Any Radical Unschoolers Here? - Page 2

[mykdsmomy]

Linda, thanks for all the great explanations....I really am trying to learn more about this.....
An example for my comment about "treating your children like equals" I'm still trying to figure out how to put it into words....can I get back to you on that one?

But my question about letting them choose what they watch, wear, eat, etc.....what if they choose to watch something like Desperate Housewives when they're 10? What if they choose to open the fridge up and pick out pickles for dinner five nights in a row? What if they want to wear a leather mini skirt and tube top when we got out for grandma's dinner? PLEASE PLEASE know I'm asking you these things out of thinking out loud to my first response to this idea of radical homeschooling. I am VERY interested in it but Im also wanting to understand where the balance lies?
For instance....I was talking to a lady this morning who has a 15 year old who refuses to help out around the house, is always demanding her laundry clean, and who complains when dinner is not to her liking.....the mama told me...."all i can tell you, Judy is to be really strict with your kids because I wasnt and now i'm paying for it ) She was basically saying her kids were brats because she gave them what they wanted as kids.... :
I dont get it but i've heard it over and over again....set limits now, set boundries now or you'll pay later.....
Can you give me some feedback on this as it relates to radical unschooling? Thanks

[mykdsmomy]

OH and I kind of got off track with my post but I forgot to add .....


I was also just thinking... this is like saying, "We have to teach you that life is hard, so we're going to make life hard for you." Or, "Love can be painful. So we are going to set up a situation where someone courts then dumps you, so you can learn that love can be painful."

Put in a different context, it's not hard to see how utterly absurd and pointless it is to teach someone a "fact of life" by creating a situation solely for the purpose of them experiencing it.

ITA with you. My point was but if we are giving into their every want, and they DO get to a point in life where you are basically following someone's rules and boundaries....will they be ready for that? Will they have enough practice at being told no? I know we dont necessarily want our children to completly conform to society but we do want to equip them to deal with disappointments and rules they dont like.....does that make sense? I see what you're saying about life already being hard enough without us setting up mini scenarios for our kids to live out...that's not what I mean....I just mean, saying no to the candy or no, we're not having peanut butter tonight, we're having chicken...doesnt seem unreasonable or does it??? hmmmmm

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by mykdsmomy

what if they choose to watch something like Desperate Housewives when they're 10? What if they choose to open the fridge up and pick out pickles for dinner five nights in a row? What if they want to wear a leather mini skirt and tube top when we got out for grandma's dinner?

It wouldn't be a problem for my kids to choose/do any of those things. My 11 yr old has been watching CSI and Law and Order type shows for years. We tell them what any show might have in it (scary images perhaps, or sexual content) and then it's up to them. My son watches all sorts of stuff that I have no clue about.

We might tell them that a diet of pickles alone probably won't meet their bodies needs for long, but they still can choose it. They have been deciding what clothes to wear for ages now. My Dad used to grumble a bit about it (Dd is fond of some shirts that show her stomach and Ds likes baggy pants, no belt, shaggy hair..) but he figured out pretty quickly that these are not his choices to make, and if he wanted his grandkids to hang out with him he was going to have to mind his own business.

Can you give me some feedback on this as it relates to radical unschooling? Thanks

In my family there is respect all around. We respect the kids and they respect us. Dh and I respect each other, and the kids respect each other. There is give and take. Because no one in our home wants to live in a filthy house where garbage is everywhere and there are never clean dishes, we respectfully pitch in and do something to help.

Discussing why I did things was helpful when they were little. "I need to get the kitchen cleaned up so that it's ready for the next time we cook." or "I just have to throw some laundry in the washer before we go to the park so we can take showers later." Simple. I tried to convey the idea that work such as cleaning and cooking or whatever wasn't some terrible torture that one must be forced to.

It wouldn't be respectful for me to say "You must do the dishes now or you will be grounded for a week." (or whatever kind of punishments parents give? I have no clue.) It would be respectful for me to say "The dishes are dirty. Is someone available to do them/help me get them done?" In my experience, in an environment where no one has been forced to do dishes (or whatever) or had the idea that work is bad/to be avoided, getting things done with give and take is not a problem.

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by mykdsmomy

My point was but if we are giving into their every want, and they DO get to a point in life where you are basically following someone's rules and boundaries....will they be ready for that? Will they have enough practice at being told no?

My experience says yes, but I don't think it's a simple yes. Dealing with some rules, law, someone elses guidelines is part of being human in our society. Of course dealing with and following them aren't always the same thing. I've been a passenger in a car and chose not to wear a seatbelt, I drank some alcohol before I was 21, I snuck my own candy and drink into a movie theatre, etc. In each of those cases I clearly broke a rule or law and I had decided that I could live with the consequences should I get "busted".

My son was asked to stop running through the library when he was 6 by a staff member. He ran, he was told "Running is not allowed in the library. Please do not run here.", he stopped running. A neighbor asked my kids not to play on the edge of her lawn years ago (flowers there etc) and they stopped. My MIL told my daughter that she couldn't have cake before dinner when she was visiting my MIL. Dd said that she didn't appreciate that, couldn't abide by it and came home. Sometimes we decide that we can deal with rules and such, and sometimes we decide that we cannot.

My kids took Japanese and a journalism class last year. There were assignments, homework, classroom rules, and a teacher who was very much into being in charge. They did just fine because they decided that whatever the rules it was worth it to them somehow.

I see what you're saying about life already being hard enough without us setting up mini scenarios for our kids to live out...that's not what I mean....I just mean, saying no to the candy or no, we're not having peanut butter tonight, we're having chicken...doesnt seem unreasonable or does it???

For me? Mostly yes it would be....because it's just not necessary. There is no reason we can't have peanut butter tonight, and there is no reason you must have chicken even though you don't want it. I sure don't eat chicken if I don't want to.

[ShannonCC]

You guys are so inspiring

[RubyWild]

In the thread, "Are there any Unschoolers" or something like that, Lillian said that I was confusing TLC with Unschooling, which I readily have admitted in the past that I do.

Okay, so this is the thread where I got TLC confused with Unschooling. Some of you make it sound like these principles of TLC are part of unschooling or else I just can't parse it out. :

[SagMom]

Originally Posted by RubyWild

Okay, so this is the thread where I got TLC confused with Unschooling. Some of you make it sound like these principles of TLC are part of unschooling or else I just can't parse it out. :

In OUR family, it's all jumbled together, but they are two different things. TCS is a philosophy about children, unschooling is a philosophy about learning. You can tcs and not unschool and you can unschool and not tcs, or you can do both.

[RubyWild]

I guess what confuses those of us who are trying to understand what unschooling is that when people are describing themselves as radical unschoolers, it seems that to these people, unschooling + TLC = Radical unschooling, as if TLC is a part of the continuum, yet TLC wasn't mentioned until I brought it up. For example:

Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa

We are radical unschoolers. Well, from what I gather anyway
My kids choose their own media, foods, clothes, time spent on the computer, vocabulary, hair color etc. It's not about them being driven to having whatever they want always and everyone else's needs be damned, but rather about them being guided by parents who share info and opinion...and them being given the same respect I would want. We work stuff out.

Originally Posted by Dar

I've always considered myself a radical unschooler. I don't control my daughter's sugar inatke, tv watching, bedtimes, or anything else, except when it affects me (like throwing myself to the ground at her feet and demanding a turn on the computer, for example )

Originally Posted by Citymomx3

I think we followed many radical unschooling principles even before we started homeschooling. I'm only h/s one of my 3 kids, so I probably don't qualify right there but as far as the lifestyle? Yeah, I think it describes us a bit. I never felt the need to put limits on things like bedtime, tv, sweets, etc. I just never thought about it. My kids are 11, 9, and 4 and all of them are usually asleep before 10pm. My 11 y/o goes into bed at a very reasonable time (btw 9 and 10) and my other 2 usually fall asleep in the living room with dh and me. And even when in their own beds, they usually crawl in with us. No biggie.

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

Unschooling is about learning in a non-coercive self-directed environment. Radical unschooling is about applying the philosophy of freedom, trust in self, and validity of making one's own choices to all areas of life. These parents are talking about something else. If they're claiming that it falls under the banner of unschooling, I guess they're free to do so, but it doesn't make any actual sense.

So, it seems to me that the radical unschoolers are the ones who see TLC as part of Unschooling. I suppose they don't care about labels, but when I'm trying to see where I fit in, I'd at least like to correctly understand the labels so I can accept or reject the shoe as fitting or not fitting. I suppose that could be considered unsophisticated, in that we're expected to eschew labels, but I really am trying to understand and just when I think I do, I get confused. Now I'm beginning to think that it's not just me who is confused, or, at least, confusing.

[SagMom]

Originally Posted by RubyWild

So, it seems to me that the radical unschoolers are the ones who see TLC as part of Unschooling.

Maybe that's what separates unschooling from radical unschooling? I'm not really sure.

Until this thread, I've never called myself a "radical unschooler." I probably never will again, either. IRL, I usually don't even identify myself as an unschooler, because "homeschooling" is enough of a stretch for most people I know. The exception is when I'm talking with other hsers irl and we start to discuss methods. THEN I'll mention unschooling.

Similarly, with the tcs label, I don't usually use it, even though I believe in the ideas behind it. Lots of people have decided for themselves that tcs means something that I don't believe it does. I get tired of explaining over and over again about tcs only to have people insist that their interpretation is correct and tcs is therefore, neglectful or otherwise a bad idea.

Now that I think about it, I don't call myself "AP" either. I think I dislike using the lables outside of communities where people already know the definitions, if that makes sense. If I say, "I believe in tcs" and someone has already decided for themselves that that equals my kids running wild" then there's a strike against us already, yk? If otoh, I describe how we live, most people think it's pretty cool, even if it isn't for them.

But, since you brought it up, yes, tcs is part of our lifestyle, as is unschooling. It would seem silly to me, to allow my children to be in charge of their learning and then turn around and tell them they can't be in charge of what clothes they wear. But, that's just me. As I said, you can be one and not the other. I'm not sure if that answers your question or not--it almost sounds like you're asking others to label you. I'm not gonna touch that.

[RubyWild]

Originally Posted by Joan

I'm not sure if that answers your question or not--it almost sounds like you're asking others to label you. I'm not gonna touch that.

No, like I said, I just want to understand what the labels most generally mean.

[umbrella]

I think a lot of such things mentioned in the OP, would depend on the age of the child.

My oldest is 5. She needs her parents to help her ensure she gets plenty of rest. If she doesn't, we're ALL dealing with the consequences the next day. She doesn't just sleep in. However, when she's a little older, I really don't see the "harm" in letting them keep a schedule that suits thems, provided it fits reasonably with the rest of the family (sorry, can't have the tv on keeping the rest of the family awake). And even tonight, I let dd1 stay up later than usual because she wanted to, and tomorrow's plans are more forgiving of a slightly tired kid.

And I guess my first thought is that of course I regulate my child's tv time. But when I thought about it more. I suppose that on the extremely rare day that she has asked to watch The Sound of Music AND Marry Poppins, I've said yes sometimes. Yeah, that's a LOT of tv in one day, but eh, big deal every now and then. It's just that if you ask me if I'd allow that IF she wanted it everyday, I'd say no. But she doesn't ask that often.

So I suppose the reality is, she does end up regulating herself more that I was thinking. I guess it's just that I give the final nod of permission.

[KaraBoo]

Some consider me radical. Some don't.

For example, my child decides when and what to eat but is limited to what is in the house or what we can order in because she usually doesn't want to go out to eat and doesn't like to go shopping with me. I try to get things she will like and some new things to try. She isn't forced to go places she doesn't want to go. Of course, there are times when she chooses to go shopping but she has a choice.

Another example is that, in the evening, my husband has asked that we have time alone to watch movies and talk. We read books to my daughter, set her up with some food and drinks, turn on music and ask her to please give us this time. We leave our door open. She knows she can come in for hugs or ask for help getting more food but we would rather she let us have this time. It's important to my husband and for our marriage. But I don't force her to go to bed at a certain time. It's usually 8:30, 9 or 9:30 when we all head back to her room to begin this routine. She comes into our bed sometime during the night or the morning and sleeps as late as she likes.

This works for now and it may change as time passes. We are all open to change

[cottonwood]

Ruby, I'm confused too

Were you quoting me as one example of TCS + unschooling = radical unschooling, or were you using it for evidence that none of us can agree with each other? :LOL

It's a good question, but I think we could go round and round and probably never come to a concensus about whether a relationship between TCS and radical unschooling is necessary, or if they are in fact actually the same thing.

In any case, I think that the scenario described by the OP -- that of a child making demands and the parent doing whatever the child wants regardless of how it affects the parent or others -- is not TCS anymore than it is unschooling.

As for us, we unschool *and* our kids make their own choices about things like bedtime, food, clothes, and just about anything else that is non-critical for us to be involved with, but we are *not* TCS, at least as far as I understand it.

[cottonwood]

Originally Posted by mykdsmomy

For instance....I was talking to a lady this morning who has a 15 year old who refuses to help out around the house, is always demanding her laundry clean, and who complains when dinner is not to her liking.....the mama told me...."all i can tell you, Judy is to be really strict with your kids because I wasnt and now i'm paying for it ) She was basically saying her kids were brats because she gave them what they wanted as kids....

No, her kids are brats because she behaved in a way that rewarded her kids for treating her badly.

I dont get it but i've heard it over and over again....set limits now, set boundries now or you'll pay later.....

This is true. But to be effective it has to make sense, it can't be arbitrary. You have to know what your goal is, and base your limits and boundaries on that. Setting limits and boundaries just to set limits and boundaries is stupid and unjust. If I say "no" for no good reason, all it does is embitter my children because they know it is arbitrary and unjust.

[cottonwood]

My point was but if we are giving into their every want, and they DO get to a point in life where you are basically following someone's rules and boundaries....will they be ready for that? Will they have enough practice at being told no? I know we dont necessarily want our children to completly conform to society but we do want to equip them to deal with disappointments and rules they dont like.....does that make sense?

But who said we were "giving into their every want"? I already pointed out that there are plenty of natural and necessary "no"s already. It seems like you're saying those are not enough, that kids must be made to also get used to being denied for no good reason so they can deal with being denied for no good reason when they are grown up. But that was what my example of the absurdity of created scenarios was meant to address. It feels like we're going around in circles, maybe I'm not understanding what you're really wanting to know?

I just mean, saying no to the candy or no, we're not having peanut butter tonight, we're having chicken...doesnt seem unreasonable or does it???

It's unreasonable if there's not a good reason for it, yes.

[cottonwood]

our kids make their own choices about things like bedtime, food, clothes

I thought it might be helpful to elaborate on why we (my husband and I) do this.

We have observed, in ourselves and others, that when people have their choices continually made for them, they become neurotic and internalize the belief that it's actually not okay for them to make their own choices. Obviously this can be debilitating. Their ability to determine what their actual needs are may even eventually atrophy. I see both these things happening, for instance, in women's relationships to their bodies and their reliance on "experts" to tell them how to give birth.

We want our children to self-regulate when possible so that they can become strong in themselves. When you are always telling someone that they cannot decide for themselves something even as unimportant and inconsequential as what clothing they put on their bodies, that sends a subtle message -- every day, building up over and over until it is ingrained in them so deeply that they don't even think to question it -- that they are lacking insight or intelligence, that they are not to be trusted, that these things are important when they really aren't, that they are inherently followers, that "might makes right" is okay.

We don't think they need practice getting used to "no" -- we don't want them to get used to "no". We don't want them to take for granted that other people are right just because they say they are, and that we have to do what they want us to just because they say we do. We want them to always expect to be given a good reason for "no", and to know they have a right to it. This is ethical, but it's also protective. The less likely they are to accept "just because I said so," the less likely they are to be abused and taken advantage of.

We do think they need practice listening to their inner voice. We want them to make decisions based on logic they understand, on value they perceive, and on conscience above all.

We have observed that when given true freedom and when free from neurosis and able to obtain adequate information (and assuming we're not talking about a chemical dependancy that can't be psychologically controlled,) people will always make choices that are best for them, but that when restricted or denied, people often act out of a desire to rebel or out of confusion rather than in service to their true needs.

When I hear about kids who can't self-regulate in healthy ways, it amazes me that the parents' only response, usually, is to enforce greater control over them rather than trying to figure out why they're doing this unhealthy thing. If my kid wants to [insert unhealthy action] all day every day for the rest of his life in spite of the fact that it's making him sick, well, that is not the result of a healthy environment. There's something going on there other than that he just likes the thing. Banning might work, temporarily, that is until he grows up. But what then, when the original reasons for the behavior have never been addressed, and the ban has only fostered his obsession with it?

My husband grew up in a fairly strict household. I grew up with a lot of judgement. We both are still struggling with separating out the false and arbitrary from the true and relevant, and with overcoming our irrational compulsions and lack of initiative and confidence that are a direct result of someone else having their thumb on us at all times while we were growing up.

That is what we want our children to be free of.

[mykdsmomy]

Linda very well said! Your ideas/theories/applications make perfect sense.

But who said we were "giving into their every want"? I already pointed out that there are plenty of natural and necessary "no"s already.

I guess I didnt understand what you meant by necessary "no's".? can you give me examples of what kind of things you say no to?

I honestly am not trying to argue with you at all.....on the contrary...just trying to understand more about radical unschooling. I come from a family where this style of parenting is OPPOSITE to my mother's "style" of parenting...hers was very very very very very (did i mention very?) controlling and abusive.....this is fascinating to me....thanks for all the clarification...

[sunshinegal]

: - all that fourlittlebirds and UnshoolnMa said!!

For me it was realizing that I needed my children to make their own choices and really find out who they are, even if that means they do things that I don't like. I would rather they find out now, instead of having some sort of mid life crisis and needing years of therapy to "find themselves" because they have been conforming for years to someone elses standard.


Let me tell you that being "radical unschoolers" doesn't mean I run around the city all day fullfilling my childrens desires. They understand that I have desires as well and they respect that. Sometimes its one of those nights of intense and long discussions, but I learn a lot about myself and my family.

One example is soccer. Both my older kids wanted soccer. They preferred the travel team with longer practices and more games. But because of their age difference, they would be on 2 different teams and DH and I wouldn't be able to see all the games and there is the expense of driving around the state. So we discussed this with the kids and we decided that the town recreational league would suit all of us.

I also felt it was about time I started to respect my own needs instead of putting everyone elses in front. IMO, kids learn very quickly by our example.

I am not as articulate as the previous folks, but I hope this helps.

[cottonwood]

I honestly am not trying to argue with you at all.....on the contrary...just trying to understand more about radical unschooling.

I understand.

I guess I didnt understand what you meant by necessary "no's".? can you give me examples of what kind of things you say no to?

Well, when I say that they are "necessary", I mean (like I said before) that they can't do them for reasons of legality, developmental ability, or safety. I'll add to that things I won't allow them to do because it makes things hard or unpleasant for others.

Anyway, sure. (Keep in mind that I usually try to phrase these things so that I don't actually have to use the word "no", although of course it is implied, and I usually follow up with other options. Keep in mind also that most of these are age-specific.)

-No you can't play in the laundry detergent.
-No you can't have turkey for lunch, we need to save it so that papa has something to take for lunch tomorrow.
-No you can't keep your seat belt unfastened, it's dangerous and we could get a ticket for it.
-No we can't go to Joe and Kate's house today, they are busy.
-No you can't play Sonic DX because I have a headache and you will not play quietly.
-No I can't take you on a walk down to the river right now, I need to get dinner started so we can eat before bedtime.
-No you can't play in the street.
-No you can't use my permanent markers to draw on the wall.
-No you can't use the X-acto knife.
-No you cannot all jump on the trampoline with the baby.
-No you cannot go over to the church to play alone.
-No you cannot run and yell in the library.
-No you cannot play on the library computer past your allotted time, even though it is a stupid rule.
-No you can't drive the car.
-No you cannot come hang out with me in the bathroom while I'm going poo.
-No you cannot eat the cookies that I've made to take to the potluck.
-No you can't drive grandpa's tractor by yourself, even if he thinks it's safe.
-No you can't go with me to the party, it's just for moms.
-No you can't have that mega-Lego set, we don't have the money right now.
-No you can't stay home alone.
-No you can't have the rest of my ice cream.
-No it's not okay to hit your brother even though he was being a jerk.
-No you can't go to work with papa.
-No I don't feel like playing UNO with you right now.
-No you can't watch Spongebob at top volume for three hours straight.
-No you can't play this game, it's a text game and you don't know how to read yet.
-No you can't go down the slide by yourself, it puts you in deep water and you can't swim yet.

I could go on and on and on...

[MyLittleWonders]

First of all, this thread is awesome!!! Thanks Mykidsmomy for asking so many questions, and thank you for the radical unschooling mamas for being so cool and answering so thoroughly! I have learned an amazing amount. And Linda, your responses are so dang eloquent and make so much sense. I want my dh to read this.

Now for my quesiton though: Ds#1 is 4 years old. He is pretty much unschooled for preK. Some days he'll say, "I gotta do some homework!" and I give him a workbook to play with. He takes the lead, even if that means reading Magic School Bus a zillion times a day. :LOL But, he is also a TV junkie (my fault - I was a latch-key kid, and TV was my company after school). My thinking is if I gave him free reign with the TV, he'd literally watch it from the time he got up until the time Dad got home from work and we ate dinner. He LOVES TV!!! Granted, all he has to choose from is PBS Kids and videos (taped Magic School Bus, Leap Frog, Dora, etc), but still ... that is a lot of TV.

Would he eventually get it out of his system, or would this set him up as an unproductive child? Now in his defense, he did just turn off the TV because Jakers! ended, and he and his little brother are outside digging in the mud. But, that was at like 4:30 ... (oh we've been watching a lot of TV lately because I am unbelievably tired).

So my question is: how does free choice of TV look? If your child is choosing to watch the entire day's programming of PBS Kids, do you just let them do it (assuming it's not impacting others in the family)? Do you just go about doing other "cool" stuff with other siblings and if he wants to join in, let him? I just see many, many hours of TV viewing ...