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post #141 of 181
Quote:
I do not know one woman who had a hospital birth (including myself) who made a truly informed decision. I know women who think they did but they are mistaken. All the info needs to be out there and easily available to everyone. How can you weigh the risk and benifits when you don't truly know what they are?
I've read over this entire thread, but I can't get over this. Do you honestly believe that women who think they've made an informed decision which culminated in a hospital birth are all mistaken? Seriously?! That's got to be one of the most judgemental, obnoxious things that I've ever read. Just because they came to a different conclusion from yours, they're mistaken? But you couldn't possibly be wrong, could you, there's no way that anyone would choose a hospital birth after truly knowing what the risks and benefits are. Please.

Do I think it's unethical to choose a hospital birth? Absolutely not. I think it's sad that most women don't have the resources to make a different decision, and that's certainly unethical but who's really to blame-- doctors, schools, television, the government? We can blame everyone but ourselves for this (because we are never wrong, we know what's best for everyone), can't we?

The biggest ethical crisis I see when it comes to birth is people who decide that they are activists because they had homebirths. I think that if the way pregnancy and childbirth are typically managed in this country is, by your own standard, unethical then it is at least as unethical for you to fail in your duty: diseminating information to those who need it, and helping women to make truly informed decisions. It's damn near impossible for most "birth activists" to listen long enough to find out what's needed, and that's really depressing to me.

Is the c-section rate "too high" at your local hospital? Why is that? Who can change it, if not the patients? Hospitals are businesses, they're out to make money and if women demand a different standard of care from them, they will get it. Is homebirth safer than hospital birth? Under what circumstances? Why don't people know this, and what can be done to change it? What circumstances would, in your mind, justify or necessitate obstetrical care? Why and when? If that's not consistant with real life, then do something to change it.

I think that these discussions are unethical, and I think that they're a step backwards for most people. They don't help people to make changes in their communities, and they don't foster a sense of community with other women who are in different situations but need the same information (i.e. they're pregnant). They cause the divide to grow wider-- people who believe that homebirth is the only possible informed decision retreat farther from the mainstream (and, thus, from the women who need to learn about their positions) than ever, and people who believe that hospital birth can be, in some/many/all circumstances a perfectly reasonable, informed choice are made to feel, once again, that they are irresponsible/immoral/unethical/generally rotten people. Irony of ironies, it's the women who are willing to consider the possibility that hospital birth might be warranted who are the most likely to change things in the birthing culture of America. How? By listening, by paying attention, by bringing things to the attention of the medical establishment from which homebirthers have so thorough disaffected themselves.

Doesn't that upset you enough to want to change things?
post #142 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by eilonwy
I've read over this entire thread, but I can't get over this. Do you honestly believe that women who think they've made an informed decision which culminated in a hospital birth are all mistaken? Seriously?! That's got to be one of the most judgemental, obnoxious things that I've ever read. Just because they came to a different conclusion from yours, they're mistaken? But you couldn't possibly be wrong, could you, there's no way that anyone would choose a hospital birth after truly knowing what the risks and benefits are. Please.

Do I think it's unethical to choose a hospital birth? Absolutely not. I think it's sad that most women don't have the resources to make a different decision, and that's certainly unethical but who's really to blame-- doctors, schools, television, the government? We can blame everyone but ourselves for this (because we are never wrong, we know what's best for everyone), can't we?

The biggest ethical crisis I see when it comes to birth is people who decide that they are activists because they had homebirths. I think that if the way pregnancy and childbirth are typically managed in this country is, by your own standard, unethical then it is at least as unethical for you to fail in your duty: diseminating information to those who need it, and helping women to make truly informed decisions. It's damn near impossible for most "birth activists" to listen long enough to find out what's needed, and that's really depressing to me.

Is the c-section rate "too high" at your local hospital? Why is that? Who can change it, if not the patients? Hospitals are businesses, they're out to make money and if women demand a different standard of care from them, they will get it. Is homebirth safer than hospital birth? Under what circumstances? Why don't people know this, and what can be done to change it? What circumstances would, in your mind, justify or necessitate obstetrical care? Why and when? If that's not consistant with real life, then do something to change it.

I think that these discussions are unethical, and I think that they're a step backwards for most people. They don't help people to make changes in their communities, and they don't foster a sense of community with other women who are in different situations but need the same information (i.e. they're pregnant). They cause the divide to grow wider-- people who believe that homebirth is the only possible informed decision retreat farther from the mainstream (and, thus, from the women who need to learn about their positions) than ever, and people who believe that hospital birth can be, in some/many/all circumstances a perfectly reasonable, informed choice are made to feel, once again, that they are irresponsible/immoral/unethical/generally rotten people. Irony of ironies, it's the women who are willing to consider the possibility that hospital birth might be warranted who are the most likely to change things in the birthing culture of America. How? By listening, by paying attention, by bringing things to the attention of the medical establishment from which homebirthers have so thorough disaffected themselves.

Doesn't that upset you enough to want to change things?


And I am a homebirth activist, radical type. ITA with this post! Passionate and well written. Magnifico.
post #143 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by eilonwy
I've read over this entire thread, but I can't get over this. Do you honestly believe that women who think they've made an informed decision which culminated in a hospital birth are all mistaken? Seriously?! That's got to be one of the most judgemental, obnoxious things that I've ever read. Just because they came to a different conclusion from yours, they're mistaken? But you couldn't possibly be wrong, could you, there's no way that anyone would choose a hospital birth after truly knowing what the risks and benefits are. Please.
First off thanks for calling me obnoxious, nice. Secondly if you would have read my post w/o judging you could have clearly seen I was talking about the women I know, not ALL women. Most women I know who had hospital births didin't think about it at all and those that did didn't think to look into any alternatives to a hospital birth, only looked into what procedures are done and if they wanted them. THAT IS MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. NO WHERE DID I SAY MY EXPERIENCE WAS UNIVERSAL.
post #144 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheacoby
What is unethical is the fact we aren't getting the truth. The medical establishment does not give us all the facts, they actually give us very few. Women are not making informed decisions because it's pretty hard in this culture to become informed. I do not know one woman who had a hospital birth (including myself) who made a truly informed decision. I know women who think they did but they are mistaken. All the info needs to be out there and easily available to everyone. How can you weigh the risk and benifits when you don't truly know what they are?
Taking things out of context and then putting your spin on it is also quite obnoxious! This how I see it, if you have experienced something different then post about it but you don't have to knock me personally or try to discredit my experiences.
post #145 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheacoby
First off thanks for calling me obnoxious, nice. Secondly if you would have read my post w/o judging you could have clearly seen I was talking about the women I know, not ALL women.
And if you had read mine, you would have noted that it was the *statement* that I referred to as obnoxious, and not you. Yes, you did say "all the women that I know (not most, as you later assert)" but you went on in other posts to assert that you believe that no woman would ever choose a hospital birth if they made a truly informed decision. It was an attack on your position, not your character.

Quote:
Most women I know who had hospital births didin't think about it at all and those that did didn't think to look into any alternatives to a hospital birth, only looked into what procedures are done and if they wanted them. THAT IS MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. NO WHERE DID I SAY MY EXPERIENCE WAS UNIVERSAL.
You strongly imply that your experience is, if not universal, the norm. Either way, I don't see it as a helpful statement to make. It strikes me, personally, as devisive and counterproductive. I'm sorry if I wasn't more clear about that, but I was posting at 3 in the morning with a screaming baby on my lap. I'll try to be more careful in the future.
post #146 of 181
Can I remind you all to please keep this conversation within the parameters of the UA.
post #147 of 181
I changed ALL to MOST because I realized later that I haven't actually talked about this issue with ALL the women I know. Most of them but not all. So the ones I have discussed it with do fall into the category I already mentioned.
I think you are wanting to read more into my post than what is actually there. I didn't strongly imply anything, that's all you. I'm not exactly sure why you have called my post out to be most offended by and I'm pretty sure you are not among the women I know, so my post have nothing personally to do with you. If you really took in everything I was expressing you'd have realized I don't fault women for not being informed our birthing culture sets it up to be hard for us to be. I even included myself among the uninformed.
I never said there are no informed women who who birth in hospitasl but I do believe a lot of informed women choose home births. That however does not mean if an informed woman chooses a hospital birth she can't truly be informed.

Bottom line this is how I feel
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheacoby
All the info needs to be out there and easily available to everyone.
post #148 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mamma Mia
Allow me to quote myself as well.

I am confused. Are we supposed to do some circle-dance here or something where we just keep quoting eachother into infinity?
post #149 of 181
Quote:
people who believe that homebirth is the only possible informed decision retreat farther from the mainstream (and, thus, from the women who need to learn about their positions) than ever,
well stated
post #150 of 181
Quote:
Taking things out of context and then putting your spin on it is also quite obnoxious! This how I see it, if you have experienced something different then post about it but you don't have to knock me personally or try to discredit my experiences.
Once again, I never "knocked you personally." Nor did I try to discredit your experiences-- what I said was that the statement "I know women who think that they made informed decisions but they're wrong" was obnoxious. It would have been more fair and perhaps more accurate to say that it was extremely judgemental, but at three a.m. it just felt like a slap in the face. I felt sorry for all the women you were lumping together with that statement, and it just felt very, very wrong. Once again, I apologize if you misunderstood, but I was absolutely not making any attacks on your character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheacoby
I think you are wanting to read more into my post than what is actually there. I didn't strongly imply anything, that's all you. I'm not exactly sure why you have called my post out to be most offended by and I'm pretty sure you are not among the women I know, so my post have nothing personally to do with you.
Who says I took it personally? I'm sorry, but that statement was very judgemental and was extremely offensive to me, but not on a personal level-- I felt offended for all women. It really sounded like you were saying that it's absolutely impossible for a woman to be truly informed and educated and still decide to birth in a hospital. You did say later that it wouldn't necessarily be unethical for a woman to make that decision if they were informed, but went on to reiterate that most women aren't making informed decisions.

Quote:
If you really took in everything I was expressing you'd have realized I don't fault women for not being informed our birthing culture sets it up to be hard for us to be. I even included myself among the uninformed.
I never said there are no informed women who who birth in hospitasl but I do believe a lot of informed women choose home births. That however does not mean if an informed woman chooses a hospital birth she can't truly be informed.
What you said was:

Quote:
  • "I don't think many women are actually making an informed decision , is that unethical I'm not sure."
  • "I think a lot of women make their birthing decisions based on fear and not facts."
  • "My issue is that very few women are actually making informed choices....Why do a lot of women feel safer in the hospital, why do many believe the hospital is safer? Why do so many women let doctors choose for them?"
In short, we're not actually disagreeing on the fundamental problem, which is one of information. I never said that we were. For the last time, I said that one statement that you made struck me as obnoxious. I don't think that I'm reading too much into that, it just came across as extremely rude to me. I did not make any assertions about your character, or even about the rest of your posts, just that one statement. I'm through apologizing about it. I already said that I could have chosen my words better, and quite frankly I think that you could have done the same. That's all. Who's blowing things out of proportion?
post #151 of 181
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eilonwy
Once again, I never "knocked you personally." Nor did I try to discredit your experiences-- what I said was that the statement "I know women who think that they made informed decisions but they're wrong" was obnoxious.
Allow me to put my take in here. I think what she was saying is that the women that SHE knows who had a hospital birth and thought that they made informed choices did not, in fact, make informed choices. I could say the same thing. The women that I know personally who chose hospital birth think that they made informed choices. I know that they did not as they did not look at any non-hospital birth information. Now, I know that MANY women that birth in the hospital DO make an informed choice to be there. I simply do not know any of them in real life. I also think that, at least in this area, they are not the norm.

-Angela
post #152 of 181
I apologize, I wasn't agreeing with the personal stuff, but the main point of the post. I should have narrrowed my quotes a bit.
post #153 of 181
Quote:
Is the c-section rate "too high" at your local hospital? Why is that? Who can change it, if not the patients? Hospitals are businesses, they're out to make money and if women demand a different standard of care from them, they will get it. Is homebirth safer than hospital birth? Under what circumstances? Why don't people know this, and what can be done to change it? What circumstances would, in your mind, justify or necessitate obstetrical care? Why and when? If that's not consistant with real life, then do something to change it.
Women need to vote with their feet, by taking them out of the stirrups, walking out of the maternity wards and staying home to labor.

I was born at home, 7 of my 8 sibs were, and my 4 children were.

I am a rabid homebirth advocate, yet I know after working for thirty years in this area and watching midwife after midwife be arrested for things doctors would line up for miles and to defend a fellow collegue from.

The problem in this country is that we have a culture bias in favor of medical intervention.
post #154 of 181

mama mia

was your last post for me? If so, what did you mean by personal attacks? Just curious
post #155 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by alegna
Allow me to put my take in here. I think what she was saying is that the women that SHE knows who had a hospital birth and thought that they made informed choices did not, in fact, make informed choices. I could say the same thing. The women that I know personally who chose hospital birth think that they made informed choices. I know that they did not as they did not look at any non-hospital birth information. Now, I know that MANY women that birth in the hospital DO make an informed choice to be there. I simply do not know any of them in real life. I also think that, at least in this area, they are not the norm.

-Angela
Thank you, that IS what I was saying. I know the women I know do NOT represent all or even most women.
eilonwy, thank you for saying your weren't knocking my character because it did feel like it. I do think we mostly agree.
post #156 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunRayeMomi
was your last post for me? If so, what did you mean by personal attacks? Just curious
I agreed with a lot of what eilonwy said, but not the part that was personally directed. That's what I was referring to. I'm hoping I haven't made you feel like I've attacked you. It was never my intent.
post #157 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by alegna
Allow me to put my take in here. I think what she was saying is that the women that SHE knows who had a hospital birth and thought that they made informed choices did not, in fact, make informed choices. I could say the same thing. The women that I know personally who chose hospital birth think that they made informed choices. I know that they did not as they did not look at any non-hospital birth information. Now, I know that MANY women that birth in the hospital DO make an informed choice to be there. I simply do not know any of them in real life. I also think that, at least in this area, they are not the norm.

-Angela
Angela, ITA with you here.
post #158 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mamma Mia
I agreed with a lot of what eilonwy said, but not the part that was personally directed. That's what I was referring to. I'm hoping I haven't made you feel like I've attacked you. It was never my intent.

No no of course not I think I was just losing the thread of the conversation for a minute
post #159 of 181
I am young, un-informed compared to the knowledge and info you all have. But I can't see how having a baby in a hospital could be unethical, immoral. Isn't it about choice, to choose to have a child where you want to,when you want to,if you want to.

It is a little similiar to the pro-choice/prolife debate.when I have told people I am pro-choice they have asked how i could be for abortion.I am not pro- abortion,I am just for a women's right to choose.It is her choice...it is not, to me, a matter of ethics or morality.To me it would be immoral to judge.

I am not sure where I will have my baby,home,hospital,birthing center. But where ever I do it will be an informed decision I make and not something I feel I should do based on the moral views of others.
post #160 of 181
Thread Starter 
You make good points. I am also pro-choice. I believe that LEGALLY women should have the right to choose abortion. I also believe that LEGALLY women should have the right to choose to birth in a hospital. HOWEVER, there are situations where I believe abortion is unethical. There are also situations where I believe hospital birth to be unethical. Make sense? If I know that the chances are very high that my child could be physically or emotionally damaged by being born in a hospital, then ethically I have a responsibility to protect my child by birthing elsewhere.

Of course you should not make your decision based on someone elses moral views. You should make the decision based on your own moral views.

-Angela
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