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Alternative and Complementary Medicine Archive
Soy based diet in boys?
This topic was originally posted in this forum: Alternative and Complementary Medicine
Author Topic: Soy based diet in boys?
Barb
Member posted 08-09-2000 07:42 AM
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I have a 12 month old boy who drinks soy milk instead of cows milk. I have had people ask and wonder myself if this is going to effect my boys body, hormones, life in the long run. Does anyone have experience with this and do you know of any studies which I may refer to.
Thank you for your time and information.
Penny
Member posted 08-09-2000 11:57 AM
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Good question. My dh saw a 20/20 several weeks ago that stated that using soy decreased brain development and that it was not a good idea to use soy. My son is lactose intolerant so we have stayed on the soy formula and I am really scared that it is doing him harm. I never thought about posting this question but I am glad that you did. I hope someone responds.
SJane
Moderator posted 08-09-2000 01:37 PM
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I (up until yesterday) worked for Whole Foods Market, who considers themselves to be a sort of watchdog for those types of misleading reports. According to the research the company did, the 20/20 article was only testing one type of soy on one type of person ( I believe it was middle aged asian men, or something along those lines) and there was no control group or scientific or medical experts. Now, I didn't see the show, but the Whole Foods PR people didn't feel it was even necessary to put out a press release in argument about the show because it was such a bogus study and was funded by some biased groups. This is all I know, and its mostly hear-say from work, but I wouldn't worry about soy. That's my opinion anyway Of course it could just be that Whole Foods is more concerned about money then people... but then that's my bias speaking...
bellesmom
Member posted 08-09-2000 04:45 PM
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If I were you, I'd stop watching 20/20. It's definately worse for you than soy. These are the same folks who recently broadcast a report in which some "experts" claimed that organic produce was bad for people b/c bacteria can live on it. Do you know anyone who has died of food poisoning from vegis? And the reason bacteria won't live on non-organic produce is that it's poisonous! Asian cultures have lived on soy for hundreds of years, and the health benefits are astounding. Cows milk would be much more harmful for your boy than soy. I am convinced that the meat/dairy industry and the big time producers of conventional produce are beginning to feel a threat to their profit margins and that's why the wave of negative reports.
DOWN WITH TV!
JoAnn Farb
Member posted 08-14-2000 01:14 PM
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As there continue to be more studies coming to light which [i] supposedly [i/] cast doubts upon the safety of soy....
I was just wondering, are these studies being done with genetically modified soy? I sort of doubt that researchers doing lab animal experiments are going out of there way to procure organic soy products for their studies....
JoAnn Farb http://www/compassionatesouls.com
Cynthia in Arabia
Moderator posted 08-14-2000 03:28 PM
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That's an excellent point JoAnn and I'd love to find out. I will ask around and hope you can do the same!
~Cynthia
theosmom
Member posted 08-15-2000 10:57 PM
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I heard something related to this: that there was a report (I heard it secondhand) that too much soy in your diet when pregnant could affect a baby boy's development, in this case a slightly misplaced urethral opening was being blamed. Anyone have any info on this?
dara
Member posted 08-16-2000 08:41 AM
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There is a much more compelling report in Discover Aug 2000 that addresses all of the dangers of cow's milk. It's a well documented article with much more valid studies than 20/20's. As for soy formula, I think it may be better to get organic milk based formula. it takes a ton of chemical to get it to a suitable state for babies.
KelpaLeen
Member posted 08-25-2000 02:06 PM
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Regarding genetically engineered soy -- well that scares me to death. Even products labeled "organic" do not necessarily mean that they do not contain genetically engineered substances, though some of the organic certifications are including it in their criteria. A huge percentage of the soy crop is currently genetically engineered. I would urge you to pick a product, and research it for GE. I am curious, however, why this discussion always sounds like it is cows milk vs. soy. What about neither?
Sherri
Member posted 08-26-2000 11:42 PM
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We drink rice milk, or only organic cow milk. My youngest & myself are both allergic to both soy & cow milk, & years ago I did alot of research on the problems soy causes in myself. I did find estimates that over 90% of soy crops are GE, and the GE increased estrogen levels and changed the type of estrogen. Another source claimed that all soy in USA is GE, & some small amount of pure soy were available in asia, but pure crops were disappearing fast. Alot of new evidence is also coming out re. the dangers of 'modern' soy. Try dr. mercola's site for a recent article (mercola.com) w/ links to more info.
When I consume soy, I grow breast cysts. At first I didn't relate this or my other probs to soy & docs couldn't understand how such a large 'lump' could completely disaapear in 24 hrs. One doc advised me to greatly increase soy to try to balance my hormones, which turned out to be the worst advise. Started producing milk, became engourged, then abcessed. And this was from 2 days of drinking organic soy milk. Since eliminating most of the soy from my diet (it's impossible to eliminate all) many of my health probs also are gone.
Just something to think about...
SJane
Moderator posted 08-27-2000 06:13 PM
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I'd like to know where you got that information about all soy being GEed. I find that extremly hard to believe, even being as cynical as I am about modern labeling and such. And there was a recent measure passed that all organics cannot be GE'ed. It was quite recent, but I was part of that campaign, so I do know that it passed.
Please let me know where I can read more.
Thanks
Cynthia in Arabia
Moderator posted 08-29-2000 09:12 AM
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I've also heard the statement that almost 90% of America's soy crops are GEed though I'd be hard put to finger the source. I wouldn't be surprised if such information is coming from the dairy and meat industry.
~Cynthia
Barb
Member posted 08-29-2000 10:21 AM
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In response to KelpaLeen "why is it a choice between cows milk or soy?" I don't know. I do know a women whoose children are allergic to soy and they do rice milk. I would do rice milk except that it is not fortified like soy milk and I guess, as a new mother, I am afraid that my son will not get the calcium etc. that he needs even with suppliments. I would love to talk with some moms who have GROWN children who did not eat cows milk and what their experience was.
SAHMIam
Member posted 08-29-2000 10:22 AM
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What about goat's milk? I can get it but my little guy doesn't like the taste.
Is the Discover 2000 article on line somewhere?
luke
Member posted 08-29-2000 08:02 PM
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Barb
I have a two year old boy that has been on soy products.. some formula, milk, and soy foods for the past two years. (obviously when suitable) He began talking with a vocabulary well over 400 words at one years of age and now at the age of two can speak better than most three year olds that we know.
I just am contributing this information because I keep hearing how soy inhibits brain development in children. I am the only person in my group of friends here in NJ that uses soy milk and soy foods (tofu, soy dogs, soy ice cream, etc.. ) everyone else is dairy moms. My son has better brain development than mostly all the kids he is with AND those moms are always asking me why is he so smart. (they joke with me and tell me he belongs in a genius play group)
I also had a roomate in college (a boy ) that grew up on soy milk. (This is how I learned about it) and he is fine health wise and hormonally.
So, I just do not know why everyone is out to destroy the soy interest we have. I would not be afraid or hesitant to use soy products. It is definately better than what they do to cows milk.
The only concern you might have that is really worth worrying about is when your child reaches school and they serve only cows milk.. if you do not have your child bring in soy milk.. you may want to have your child be introduced to cows milk sometime before school to avoid any milk allergy.
Luke
I am a nutritionist if this helps you any.
chrisziggy
Member posted 08-30-2000 11:00 PM
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my doc, who is VERY wholistic minded told us that soy, like everything else that becomes a fad and cash crop in this country is being WAY over used and incorrectly. he recommended that (in addition to nursing long term) we use almond mylk actually, and oat milk, rather than soy (or rice even), and to use soy sparingly and in fermented form such as miso (the fermentation process does something to help the toxic propeties of soy, can't remember off thet op of my head now). i have an article he gave me that i can scan for anyone who is interrested. feel free to e-mail me.
and i've heard that soy is one of if not the most genetically modified crop in the world http://www.soyinfo.com/haz/gehaz.shtml http://www.netlink.de/gen/home.html
*smile*
chris
Cynthia in Arabia
Moderator posted 08-31-2000 05:47 AM
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The articles, mentioned by Sherri, at mercola.com (just do a search of soy and you'll find several articles)
are very informative and seemingly balanced in their attitude. I'm sure there are some vested interests out
there that find benefit in bad-mouthing soy products. But perhaps the truth is that we are misusing soy. The
Asian populations that use soy do so in a very different way than we Americans do. Soy is becoming such a
highly processed and denatured food in its various forms - soy dogs, UHT treated soy milk, soy infant
formula, soy cheese, soy mayonnaise, soy almost everything! - that I can't imagine we are getting the
healthful benefit from it that the Asians do who, by the way, eat very small amounts of it.
I don't think "everyone's out to destroy the soy interest we have". I think there is a founded fear in that our
overuse and misuse of soy will be shown to be harmful. Some people feel the responsibility to warn of
danger before too much damage is done. I use soy much like the Asians do and occasionally drink soy
milk, but I don't believe it should be fashioned into a replacement for all the things I shouldn't otherwise be
eating. Soy seems to be beneficial in moderation when as unprocessed and natural as possible and that is
true of almost all foods.
True, what they do to cow's milk to turn it into a beverage and into formula for infants is pretty awful. But I
don't believe what they do to soy beans to produce the soy protein isolate, the main ingredient in infant soy
formula, is a suitable substitute (Read the article "Concerns Regarding Soybeans" at mercola.com). Babies
are meant to have mother's milk and though it may sound distasteful to us today mother's of long ago
sought out wet nurses if they were unable to breastfeed. This still occurs in some societies though less
so due to western infant formula influence. Perhaps it seems impossible in today's world to bring back such
a practice but it's just another item on the list of how "denatured" we are becoming as a society and as a
people. Rather than do what is most natural and healthful we devise substitutes in the other direction.
Cynthia in Arabia
Moderator posted 08-31-2000 05:52 AM
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chrisziggy your doc has some support behind his advice of nut milk. There is a deep history of seed and nut milks being given to babies and young children. I'm not sure the reasoning behind it as it seems they breastfed. Perhaps they began giving it to them as they did other foods. Anyway, it sounds good to me as a beverage and is free from the processing if you make it at home. Very easy to make too.
~Cynthia
KelpaLeen
Member posted 08-31-2000 03:10 PM
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Wow, Cynthia in Arabia. Great post. I think you said what I wanted to say when I simply blasted "why is it always soy vs. milk? how about neither?" though I was too frustrated to express myself as eloquently as you have. People who eat a generally whole food diet seem to jump onto soy in any mutilated form it can be manufactured in. I think the world has gotten carried away with it. You really hit the nail on the head when you mentioned people look to these products as a substitute for products they realize they should not be eating (like tofu pups vs. hot dogs). My generation (I am 41) was raised on gallons of milk. So now, people jump over to soy milk because they can't really break the milk habit. I don't use either fluid as a beverage and neither does my son. I have both organic cows milk (mostly for baking) and various soy products in my house that I use in moderation as part of a whole foods diet. But giving kids quantities of soy milk seems to me to be as misguided as giving kids quantities of cows milk. This is all just my opinion, and I am sure people will disagree with me, but I wanted to jump in and support Cynthia as she did such a great job expressing my thoughts!
Barb
Member posted 08-31-2000 04:31 PM
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WOW! So much to think about. It never occured to me that soy is being overused. I have not eaten meat in 15 years and LOVE the soy products that replace other foods, like pepperoni for my pizza and dogs for my chili. I also had no idea that so much soy is genetically modified.
But back to the real question - If I reduce the amount of soy milk and bring in nut milk and do not use cheese where is my child getting his calcium - I mean thats a lot of broccoli to try and stuff down his throat.
chrisziggy
Member posted 08-31-2000 07:21 PM
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here ya go barb!
*smile*
chris http://www.healthatoz.com/atoz/osteo/osmilk.asp
MILK ISN’T THE ONLY ANSWER:
NON-DAIRY SOURCES OF CALCIUM
Calcium occurs in most plant and animal matter, and is essential for the formation and maintenance of strong bones and teeth. Calcium also helps to regulate the heartbeat and is necessary for blood clotting. When most people think of calcium food sources, they think of milk and other dairy products. But there are many other non-dairy foods that are rich in calcium too. Our chart below lists over 80 non-dairy choices for calcium, including many different types of beans, grains, nuts and seeds, vegetables, and seafood. To see how much calcium you need, check the recommended amount of calcium for your age and sex in our osteoporosis diary. Suggestion: Print this page and take it with you when you go shopping.
Beans
Food Source
Serving Size
Calcium (mg)
Azuki beans
One cup, boiled
63
Baked beans, canned
One cup
128
Black beans
One cup, boiled
47
Black turtle beans
One cup
103
Butter beans, canned
One cup
40
Cranberry beans
One cup, boiled
89
French beans
One cup, boiled
111
Great Northern beans
One cup, boiled
121
Kidney beans
One cup, boiled
50
Lima beans
One cup, boiled
32
Mung beans
One cup, boiled
55
Navy beans
One cup, boiled
128
Pink beans
One cup, boiled
88
Pinto beans
One cup, boiled
82
Refried beans, canned
One cup
188
Soy beans
One cup, boiled
175
White beans
One cup, boiled
161
White beans, small
One cup, boiled
131
Winged beans
One cup, boiled
244
Yellow beans
One cup, boiled
110
Grains
Food Source
Serving Size
Calcium (mg)
Instant Oatmeal
One packet
163
Taco Shell
One shell
16
White Bread
One slice
16
Whole Wheat Bread
One Slice
18
Nuts and seeds
Food Source
Serving Size
Calcium (mg)
Almonds
24 (dried)
75
Brazil Nuts
8 (dried)
50
Carob Flour
One cup
359
Pistachios
38 (dried)
38
Sesame seeds
One Tbsp
10
Sunflower seeds
1oz (dried)
33
Seafood
Food Source
Serving Size
Calcium (mg)
Canned Salmon
3oz
150
Canned Sardines (w/ bones)
6
250
Oysters
One cup
195
Vegetables and greens
Food Source
Serving Size
Calcium (mg)
Acorn squash
Half cup, baked
45
Butternut squash
Half cup
42
Beet Greens
Half cup
82
Blackeyed peas
One cup
42
Broccoli, raw
Half cup
21
Cabbage, green, raw
Half cup, boiled
25
Cabbage, red, raw
Half cup, boiled
28
Cardoon
3.5oz, boiled
72
Carrots, raw
One medium
19
Carrots
Half cup, boiled
24
Cabbage, Chinese
Half cup, boiled
79
Chickpeas
One cup, boiled
80
Chickory greens, raw
Half cup
90
Collards
One cup, boiled
148
Dandelion greens
Half cup, boiled
73
Fuki (butterbur)
3.5 oz, boiled
79
Garlic, raw
3 cloves
16
Kale
Half cup, boiled
47
Mustard greens
Half cup, boiled
52
Parsley, raw
Half cup
39
Pigeon peas
One cup
72
Spinach, raw
Half cup, boiled
122
Turnip greens, raw
Half cup
53
Watercress, raw
Half cup
20
Other non-dairy sources
Food Source
Serving Size
Calcium (mg)
Agar, raw
3.5oz
2
Agar, dried
3.5oz
625
Amaranth
One cup, boiled
138
Burdock root
One cup, boiled
62
Cauliflower, raw
Half cup, boiled
17
Cassava, raw
3.5oz
91
Chives, raw
One Tbsp
2
Figs, raw
One, medium
18
Figs, dried
10 figs
269
Hummus
One cup
124
Irish moss, raw
3.5oz
72
Kelp, raw
3.5oz
168
Laver (nori), raw
3.5oz
70
Lupines
One cup, boiled
85
Molasses, Barbados
One Tbsp
49
Molasses, blackstrap
One Tbsp
137
Molasses, light
One Tbsp
33
Molasses, medium
One Tbsp
58
Natto
Half cup
191
Orange Juice (fortified)
12oz
40
Okra
Half cup
50
Papaya, raw
One medium
72
Rhubarb, frozen, raw
One cup
266
Tempeh
Half cup
75
Tofu, raw, firm
Half cup
258
References
Pennington, Bowes and Church. Food Values of Portions Commonly Used. Lippincott, Williams and Wilkins; 1997.
U.S. Food and Drug Administration
Also of interest:
Vitamin Therapy in Osteoporosis
Osteoporosis caregiver resources
Preventing falls in the elderly
Osteoporosis Pain Management: Acupuncture
Osteoporosis Pain Management: Massage
And don’t forget these articles in the Osteoporosis forum:
What is Osteoporosis?
Risk Factors for Osteoporosis
Diagnostic Tests for Osteoporosis
Treatments for Osteoporosis
How to prevent bone loss
Self-care strategies for coping with osteoporosis
Back to Osteoporosis Home Page
Sources
National Osteoporosis Foundation
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition
American Dietetic Association
Mayo Clinic Health Letter
National Institute on Aging
Prevention Magazine
"The Essential Guide to Vitamins and Minerals," by Elizabeth Somer (Harper Collins, 1996
chrisziggy
Member posted 08-31-2000 07:22 PM
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sorry i didn't mean for that to be a mile long post! *LOL*
*smile*
chris
Barb
Member posted 08-31-2000 09:19 PM
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Thank you chrisziggy. This is exactly why I posted this forum to find good information and broaden my nutritional knowledge.
SJane
Moderator posted 09-01-2000 07:03 AM
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There was an article about GE food in the july/august issue of New Age journal. It also lists the website www.mothers.com where you can get a 20 page consumer action kit about genetic engineering.
[This message has been edited by SJane (edited 09-01-2000).]
SJane
Moderator posted 09-01-2000 10:11 AM
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Sorry- it's www.mothers.org!!!
luke
Member posted 09-01-2000 02:56 PM
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Cynthia in Arabia
I was not suggesting to go crazy with soy products and since you quoted me it seems as if you were lumping me into this category.
I was just trying to help ease Barb's mind about soy affecting boys. I just feel soy is a beneficial food and do not find it respectful for you to take my quote and suggest all we eat is manufactured and processed soy foods.
You quoting me bothered me because I turn to Mothering for SUPPORT and for whatever reason it may be.. you did not have to use me in your feelings.
Luke
chrisziggy
Member posted 09-01-2000 03:21 PM
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we support ya luke! i don't know cynthia or anything but i don't think it was intended that way
have a great day and know ya aren't gettin' picked on!
*smile*
chris
Sherri
Member posted 09-02-2000 01:13 AM
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This forum is not only about support, but also for ideas, at least thats why I read these boards. And the only reason I posted my reactions to soy & info re. the Mercola site is to share ideas w/ others I trust. If you notice strange symptoms in your son, maybe think about the soy... but if your son is healthy & thriving, why change anything. When I had increased my soy intake, I FELT GREAT! I had incredible energy, & my concentration & memory was perfect. But I grew cysts, so I stopped.
Everybody reacts to different foods differently. And some people react to soy foods more strongly than others. I'd bet many people could eat GE foods w/out having any probs also. I don't know if I react because of GEing or becuz my hormones are so messed-up (too many years of mainstream docs & meds, and the pill... b4 I knew better), or just a plain-old allergy. My moms been eating soy for many years & she's so healthy & looks 50 yrs old (she's 65). I'd never tell her to stop eating soy, but I told her of my probs w/ it.
Everyone's body reacts differently, so a mom's job is to just be aware, I think.
Cynthia in Arabia
Moderator posted 09-02-2000 03:46 AM
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Luke,
Gosh I hope you don't feel push away! I'm so sorry that my inclusion of your comments in my post offended you. I genuinely apologize for any hurt you feel. My intention was to address the subjects that you mentioned, not wag my finger. Quoting just helps readers to understand where I'm coming from in my post
rather than scroll back and forth between the messages.
I didn't mean to accuse you personally of eating nothing but manufactured and processed soy. Actually, I think I used the terms "we" and "we Americans". I was addressing a national phenomena not your personal
choices. Your post just happened to be a catalyst for my thoughts. And also bear in mind that we moderators voluntarily serve the Mothering boards but when we post opinions we do not represent Mothering in doing so. We are merely Moms contributing our thoughts and info to the discussions.
Cynthia
luke
Member posted 09-02-2000 11:57 AM
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Thanks so much for clearing that up. Guess I got a little defensive on that. I just took it personally when I read it.
Luke
bellesmom
Member posted 09-02-2000 08:54 PM
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While I still stand by my feelings that soy is getting an unfair bad rap in the mainstream press (along with organic produce), I want to thank you all for making me think about the way I use it. I am definately using processed soy foods as "comfort" food--I come from a long line of seriously bad eaters who think hot dogs are a great source of protien and couldn't go a week without some kind of fried hamburger, etc. I think unprocessed soy is a good source of protien and fat, and I love it, so I don't see myself cutting it out anytime soon, but I certainly don't intend to have Annabelle drink soy as a beverage--I don't believe babies/children need milk besides mama's. My husband has recently tried giving up soy entirely to see if it's causing a body rash he's had for the past year--he tried cutting out dairy (and we've since become vegan--at least ALMOST!) and wheat, but that didn't do it. Has anyone heard of soy causing an allergic rash? Also, SHERRI--I have had a couple of cysts for several months, and I was wondering if you know for sure that the soy was causing yours? Did they go away when you stopped using it? I don't have any reaction to soy that I know of, but when I read your post, I thought hmmmm... The cysts I have are a couple of small, pea-sized raised knots on my shoulder.
Anyway, thanks everyone for keeping the dialogue kind but honest!
kellyts@netzero.net
Member posted 09-04-2000 02:00 PM
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Uh- can anyone stand one more opinion? This is about calcium. Rice Dream is fortified w/calcium and vitaminb12 and vitamin d(which is in cows milk). The amount of calcium in a 8 oz glass of rice dream is = to one glass of milk. Also one cup of yogurt(go organic free range,like brown cow) has enough calcium for a grown womans rda so a child should be fine?
Mollasses is a great source of calcium. Take a Tbl spoon and mix w/applesauce. Heat and use as "syrup" on waffles or whatever. Also mix w/ your favorite jam. Put on toast.
There are lots of ways (yummy) to incorporate mollasses into childs diet. Lovekel
Alternative and Complementary Medicine Archive
Soy based diet in boys?
This topic was originally posted in this forum: Alternative and Complementary Medicine
Author Topic: Soy based diet in boys?
Barb
Member posted 08-09-2000 07:42 AM
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I have a 12 month old boy who drinks soy milk instead of cows milk. I have had people ask and wonder myself if this is going to effect my boys body, hormones, life in the long run. Does anyone have experience with this and do you know of any studies which I may refer to.
Thank you for your time and information.
Penny
Member posted 08-09-2000 11:57 AM
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Good question. My dh saw a 20/20 several weeks ago that stated that using soy decreased brain development and that it was not a good idea to use soy. My son is lactose intolerant so we have stayed on the soy formula and I am really scared that it is doing him harm. I never thought about posting this question but I am glad that you did. I hope someone responds.
SJane
Moderator posted 08-09-2000 01:37 PM
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I (up until yesterday) worked for Whole Foods Market, who considers themselves to be a sort of watchdog for those types of misleading reports. According to the research the company did, the 20/20 article was only testing one type of soy on one type of person ( I believe it was middle aged asian men, or something along those lines) and there was no control group or scientific or medical experts. Now, I didn't see the show, but the Whole Foods PR people didn't feel it was even necessary to put out a press release in argument about the show because it was such a bogus study and was funded by some biased groups. This is all I know, and its mostly hear-say from work, but I wouldn't worry about soy. That's my opinion anyway Of course it could just be that Whole Foods is more concerned about money then people... but then that's my bias speaking...
bellesmom
Member posted 08-09-2000 04:45 PM
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If I were you, I'd stop watching 20/20. It's definately worse for you than soy. These are the same folks who recently broadcast a report in which some "experts" claimed that organic produce was bad for people b/c bacteria can live on it. Do you know anyone who has died of food poisoning from vegis? And the reason bacteria won't live on non-organic produce is that it's poisonous! Asian cultures have lived on soy for hundreds of years, and the health benefits are astounding. Cows milk would be much more harmful for your boy than soy. I am convinced that the meat/dairy industry and the big time producers of conventional produce are beginning to feel a threat to their profit margins and that's why the wave of negative reports.
DOWN WITH TV!
JoAnn Farb
Member posted 08-14-2000 01:14 PM
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As there continue to be more studies coming to light which [i] supposedly [i/] cast doubts upon the safety of soy....
I was just wondering, are these studies being done with genetically modified soy? I sort of doubt that researchers doing lab animal experiments are going out of there way to procure organic soy products for their studies....
JoAnn Farb http://www/compassionatesouls.com
Cynthia in Arabia
Moderator posted 08-14-2000 03:28 PM
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That's an excellent point JoAnn and I'd love to find out. I will ask around and hope you can do the same!
~Cynthia
theosmom
Member posted 08-15-2000 10:57 PM
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I heard something related to this: that there was a report (I heard it secondhand) that too much soy in your diet when pregnant could affect a baby boy's development, in this case a slightly misplaced urethral opening was being blamed. Anyone have any info on this?
dara
Member posted 08-16-2000 08:41 AM
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There is a much more compelling report in Discover Aug 2000 that addresses all of the dangers of cow's milk. It's a well documented article with much more valid studies than 20/20's. As for soy formula, I think it may be better to get organic milk based formula. it takes a ton of chemical to get it to a suitable state for babies.
KelpaLeen
Member posted 08-25-2000 02:06 PM
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Regarding genetically engineered soy -- well that scares me to death. Even products labeled "organic" do not necessarily mean that they do not contain genetically engineered substances, though some of the organic certifications are including it in their criteria. A huge percentage of the soy crop is currently genetically engineered. I would urge you to pick a product, and research it for GE. I am curious, however, why this discussion always sounds like it is cows milk vs. soy. What about neither?
Sherri
Member posted 08-26-2000 11:42 PM
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We drink rice milk, or only organic cow milk. My youngest & myself are both allergic to both soy & cow milk, & years ago I did alot of research on the problems soy causes in myself. I did find estimates that over 90% of soy crops are GE, and the GE increased estrogen levels and changed the type of estrogen. Another source claimed that all soy in USA is GE, & some small amount of pure soy were available in asia, but pure crops were disappearing fast. Alot of new evidence is also coming out re. the dangers of 'modern' soy. Try dr. mercola's site for a recent article (mercola.com) w/ links to more info.
When I consume soy, I grow breast cysts. At first I didn't relate this or my other probs to soy & docs couldn't understand how such a large 'lump' could completely disaapear in 24 hrs. One doc advised me to greatly increase soy to try to balance my hormones, which turned out to be the worst advise. Started producing milk, became engourged, then abcessed. And this was from 2 days of drinking organic soy milk. Since eliminating most of the soy from my diet (it's impossible to eliminate all) many of my health probs also are gone.
Just something to think about...
SJane
Moderator posted 08-27-2000 06:13 PM
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I'd like to know where you got that information about all soy being GEed. I find that extremly hard to believe, even being as cynical as I am about modern labeling and such. And there was a recent measure passed that all organics cannot be GE'ed. It was quite recent, but I was part of that campaign, so I do know that it passed.
Please let me know where I can read more.
Thanks
Cynthia in Arabia
Moderator posted 08-29-2000 09:12 AM
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I've also heard the statement that almost 90% of America's soy crops are GEed though I'd be hard put to finger the source. I wouldn't be surprised if such information is coming from the dairy and meat industry.
~Cynthia
Barb
Member posted 08-29-2000 10:21 AM
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In response to KelpaLeen "why is it a choice between cows milk or soy?" I don't know. I do know a women whoose children are allergic to soy and they do rice milk. I would do rice milk except that it is not fortified like soy milk and I guess, as a new mother, I am afraid that my son will not get the calcium etc. that he needs even with suppliments. I would love to talk with some moms who have GROWN children who did not eat cows milk and what their experience was.
SAHMIam
Member posted 08-29-2000 10:22 AM
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What about goat's milk? I can get it but my little guy doesn't like the taste.
Is the Discover 2000 article on line somewhere?
luke
Member posted 08-29-2000 08:02 PM
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Barb
I have a two year old boy that has been on soy products.. some formula, milk, and soy foods for the past two years. (obviously when suitable) He began talking with a vocabulary well over 400 words at one years of age and now at the age of two can speak better than most three year olds that we know.
I just am contributing this information because I keep hearing how soy inhibits brain development in children. I am the only person in my group of friends here in NJ that uses soy milk and soy foods (tofu, soy dogs, soy ice cream, etc.. ) everyone else is dairy moms. My son has better brain development than mostly all the kids he is with AND those moms are always asking me why is he so smart. (they joke with me and tell me he belongs in a genius play group)
I also had a roomate in college (a boy ) that grew up on soy milk. (This is how I learned about it) and he is fine health wise and hormonally.
So, I just do not know why everyone is out to destroy the soy interest we have. I would not be afraid or hesitant to use soy products. It is definately better than what they do to cows milk.
The only concern you might have that is really worth worrying about is when your child reaches school and they serve only cows milk.. if you do not have your child bring in soy milk.. you may want to have your child be introduced to cows milk sometime before school to avoid any milk allergy.
Luke
I am a nutritionist if this helps you any.
chrisziggy
Member posted 08-30-2000 11:00 PM
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my doc, who is VERY wholistic minded told us that soy, like everything else that becomes a fad and cash crop in this country is being WAY over used and incorrectly. he recommended that (in addition to nursing long term) we use almond mylk actually, and oat milk, rather than soy (or rice even), and to use soy sparingly and in fermented form such as miso (the fermentation process does something to help the toxic propeties of soy, can't remember off thet op of my head now). i have an article he gave me that i can scan for anyone who is interrested. feel free to e-mail me.
and i've heard that soy is one of if not the most genetically modified crop in the world http://www.soyinfo.com/haz/gehaz.shtml http://www.netlink.de/gen/home.html
*smile*
chris
Cynthia in Arabia
Moderator posted 08-31-2000 05:47 AM
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The articles, mentioned by Sherri, at mercola.com (just do a search of soy and you'll find several articles)
are very informative and seemingly balanced in their attitude. I'm sure there are some vested interests out
there that find benefit in bad-mouthing soy products. But perhaps the truth is that we are misusing soy. The
Asian populations that use soy do so in a very different way than we Americans do. Soy is becoming such a
highly processed and denatured food in its various forms - soy dogs, UHT treated soy milk, soy infant
formula, soy cheese, soy mayonnaise, soy almost everything! - that I can't imagine we are getting the
healthful benefit from it that the Asians do who, by the way, eat very small amounts of it.
I don't think "everyone's out to destroy the soy interest we have". I think there is a founded fear in that our
overuse and misuse of soy will be shown to be harmful. Some people feel the responsibility to warn of
danger before too much damage is done. I use soy much like the Asians do and occasionally drink soy
milk, but I don't believe it should be fashioned into a replacement for all the things I shouldn't otherwise be
eating. Soy seems to be beneficial in moderation when as unprocessed and natural as possible and that is
true of almost all foods.
True, what they do to cow's milk to turn it into a beverage and into formula for infants is pretty awful. But I
don't believe what they do to soy beans to produce the soy protein isolate, the main ingredient in infant soy
formula, is a suitable substitute (Read the article "Concerns Regarding Soybeans" at mercola.com). Babies
are meant to have mother's milk and though it may sound distasteful to us today mother's of long ago
sought out wet nurses if they were unable to breastfeed. This still occurs in some societies though less
so due to western infant formula influence. Perhaps it seems impossible in today's world to bring back such
a practice but it's just another item on the list of how "denatured" we are becoming as a society and as a
people. Rather than do what is most natural and healthful we devise substitutes in the other direction.
Cynthia in Arabia
Moderator posted 08-31-2000 05:52 AM
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chrisziggy your doc has some support behind his advice of nut milk. There is a deep history of seed and nut milks being given to babies and young children. I'm not sure the reasoning behind it as it seems they breastfed. Perhaps they began giving it to them as they did other foods. Anyway, it sounds good to me as a beverage and is free from the processing if you make it at home. Very easy to make too.
~Cynthia
KelpaLeen
Member posted 08-31-2000 03:10 PM
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Wow, Cynthia in Arabia. Great post. I think you said what I wanted to say when I simply blasted "why is it always soy vs. milk? how about neither?" though I was too frustrated to express myself as eloquently as you have. People who eat a generally whole food diet seem to jump onto soy in any mutilated form it can be manufactured in. I think the world has gotten carried away with it. You really hit the nail on the head when you mentioned people look to these products as a substitute for products they realize they should not be eating (like tofu pups vs. hot dogs). My generation (I am 41) was raised on gallons of milk. So now, people jump over to soy milk because they can't really break the milk habit. I don't use either fluid as a beverage and neither does my son. I have both organic cows milk (mostly for baking) and various soy products in my house that I use in moderation as part of a whole foods diet. But giving kids quantities of soy milk seems to me to be as misguided as giving kids quantities of cows milk. This is all just my opinion, and I am sure people will disagree with me, but I wanted to jump in and support Cynthia as she did such a great job expressing my thoughts!
Barb
Member posted 08-31-2000 04:31 PM
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WOW! So much to think about. It never occured to me that soy is being overused. I have not eaten meat in 15 years and LOVE the soy products that replace other foods, like pepperoni for my pizza and dogs for my chili. I also had no idea that so much soy is genetically modified.
But back to the real question - If I reduce the amount of soy milk and bring in nut milk and do not use cheese where is my child getting his calcium - I mean thats a lot of broccoli to try and stuff down his throat.
chrisziggy
Member posted 08-31-2000 07:21 PM
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here ya go barb!
*smile*
chris http://www.healthatoz.com/atoz/osteo/osmilk.asp
MILK ISN’T THE ONLY ANSWER:
NON-DAIRY SOURCES OF CALCIUM
Calcium occurs in most plant and animal matter, and is essential for the formation and maintenance of strong bones and teeth. Calcium also helps to regulate the heartbeat and is necessary for blood clotting. When most people think of calcium food sources, they think of milk and other dairy products. But there are many other non-dairy foods that are rich in calcium too. Our chart below lists over 80 non-dairy choices for calcium, including many different types of beans, grains, nuts and seeds, vegetables, and seafood. To see how much calcium you need, check the recommended amount of calcium for your age and sex in our osteoporosis diary. Suggestion: Print this page and take it with you when you go shopping.
Beans
Food Source
Serving Size
Calcium (mg)
Azuki beans
One cup, boiled
63
Baked beans, canned
One cup
128
Black beans
One cup, boiled
47
Black turtle beans
One cup
103
Butter beans, canned
One cup
40
Cranberry beans
One cup, boiled
89
French beans
One cup, boiled
111
Great Northern beans
One cup, boiled
121
Kidney beans
One cup, boiled
50
Lima beans
One cup, boiled
32
Mung beans
One cup, boiled
55
Navy beans
One cup, boiled
128
Pink beans
One cup, boiled
88
Pinto beans
One cup, boiled
82
Refried beans, canned
One cup
188
Soy beans
One cup, boiled
175
White beans
One cup, boiled
161
White beans, small
One cup, boiled
131
Winged beans
One cup, boiled
244
Yellow beans
One cup, boiled
110
Grains
Food Source
Serving Size
Calcium (mg)
Instant Oatmeal
One packet
163
Taco Shell
One shell
16
White Bread
One slice
16
Whole Wheat Bread
One Slice
18
Nuts and seeds
Food Source
Serving Size
Calcium (mg)
Almonds
24 (dried)
75
Brazil Nuts
8 (dried)
50
Carob Flour
One cup
359
Pistachios
38 (dried)
38
Sesame seeds
One Tbsp
10
Sunflower seeds
1oz (dried)
33
Seafood
Food Source
Serving Size
Calcium (mg)
Canned Salmon
3oz
150
Canned Sardines (w/ bones)
6
250
Oysters
One cup
195
Vegetables and greens
Food Source
Serving Size
Calcium (mg)
Acorn squash
Half cup, baked
45
Butternut squash
Half cup
42
Beet Greens
Half cup
82
Blackeyed peas
One cup
42
Broccoli, raw
Half cup
21
Cabbage, green, raw
Half cup, boiled
25
Cabbage, red, raw
Half cup, boiled
28
Cardoon
3.5oz, boiled
72
Carrots, raw
One medium
19
Carrots
Half cup, boiled
24
Cabbage, Chinese
Half cup, boiled
79
Chickpeas
One cup, boiled
80
Chickory greens, raw
Half cup
90
Collards
One cup, boiled
148
Dandelion greens
Half cup, boiled
73
Fuki (butterbur)
3.5 oz, boiled
79
Garlic, raw
3 cloves
16
Kale
Half cup, boiled
47
Mustard greens
Half cup, boiled
52
Parsley, raw
Half cup
39
Pigeon peas
One cup
72
Spinach, raw
Half cup, boiled
122
Turnip greens, raw
Half cup
53
Watercress, raw
Half cup
20
Other non-dairy sources
Food Source
Serving Size
Calcium (mg)
Agar, raw
3.5oz
2
Agar, dried
3.5oz
625
Amaranth
One cup, boiled
138
Burdock root
One cup, boiled
62
Cauliflower, raw
Half cup, boiled
17
Cassava, raw
3.5oz
91
Chives, raw
One Tbsp
2
Figs, raw
One, medium
18
Figs, dried
10 figs
269
Hummus
One cup
124
Irish moss, raw
3.5oz
72
Kelp, raw
3.5oz
168
Laver (nori), raw
3.5oz
70
Lupines
One cup, boiled
85
Molasses, Barbados
One Tbsp
49
Molasses, blackstrap
One Tbsp
137
Molasses, light
One Tbsp
33
Molasses, medium
One Tbsp
58
Natto
Half cup
191
Orange Juice (fortified)
12oz
40
Okra
Half cup
50
Papaya, raw
One medium
72
Rhubarb, frozen, raw
One cup
266
Tempeh
Half cup
75
Tofu, raw, firm
Half cup
258
References
Pennington, Bowes and Church. Food Values of Portions Commonly Used. Lippincott, Williams and Wilkins; 1997.
U.S. Food and Drug Administration
Also of interest:
Vitamin Therapy in Osteoporosis
Osteoporosis caregiver resources
Preventing falls in the elderly
Osteoporosis Pain Management: Acupuncture
Osteoporosis Pain Management: Massage
And don’t forget these articles in the Osteoporosis forum:
What is Osteoporosis?
Risk Factors for Osteoporosis
Diagnostic Tests for Osteoporosis
Treatments for Osteoporosis
How to prevent bone loss
Self-care strategies for coping with osteoporosis
Back to Osteoporosis Home Page
Sources
National Osteoporosis Foundation
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition
American Dietetic Association
Mayo Clinic Health Letter
National Institute on Aging
Prevention Magazine
"The Essential Guide to Vitamins and Minerals," by Elizabeth Somer (Harper Collins, 1996
chrisziggy
Member posted 08-31-2000 07:22 PM
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sorry i didn't mean for that to be a mile long post! *LOL*
*smile*
chris
Barb
Member posted 08-31-2000 09:19 PM
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Thank you chrisziggy. This is exactly why I posted this forum to find good information and broaden my nutritional knowledge.
SJane
Moderator posted 09-01-2000 07:03 AM
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There was an article about GE food in the july/august issue of New Age journal. It also lists the website www.mothers.com where you can get a 20 page consumer action kit about genetic engineering.
[This message has been edited by SJane (edited 09-01-2000).]
SJane
Moderator posted 09-01-2000 10:11 AM
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Sorry- it's www.mothers.org!!!
luke
Member posted 09-01-2000 02:56 PM
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Cynthia in Arabia
I was not suggesting to go crazy with soy products and since you quoted me it seems as if you were lumping me into this category.
I was just trying to help ease Barb's mind about soy affecting boys. I just feel soy is a beneficial food and do not find it respectful for you to take my quote and suggest all we eat is manufactured and processed soy foods.
You quoting me bothered me because I turn to Mothering for SUPPORT and for whatever reason it may be.. you did not have to use me in your feelings.
Luke
chrisziggy
Member posted 09-01-2000 03:21 PM
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we support ya luke! i don't know cynthia or anything but i don't think it was intended that way
have a great day and know ya aren't gettin' picked on!
*smile*
chris
Sherri
Member posted 09-02-2000 01:13 AM
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This forum is not only about support, but also for ideas, at least thats why I read these boards. And the only reason I posted my reactions to soy & info re. the Mercola site is to share ideas w/ others I trust. If you notice strange symptoms in your son, maybe think about the soy... but if your son is healthy & thriving, why change anything. When I had increased my soy intake, I FELT GREAT! I had incredible energy, & my concentration & memory was perfect. But I grew cysts, so I stopped.
Everybody reacts to different foods differently. And some people react to soy foods more strongly than others. I'd bet many people could eat GE foods w/out having any probs also. I don't know if I react because of GEing or becuz my hormones are so messed-up (too many years of mainstream docs & meds, and the pill... b4 I knew better), or just a plain-old allergy. My moms been eating soy for many years & she's so healthy & looks 50 yrs old (she's 65). I'd never tell her to stop eating soy, but I told her of my probs w/ it.
Everyone's body reacts differently, so a mom's job is to just be aware, I think.
Cynthia in Arabia
Moderator posted 09-02-2000 03:46 AM
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Luke,
Gosh I hope you don't feel push away! I'm so sorry that my inclusion of your comments in my post offended you. I genuinely apologize for any hurt you feel. My intention was to address the subjects that you mentioned, not wag my finger. Quoting just helps readers to understand where I'm coming from in my post
rather than scroll back and forth between the messages.
I didn't mean to accuse you personally of eating nothing but manufactured and processed soy. Actually, I think I used the terms "we" and "we Americans". I was addressing a national phenomena not your personal
choices. Your post just happened to be a catalyst for my thoughts. And also bear in mind that we moderators voluntarily serve the Mothering boards but when we post opinions we do not represent Mothering in doing so. We are merely Moms contributing our thoughts and info to the discussions.
Cynthia
luke
Member posted 09-02-2000 11:57 AM
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Thanks so much for clearing that up. Guess I got a little defensive on that. I just took it personally when I read it.
Luke
bellesmom
Member posted 09-02-2000 08:54 PM
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While I still stand by my feelings that soy is getting an unfair bad rap in the mainstream press (along with organic produce), I want to thank you all for making me think about the way I use it. I am definately using processed soy foods as "comfort" food--I come from a long line of seriously bad eaters who think hot dogs are a great source of protien and couldn't go a week without some kind of fried hamburger, etc. I think unprocessed soy is a good source of protien and fat, and I love it, so I don't see myself cutting it out anytime soon, but I certainly don't intend to have Annabelle drink soy as a beverage--I don't believe babies/children need milk besides mama's. My husband has recently tried giving up soy entirely to see if it's causing a body rash he's had for the past year--he tried cutting out dairy (and we've since become vegan--at least ALMOST!) and wheat, but that didn't do it. Has anyone heard of soy causing an allergic rash? Also, SHERRI--I have had a couple of cysts for several months, and I was wondering if you know for sure that the soy was causing yours? Did they go away when you stopped using it? I don't have any reaction to soy that I know of, but when I read your post, I thought hmmmm... The cysts I have are a couple of small, pea-sized raised knots on my shoulder.
Anyway, thanks everyone for keeping the dialogue kind but honest!
kellyts@netzero.net
Member posted 09-04-2000 02:00 PM
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Uh- can anyone stand one more opinion? This is about calcium. Rice Dream is fortified w/calcium and vitaminb12 and vitamin d(which is in cows milk). The amount of calcium in a 8 oz glass of rice dream is = to one glass of milk. Also one cup of yogurt(go organic free range,like brown cow) has enough calcium for a grown womans rda so a child should be fine?
Mollasses is a great source of calcium. Take a Tbl spoon and mix w/applesauce. Heat and use as "syrup" on waffles or whatever. Also mix w/ your favorite jam. Put on toast.
There are lots of ways (yummy) to incorporate mollasses into childs diet. Lovekel
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