Fathers Bond

[InnieTurnedOuttie]

Now I disagree with circumcision completely. Problem is... my possible son is part me, and part DP.
How can I say my opinion is anymore valid than DPs on the issue?
Yes, sure, you can talk about how "you're talking about cutting x off of a baby"... but who is to say the person you say this to will feel any remorse or respect for that statement. My DP has told me over and over "you don't have to take part, I'll take him to get it done etc". He says that as if it would console me. Of course it does not. I told him just because I don't see it doesn't mean I can just let it happen. I told him the only way we could do it is if we got a dr. to come to our house and do it without giving the baby drugs for pain. He felt that I was making it harder when it could be so simple to just take the baby to the hospital. He said that when you put it under my terms it's too hard to do. I told him thats because I'm not sugar coating it from what it actually is. I want you to know what you are doing and I want you to decide that it is worth all this just for a some stupid social purpose. I told him he himself needs to overcome his issues and prejudice against men who are uncirc, but he's not giving.

Ladies... I need some horror stories about complications from hospital circumcisions. I need some HORRIBLE ones to show him. I feel that this will be the only way to bring him around.

[Quirky]

Your son is part you and part DH but he is ALL his own person with his own body and his own rights to that body. That's why it doesn't matter that he is half DH genetically, it doesn't matter that your dh has a penis and you don't - this is not DH's penis you're deciding about, it's your son's, and your son is the only person who has a right to decide whether to cut the end of it (and the most sensitive part) off.

Your opinion on this is that you want to leave your son whole, as nature made him - as his genetic component coming from your dh, the Y chromosome, made him. Your son's penis will look like your dh's penis AS IT WAS WHEN DH WAS BORN. That's why your opinion trumps your dh's on this - because you do not want cosmetic surgery performed on your newborn son to alter his natural penis. Your opinion trumps because you want to protect your newborn son's human rights to keep his body whole. Your son is a whole person and has rights to his own body.

Why does your dh want to cut your son? What does your dh think he will gain? There is nothing your dh will gain that can match the magnitude of what your son will lose. Your dh will gain the psychological comfort of not having to face up to the fact that his penis might not be as pleasureable and functional as it would have been had he been left intact. Your son will lose fifty to eighty percent of the skin system of his penis, along with half of the erogenous nerve endings - 10,000 to 20,000 of them.

This is a medical decision you and your dh are facing. This is surgery. The burden of proof for this procedure should be on your dh - make him prove to you why it is necessary to inflict this cosmetic surgery on your son. Why do the benefits outweigh the risks? Make him do the research and find the medical studies to show that the benefits of circ outweigh the risks of infection, meatal stenosis, death, etc. (not to mention the 100% risk of loss of the foreskin).

You should read this (this is not for your dh):

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

Here are some good articles for your dh:

http://www.fathermag.com/health/circ/gmas/ (this one discusses a father witnessing his son's circumcision)

http://www.noharmm.org/separated.htm

Make him watch the video, with the sound turned up: http://www.intact.ca/vidintro.htm

If you want some graphic pix of circ complications, here you go:

http://www.infocirc.org/fourn.htm

http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/

http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/ (look under The Issues - Complications for tons of pix)

ETA: your ds will not bond with your dh because their penises look the same. Your ds will bond with your dh because your dh will hold him, play with him, read books to him, bounce him to sleep, kiss his owies, give him a bath, play trains with him, feed him his dinner, kiss him goodnight, carry him around all day, etc. Their penises will have absolutely nothing to do with the bond they form.

The early years are when the bond is formed. Your ds will have no clue that his father's penis is different from his for many years to come - long after he has bonded to his daddy. My ds is 3 and has never commented on his father's penis (except to note that daddy has one and mommy doesn't - poor mommy! )

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

Read the sticky above "If you regret circing" it has some real horror stories not only about complications but about mommas many years down the road who still feel awfull about giving into a dh. Some have even had to have mental health help.

Honestly this isnt about you or your dh really this is about your son and his future. IMO What is best for your ds not what is best for you or your dh.

[calngavinsmom]

As far as who's opinion is most valid......the one who has to live with the concequences of the action.....your baby boy!

There is absolutely no reason why you cannot leave this decison up to your son. Circumcision is safer, more accurate, and pain is more easily managed in an older person/adult. Plus he will get to make the choice and any decisions that go along with it....penis "style", pain control methods, post-op recovery pain relief ect., ect. Newborns miss out on all of this including the pain control during and after the surgery.

Anyhow, here are some links that might be of some use to you....including the ones of complications you asked for,

Procedure
http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/methods.html

Typical Canadian Circumcision
http://www.intact.ca/video.html

General info
http://www.caringforkids.cps.ca/babies/Circumcision.htm
http://www.mothering.....by/circumc...rcumcision.html
http://www.cirp.org/pages/parents/FAQ/
http://www.infocirc.org/vice.htm
http://www.noharmm.org/separated.htm
http://www.circumcision.org/information.htm

Rates
http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/bollinger2001/ (American)
http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA/ (American)
http://www.courtchallenge.com/refs/rate1m.html (Canadian)

Medical Communities
http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/
http://www.nocircnc.org/medicalstatements.htm
http://www.circumcision.org/studies.htm
http://www.intact.ca/saskmemo.html
http://www.nurses.cirp.org
http://faculty.washington.edu/gcd/DOC/

Circumcision Not Cost Effective
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/11/prweb180294.htm

UTIs
http://www.infocirc.org/uti2.htm

Risks and Complications
http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/complications.html
http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/safety/circumcision.html (clamping methods)
http://www.infocirc.org/fourn.htm (plastibell)
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/169/3/216 (plastibell)


Anything else we can help you with, please don't hesitate to ask. Good luck to you!

Take care,
Tara

[njeb]

Has your dp responded to this argument yet?
"It's not your penis, it's our ds's. HE is the one who should decide whether or not to be circ'ed, not us. If we have him circ'ed right after birth, we deprive him of that choice."
I personally find the freedom of choice argument the most convincing one. Only the owner of the penis should choose to have himself circumcised. Routine infant circumcision deprives men of that choice.

[Super Pickle]

Innie,
I also had to fight--hard--with my husband over this issue. It was still not resolved when I went into labor. To my surprise, after the baby was born, DH was much more accomodating. He did not agree with my choice to leave the baby intact but he was not about to give me a hard time when he had just witnessed me birth a 10-lb. baby! And they are very close now--no problems bonding. I hope for your sake that you will resolve this before you go into labor, so you won't have any emotional hang-ups interfering with your birth, but if you haven't, just stand firm and flat-out refuse.

Also, DO NOT make the mistake of implying that there is something wrong with your DH's equipment. This is the biggest thing--your Dh doesn't want to believe that you think intact is "better" because he wants you to think he is the "best." Be sure to reassure him that you are happy with your love life. You might say something like, "Yours is fine, but so is the baby's, and we're not going to put him through that kind of pain when it's not medically necessary.When you were born the doctors didn't even ask the parents" (thus you are taking blame off his mom and dad).

When moms are forced into circumcision against their wills by their husbands/partners, it can negatively affect their love life. Obviously, there are trust and guilt issues, as well as the insecurity that comes with having preserved the semblance of marital harmony by committing an act that is so cruel and unethical. The mother can become fixated upon it and obsess over it, and she may also feel that her own private parts are no longer "safe" with the person who insisted on mutilating another's genitals.

[MAMom]

Lots of wonderful advice from the previous posters.

If your DP is that concerned about he & DS "looking" like each other, your DP could begin the process of foreskin restoration

[Lula's Mom]

You came to the forum! Hurray! You will get support here, and either you'll show DP the light, or you'll be strong enough to protect your (possible) son no matter what DP says.
Quirky, your second link- I had not read that one before. It was so sad.

[broodymama]

You've gotten a lot of great advice here, so I'll just add one more question to ponder:

What other body part would you cut off in the name of marital harmony?

Good luck with your DP, and you are doing a great thing by standing up for your unborn son!

[A&A]

Your thread title is "Fathers' Bond." Well, abusing your child isn't the best way to bond with him, and circumcision is child abuse.

If you had a daughter, would you respect your husband's opinion about cutting her genitalia? (If that were popular and legal in this country.) A boy deserves no less. Stand up for him, mama.

[InnieTurnedOuttie]

Originally Posted by njeb

Has your dp responded to this argument yet?
"It's not your penis, it's our ds's. HE is the one who should decide whether or not to be circ'ed, not us. If we have him circ'ed birth, we deprive him of that choice.".

Funny thing is,, this was the first argument I used. He says it's better to do it early so it will be painless. To which I replied, how do you know it's painless? I'm sure it will take weeks to heal, time which ds won't have pain killers. And who wants to pump the baby full of drugs for no reason anyhow?"
Well these kinds of arguments arn't making any effect. I have stopped proactively fighting it because it upsets me and i am still carryng. I am trying to find a more passive way to convince him. This is not about me trying to make him happy, or about harmony between us two. If this one decision would make him hate me, then we have no hrmony to begin with. I don't want to make myself upset or end up hating him for having to fight so hard for this. I know I will never forget it.

[InnieTurnedOuttie]

Originally Posted by A&A

Your thread title is "Fathers' Bond." Well, abusing your child isn't the best way to bond with him, and circumcision is child abuse.

If you had a daughter, would you respect your husband's opinion about cutting her genitalia? (If that were popular and legal in this country.) A boy deserves no less. Stand up for him, mama.

I titled it that because that is how he defends it, as if it will effect his relatonship. Which i don't believe... question is, how do i convince him?

I want you ladies to understand i'm trying to convince him OUT of circ. I'm already against it.

[alegna]

It comes down to the simple fact that neither you nor your husband have the right to cut off a healthy part of your child's body for no reason. Period. At this point I would not try to convince your husband really- I might give him a bunch of info or leave nasty pics up for him or something along those lines, but it's not worth discussing. Just be the protector. DO NOT allow anyone to harm your child. It is your responsibility to protect your child. Would you allow someone to come over and cut off his toes without medication? What if your husband was missing HIS toes? Would that make it okay? Of course not.

Just put your foot down and say that it will not happen.

-Angela

[LavenderMae]

I would give your DP info to read but if that doesn't work you need to protect your baby. It's been proven that it DOES hurt the baby (of course why wouldn't it, duh). Has your DP watched a circ, if not having him watch one might help. I just don't understand his logic so it's hard to say how to convince him otherwise.

These are horrid pictures of what can happen from circ *warning* these pictures are graphic and heartbreaking. If you are at all sensitive don't look at these pictures.

http://www.circumstitions.com/Restric/Botched4ga.html

http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/

http://www.fathermag.com/health/circ...r/horror.shtml (no pictures on this one)

Deaths caused by circ:
http://www.circumstitions.com/death.html

[AntoninBeGonin]

Innie, you are in a rough spot.

This is going to sound out-there in a crazy sort of way, but this is what I would do in your situation.

Find a place where you can be alone. You don't want anyone to bother you. Now, in your mind, ask your Dp why does he want your future son circumcised? Also in your mind, answer for your Dp. Carry on a conversation. For example:

Y: "Why do you need him to be circumcised?"
P: "Just because."
Y: "No really, I honestly want to know. I'm not going to judge you, but I do want to protect our baby, and to do that I need to know where you're coming from?"
P: "Well, I want future Ds to look like me."
Y: "Honey, Ds will never look like exactly like you. From birth he will be his own unique person. If you can't expect his eyes, or hair, or heighth to be the same as yours, why can you expect that of his penis? And, just for the sake of argument, if he were circumcised you'd still look different. For one thing his penis is about 1/25 the size of yours with no pubic hair. And for another, doctors don't follow a circumcision "norm". They just make a rough guess as to how much skin to remove. So there's no way you'll match regardless."

Don't stop there. Have a practice conversation for every single reason you can think of why he's being so stubborn. Do it for a) teasing b) girls won't like Ds c) have to have it done later d) cleaner e) whatever.

I've used this practice method with many difficult conversations and have found that it really helps me stay focused and present a well-thought out and articulate argument.

Best of luck!
~Nay

[Ann-Marita]

Maybe you could take the stance that you will agree to it IF he can convince you. He has to do the research. He has to show how it will benefit your baby.

And on another line of thought...what about the bond the baby has with YOU?! Having part of his healthy, normal body cut off will damage the bond he has with you...both from his point of view (babies often refuse to nurse after having part of their body ripped off) and from your point of view (read all the posts by mothers who regret the circ every time they change a diaper).

(Not that you wouldn't love your darling son any less...I'm not sure I'm expressing myself well. I'm not feeling well and may have strep throat.)

I sure hope your husband comes around.

[Fi.]

.what about the bond the baby has with YOU?! Having part of his healthy, normal body cut off will damage the bond he has with you

I agree with this completely -- ask if your partner if he's thought of the troubles it will cause you bonding. IMO, having breastfeeding problems (or even failure) is a much bigger deal than your husband's ego and reasoning of "our penises need to match" (which they won't ANYWAY) and I know YOU agree but I would hope HE agrees as well.

My partner was less than impressed with the idea in the beginning, in fact he was downright against it until he saw a normal penis and realised exactly what had been done to his and then he thanked me for standing firm on this issue. I've asked him from time to time if I would have let him do it and THEN he realised everything, would he regret it and he looked at me and said "For the rest of my life."

Tell your partner that you feel your baby has a right to a gentle entrance into this world and a better shot at a good nursing relationship and he's not ruining that over some complex he has about "matching" genitals.

I also agree, tell him to find evidence that it will benefit the BABY (since its surgery on the baby it should benefit HIM not your husband) and approach you about it then.

A different spin on the matching genitals:

My daughter has noticed that my son and my partner have "different" genitals. We just explained that daddy's have a booboo from when he was a baby and Layne's are okay. Was she psychologically damaged? No. She hugged him and said "Sorry your penis got hurt"

Also, my daughter noticed I have hair down there (well uh, I DID anyway) and she said: "We are different but the same. That is so cool mommy".

[trmpetplaya]

Ask him to prove to you medically that it needs to be done. He can't do it. Especially if you bring his arguments here because we can knock down any pro-circ argument he could ever come up with Quirky is 100% right about it being your son's body and that the burden of proof is on the person wanting to do the major body modification surgery on the defenseless infant. The person (YOU) wanting to protect the defenseless infant against a completely medically unecessary procedure should not be on the defensive.

Babies certainly do feel pain also... if your ds decided to get circed at age 18 (I can't imagine an 18 year old guy wanting to chop a part of his penis off... it makes the penis shorter too, I've heard) then he can have all the pain meds he wants and there won't be any dealing with a wound that is in contact with bodily wastes for you either. You're probably (pardon me if my assumption is incorrect) the one who will have to take care of his circ wound anyhow and you can also play that card. That you don't want to take care of a major surgical wound that sits in a diaper all the time with waste. Much less work to not have an open wound in a diaper... much less risk of infection as well and the complications can be devastating!

Best wishes!!!

love and peace.

[hummingbear]

So is your DP saying that he will not be able to bond with a baby boy unless the baby is circ'd?

Where is that retouched photo of the baby who has a tatoo and a mustach and the quote "What if I don't want to look like my dad?"

I so hope he comes around.

[Quirky]

On the breastfeeding/circumcision issue....it is known that circumcision interferes with a baby's ability to breastfeed. http://www.nocirc.org/statements/breastfeeding.php

There is NOTHING more important to a baby's lifelong health than breastfeeding. Babies who are not breastfed have at least a 25% higher chance of dying in their first year BECAUSE they are not breastfed.

http://tinyurl.com/8zgbc

http://www.naturalfamilyonline.com/5...a-report-2.htm

And after that, babies have a higher chance of getting cancer, diabetes, heart disease, allergies, asthma, ear infections, obesity, and other life-threatening and/or lifelong illnesses if they are not breastfed.

Not to mention if YOU don't breastfeed, you have a greater chance of getting breast cancer, ovarian cancer, and/or rheumatoid arthritis.

Breastfeeding can be very easy to establish, or it can be very, very difficult. My ds was born vaginally, without drugs, but ended up in the NICU for 4 days - and it took us three long, hard months to get breastfeeding established. It was the hardest thing I've ever done. And that was without any additional complicating factor of circ trauma.

Now, bf my dd was a piece of cake from the instant she was born. And you may or may not have bf issues whether or not you circ - but you need to be aware that circ has sabotaged many nursing relationships.

As I said before and others have said after me - make your dh convince YOU why the benefits of circ outweigh the risks. If he still isn't convinced - well, tough luck for him. It would be absolutely foolish to risk your baby's life and health (as well as yours) for the sake of your dh's feelings. He's a grown man and can deal with hurt feelings like a mature adult.