...

I can understand how you feel about the sorrority mentality. I have felt like an outsider for a lot of my life.... As an adult I finally feel like I fit in with my friends and I'm very grateful for that.

You said:
"For those of you who have experienced snubbing with your own children, or were subject to it yourselves, do you think there are/were larger social issues like this outside of your control?"
I was snubbed, my daughter hasn't gotten there yet. and Yes, I definitely felt that there were larger issues at play... I was a white girl (WASP) in both of the predominantly mixed ethnic schools I attended up until grade 6. My best friend (who was half black) was more accepted by some of our African Canadian classmates than I was. I was also physically different, very tall and very thin. I was also very bright and was snubbed for being a geek. I could have acted less bright but that really wouldn't have helped me to like myself any more.

[frand]

AndiG-- Thanks so much for your input. The only school alternatives here are private schools which are very expensive and still with the same demographics (type A, competitive parents). There is just the school brownie troop, no alternatives. You are right, it is a major uprooting to move, which is why we've stayed as long as we have. But the night we made the offer on the house dh and I both had reservations about living in what we knew was a conservative, affluent town. We are not conservative, and not affluent. But damn the neighborhood was so clean and safe and the school, two blocks away, was top of the charts. Deep down I think we have known for awhile that we are not happy here, altho we have been really welcoming and friendly to everyone, especially children.

I just think we all need a fresh start where my daughter can start new without the stigma of overcoming being the outside girl. From every experience I have heard, the exclusion doesn't soften as girls move toward middle school, it gets worse. And I would love to have more moms around who are more down to earth, even a few who know what AP is and I don't mean Advanced Placement. And for my husband, a few dads who are actually interested in what he does (builds and restores guitars) instead of wondering, "how can you make a living doing that?"

Your perspective as an outsider is really interesting. It helps so much to hear from people who have been through it. But you were excluded for something to be proud of -- academic smarts. I can't figure out what my daughter is being excluded for other than girls following the lead of other girls who enjoy the power of being mean. I was an outsider as a young girl too and I actually liked it a lot of the time so I think I kind of self-created it. It felt like you had to give up too much of yourself to belong to a group ("don't wear red on Fridays..."). But I had four siblings so I had companionship and learned to deal with adverse relationships by the time I was in school, and I was tough emotionally (too tough). Dd doesn't have any siblings so she learns it all right at school raw and it's clear when she's hurt and that just seems to bring out to worst in some girls.

Soo I rambled but these boards are so cathartic and you are wonderful people.

[mattemma04]

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[ChristaN]

I just wanted to say that it is wonderful that you are listening to your dd and letting her know that you take her seriously. I remember telling my mom when I was 9 that I was depressed. Her response was, "no you're not. You don't know what it feels like to be depressed." I now understand that she didn't believe that children could be depressed, but at the time all I heard was that I wasn't going to be listened to or believed and I didn't talk to my parents anymore. I kept it inside until I developed an eating disorder and began attempting suicide in my teens. I'm doing really well now -- honestly!!

I just don't want my kids to go through what I did so I, like you, am doing everything that I can to make sure that they know that I hear them and support them. My older dd (age 7) has had some issues at school as well, although her friend problems haven't been as pronounced as what your dd is going through. Little girls can form cliques so young! Your poor kiddo is hearing other kids tell her that they don't like her and internalizing it -- making her feel that there must be something wrong with her. Moving is a big step, but if you are unhappy where you live it may be the right step.

Keep telling her that there is nothing wrong with her; the problem is with the other children and how they are treating her. Good luck in helping your little girl.

[mattemma04]

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