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Originally Posted by Frank
I also noticed that most have studiously ignored my question of "What if it were your genitals under the same conditions that were being cut off instead of your baby's?"
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Originally Posted by aira
I didn't read the first post where you posed this question... Was it a question of would I get myself circed if it meant both BFing and keeping DC intact? Or if it came down to baby or me getting cut?
In the first, I'd pump and/or make homemade formula and leave us both whole. In the second case, I'd get cut over baby anyday. |
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Originally Posted by KatScarlett
Frank I appreciate your POV but it's not always so cut and dry.
For me and my children and our unique situation the simple fact of the matter is that I chose LIFE for my children. If two of my five children were FF they would have been dead (possibly three since my new baby has very serious health issue's and severe allergies to milk AND soy). So in my situation in my circumstance with our history I would chose LIFE, period. That is cut and dry. If it meant cutting off my child's arm or mine, if it meant removing any part of my body I would chose to do that so that my child would live. Take anything off of me that you want with or without anesthesia, I don't care, I just want my baby to live. I've been in a situation where I watched my child nearly die before my eyes and I would give anything and do anything to ensure that never happened again. I am as anti-circ as you'll find them. It makes me absolutely sick that I cut DS1 and it kills me that all of my sibs and sibs-in-law have chosen to circ. Still, when it comes to life and death it's not much of a competition. ~ Patti mom of 5 4 intact - 2 boys, 2 girls 1 cut |
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Originally Posted by momof3sweeties
Originally Posted by paquerette
I think if I were my grown-up son, I'd rather have diabetes, asthma, digestive problems, and allergies than an incomplete sex life. Really? I wouldn't want my sons to have the health problems and a shorter life. If there had to be a choice it would be breastfeeding. I have seen kids from family members and friends totally formula fed, have tons of health problems, tubes in ears, severe diaper rashes, immune problems, etc. My oldest had never been to a Dr. for any illness untill he was 4 1/2. None of my kids ever had diaper rashes, except an occasionally pink bottom which would go away by next diaper change by putting a salve on it. Males in general are pretty proud of their penis. Some even have names for them. If there are so many circumcised men out there having incomplete sex lives then why aren't they the ones advocating against circumcision? After all it's there sex life!! |
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Originally Posted by calngavinsmom
But Patti, baby boys die from circumcision complications as well. Just as you didn't know before hand that you would be risking their lives by ff, every time a circumcision is preformed on an infant, their lives are being put at risk, and you would never know before hand if your baby was going to be the unlucky one that would end up dead (or seriously injured or sick) from the circumcision that you chose for him.
Ultimately it is not about choosing life or death, it is one bad choice or another. One avenue to risk the health/life of your child or another. Like trying to choose between the lesser of two evils. Because what it boils down to is either choice (ff or circ) could end badly. Take care, Tara |
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Originally Posted by KatScarlett
Tara, I totally understand and accept that. Circ DOES have inherint risks, it's SURGERY for crying out loud! That's why I learned more and didn't do it to my other children after having made a bad and misinformed decision (on advice from my Dr.'s) the first time. There are risks, baby boys DO die from it. It's horrible and wrong and IMO should be illegal in the same way that FGM is. Trust me, I get it. It is not something I could ever do again and that I regret horribly having done at all. Like others have said, thank God we don't HAVE to chose. I am a breastfeeding, baby wearing, co-sleeping, non-cutting parent and will always be that way... to however many children we have.
What I'm saying is that for ME in MY case alone I would risk cutting off a part of myself or my child because of the known and extremely high risks of not BF in my particular family. My family is a somewhat unique case. I know there are children that die every single year because they were not BF but it's not common. Heck, I was FF and I did okay. I have health issue's now but that's just life. However going into a situation where you know that the very possible outcome is death you have to do as you said, chose the lesser of two evils. In my case it would be to chose to go ahead and cut myself or my child, just let him/her live. I just feel like when people say things like "I know FF people that turned out just fine" they don't understand that in the big picture that's NOT ALWAYS the case. It's something near and dear to me because of my experiences. I hope others can respect that. ~ Patti mom of 5 |
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Originally Posted by calngavinsmom
Patti, I totally respect that, I was only trying to understand,(in my own head) because as I see it, just as your dd(or anyones dd could have) had an unknown condition that made ff dangerous for her, you(or anyone) could have a son who could have had an unknown condition(like a blood disorder) that made circumcision even more dangerous (than it usually is) for him.
I was not trying to minimize your situation or really even question your response at all, just hoping to understand you POV better. Sorry if I put you on the spot. Take care, Tara |
I wound up being allergic to the formula and spent the first 3 weeks of my life crying for hours on end until I was switched to soy formula. I have to wonder what kind of effect that had on me. At least she learned from that experience and partially breastfed her next 2 children. Both my brother and sister's IQ's are higher than mine (just a few points higher) and neither have as bad as allergies as I do so I'm disappointed she didn't at least try it. But at least I have the genitals I was born with.
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Originally Posted by Cynthia Mosher
I've removed posts that were inappropriate and or taking the thread off topic. Let's please keep to the discussion posted by the OP. If you take issue with the question and cannot post appropriately then please refrain from posting.
This thread is reopened for discussion. |
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Originally Posted by FranklySpeaking
I don't believe a baby cares where the milk/formula comes from or tastes like, they just want to be fed, so it's the mother who wants breast feeding. Forget about the health benefits for now.
There has never been a baby born that wanted painful cutting done anywhere on his body. This also falls into the category of a mother's wants. If it's all about Mom's want, why shouldn't it be Mom who gets cut? If it were you that wanted to breast feed, would you give up your external genitalia and the corresponding sexuality plus endure excruiating pain during and after the procedure to breast feed? |
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Originally Posted by A&A
Oh, the intactivism, definitely. There are plenty of people out there advocating breastfeeding, so it's likely she'd get that kind of info from someone else. But I may be the ONLY person she comes in contact with who says, "Leave your son intact."
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Originally Posted by TortelliniMama
Personally, I think in general not circ'ing would be the more effective battle. Once you've gotten people to leave the hospital with an intact son, I think you have a good chance that they're not going to have him circ'd later on (especially since he'll seem more and more like a "real person" as time goes on). Leaving him intact becomes the course of least resistance. But there are lots of women who are talked into bf'ing and who aren't successful at it because bf'ing requires continuing effort. So you could talk her into it during pg, but have a high chance of her changing her mind later.
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Originally Posted by KatScarlett
Tara, thanks for that.
Also just so you know I did circ my oldest son and as it turned out he did have a condition that could have easily made having been cut life-threatening for him. He had a rare blood disorder called neutropenia, which means that he didn't have enough white blood cells to fight off infection. If his circ had became even the tiniest little bit infected or there was any kind of complication what-so-ever it could have easily been disastrous for my DS! Unfortunately we had no idea his white cell count was compromised until well after his circ. We actually found out when he was 7 weeks old and admitted to the hospital with a severe pneumonia. They did a routine blood test and were stunned at what they saw, they did it again and his numbers were even worse. He had almost no immune system (thank GOD that I had chosen to BF him!). Because of my experience with that I have actually been working for YEARS to get the hospitals in our area to run routine CBC's before performing circ's. It's a simple blood test that can be done quickly and cheaply to check for any kind of anomoly before putting a newborn under the knife. As I tell the local hospitals here all the time the ONLY surgery a hospital would even consider doing without one iota of medical background on the patient on which they intent to operate is circ, and that's just WRONG! I am adamently opposed to circ at all but if they HAVE to do them I think the only responsible way to even consider surgery on a newborn is with the most preliminary and basic of blood work ups to get some kind of idea of the general health and well being of the child beforehand. If I had any idea that circ could have been even the slightest danger to DS1 I would have never for one moment have considered it. I think hospital's owe it to parents to first and foremost impress upon them that circ is in no way medically necessary or beneficial and then secondly, if the parents insist upon it, they should insist on routine blood work to establish some kind of medical awareness about the child and his well being. Like I said, I still think it should be illegal but we're not there yet. ~ Patti mom of 5 |
I had never thought about the CBC thing and blood disorders....I am so glad your son didn't get an infection from his circ!
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Originally Posted by Frankly Speaking
I also noticed that most have studiously ignored my question of "What if it were your genitals under the same conditions that were being cut off instead of your baby's?"
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Originally Posted by mamaverdi
But this happens all the time in the US: EPISIOTOMY.
(And women have their internal genitals/reproductive organs cut too via c-section. These rates are incredibly high as well.) mv |
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Originally Posted by KatScarlett
Frank I appreciate your POV but it's not always so cut and dry.
For me and my children and our unique situation the simple fact of the matter is that I chose LIFE for my children. If two of my five children were FF they would have been dead (possibly three since my new baby has very serious health issue's and severe allergies to milk AND soy). So in my situation in my circumstance with our history I would chose LIFE, period. That is cut and dry. If it meant cutting off my child's arm or mine, if it meant removing any part of my body I would chose to do that so that my child would live. Take anything off of me that you want with or without anesthesia, I don't care, I just want my baby to live. I've been in a situation where I watched my child nearly die before my eyes and I would give anything and do anything to ensure that never happened again. I am as anti-circ as you'll find them. It makes me absolutely sick that I cut DS1 and it kills me that all of my sibs and sibs-in-law have chosen to circ. Still, when it comes to life and death it's not much of a competition. ~ Patti mom of 5 4 intact - 2 boys, 2 girls 1 cut |
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Originally Posted by Frankly Speaking
Tara, njeb, Lilli, Quirky and mamaverdi:
If it were your genitals that were to be removed with little or no pain management or breast feeding, which would it be? If you’ve already answered this, please forgive me. I didn’t go through all of the posts on this thread but I would appreciate if you would answer again. Frank |
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Originally Posted by Frankly Speaking
Tara, njeb, Lilli, Quirky and mamaverdi:
If it were your genitals that were to be removed with little or no pain management or breast feeding, which would it be? If you’ve already answered this, please forgive me. I didn’t go through all of the posts on this thread but I would appreciate if you would answer again. |
