Feeling unsupported at MDC - Page 2

[KKmama]

s to everyone. I have felt the same way during my entire time here at MDC (Shawna, looks like we've both been "around" here for a long time)... the whole C birth thing is just a sore point; I think a lot of people here are not very gentle about it at *all*. Do y'all know about the cesarean support thread in Birth and Beyond? I've found that to be the least judgemental and most supportive and understanding place to talk about my cesarean (and even my VBAC). It doesn't matter whether your C was good or bad, whether you're planning a VBAC or a repeat with the next one--those women have been there. They get it.

I also urge you all, if you see someone violating the user agreement or just being rude to contact a moderator. The moderator can help mediate more appropriate responses. (I've done this several times.) This is part of the way we work on changing the culture here.

I don't really think that just speaking up yourself (to defend and/or explain yourself) works very well (IME). The arrogant/rude posters don't back down unless a neutral 3rd party (a mod) helps them see what's going on.

Also... I get really sick of explaining and defending my C... I stopped talking about the details a long time ago, but I will do it if pressed. I just feel like it's *unnecessary*. Why is it up to the put upon person to make the aggressor feel better??? Why do the others get the right to be rude and arrogant unless we ask them to stop??? (You know I love you, Claudia, but I disagree with you here. )

Also, FWIW, I haven't posted my VBAC story to the birth stories thread because I wasn't sure if it was "good enough"... (it *was* good enough for me--I avoided a repeat!!).

[AngelBee]

Just wanted to say that I support all of you mamas and your births. I am sorry that you have felt this way at MDC

[Ruthla]

Originally Posted by inezyv

It is annoying, it is insensitive, but some people are insecure enough that they have to show how their superior parenting triumphed over other mothers. If it isn't the birth, it's gonna be the fact their kid walked earlier or slept in her own bed earlier or whatever. That's just the way some people are...

Or the fact that their kid co-slept longer or nursed more often during the night or they nursed the most kids at once or wove all their own cloth diapers from the cotton plants in the backyard... "one-upmanship" comes in all forms!

I was very, very fortunate to have found a homebirth midwife for my first baby. I was in labor for 36 hours, and she was completely patient with me. Had I been in a hospital, I probably would have been "augmented" which could have ended in a c/s. My second baby might have been an "automatic c/s" because she was 9 lbs. I didn't have 3 homebirths because I'm "better" than anybody- I was very lucky! In other areas of my life I've been less fortunate.

[goodcents]

Look I am all for natural birth and all that. I really am.

But.....

Thank God for C-Sections.

They save the lives of mamas and babies. My sister and her split breech son being one of the many.

To put this in perspective, a woman dies in Afghanistan once every 30 minutes because of access to proper prenatal and L&D care. While I would like to see the C-Section rate in America lowered, I also want to be thankful that our women have options.

And I know what I am saying cannot not erase a bad birth experience (and I had a terrible go with my first one) I do feel it is important that women here know that they are loved, welcomed and supported no matter how their baby entered the world.

So welcome MDC mamas who have had C-births* wether they were "necessary" or not, they served the ultimate purpose of birthing your baby into the world. Might I suggest we follow Pamela England ala Birthing From Within's lead here and use language like "Cesarean Birth" to connect with the experience, vs. Cesearean Section which "sections" you off from the experience?

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by goodcents

Might I suggest we follow Pamela England ala Birthing From Within's lead here and use language like "Cesarean Birth" to connect with the experience, vs. Cesearean Section which "sections" you off from the experience?

As I've said here before, other people can call it a birth if they want to. But, I have no desire to "connect with the experience" after the fact when I wasn't connected at the time.

And, I'm not trying to take away from the good that c-sections can do (I believe that I wouldn't be here without them, as I suspect my mom would have died in childbirth with my brother), but I don't think the causes of death in Afghanistan are as straightforward as not having good prenatal or L&D care. There have also been huge problems with malnutrition and I'm sure women lived with a lot of emotional trauma under the Taliban.

[eilonwy]

Originally Posted by MommytoTwo

I dont mean to hijack but I just have to say, a friend of mine had a c/s and instead of saying "After I delivered" or "after I gave birth" or "After I had him" she says "After they c-sectioned me" ... (which of course is not a word but thats not the point) it makes me so mad. Whenever she says that I correct her and say, "You mean after you gave birth" ....

: I just wanted to address this-- I had an emergency c-section with my daughter, and while the experience was, on the whole, a positive healing one, adjusting after the delivery was a lot of work. 16 months later, I still don't feel like my daughter was born. I certainly didn't give birth to her. I had no labor, nothing that could be remotely construed as a contraction, and no pain at all-- there was absolutely nothing to signal to my body that I had made the transition from being pregnant to being a parent. The first time I saw my daughter, I was sort of surprised. I kept touching my belly for *months* afterwards, and when I'd wake up in the night and see her there I'd think, "If you're really mine, how the heck did you get *out*?" It was downright disorienting. It feels strange for me to say that she has a birthday. Sorry, but my daughter wasn't born. She was removed from my body. It wasn't forceful, it wasn't remotely painful, and it wasn't at all traumatic for me, but my daughter was removed from my body by a third party.

There was no "after I gave birth"-- there was "after my daughter arrived" or "after she was delivered from me." I don't feel a connection there. I'm not sure that I ever will. It was fully a year before I could talk about my daughter being "born by c-section," and it still doesn't come naturally to me. My daughter was delivered, and she is much appreciated and loved, but she was not born and having someone tell me to refer to her "birth" as a birth or as me giving birth just seems... well, entirely wrong.

[MommytoTwo]

No - she means the day she was c-sectioned. Trying to make her feel as though she gave birth when she doesn't feel that way is no more fair than someone trying to make you feel that you didn't. I hate it when people say I gave birth to my babies. I hate it more than I can say.

I understand what youare saying, but this person does not mind that she had a c/s and thinks it was a great thing. We have talked about it many many times.

[Storm Bride]

Then, why does she say "after they c-sectioned me"?

If she's okay with it, that's fine. I just found the "I correct her and say..." thing very frustrating. To me (not saying it applies to your friend), there's no correction to be made. OB's have magazines in their offices with stuff in them about how "moms who give birth by cesarean have still given birth" - the first time I read it, I felt as though I'd been punched in the gut (again). To me, that's completely denying the experience I had. I did not give birth to any of my children - they were cut away from a part of my body that had no feeling...in one case, I was unconscious. I feel a strong connection to my babies, which has been strengthened by nursing. But, I feel no connection to their arrival in this world...none at all. My children's birthdays were three of the worst days of my entire life, and it hurts to have people tell me that I should be proud of my courage or that I gave birth or any of the rest of it. My children were cut from me like a malignant tumour - they weren't birthed by me.

[stafl]

I think the main issue here is that women's birth experiences and their feelings about those experiences are often invalidated by others who don't understand. THAT, right there, is the problem. We need to respect other women, and their feelings.

I did not give birth to my first DD. I had nothing to do with the process at all. The doctor ripped her out of a bloody gash in my belly. Don't try to tell me otherwise. That is MY experience, and that is how I feel about it. It has nothing to do with your experience, and nothing to do with how you feel or how you should feel about your own experience. Likewise, how you feel or what you say about your experience has nothing to do with me or my feelings or my experience, either. It's hard to remember this, especiallly online, and especially when it's a subject so full of all sorts of high emotions as c-sections are.

[MizLiz]

subscribing...

I had both of my kids by c-section and *always* feel that I have to justify that I didn't just blindly follow someone else's orders; I was actively involved in the births in spite of the surgery. I have been hesitant to discuss my births here (as well as other places) because I don't want to have a bunch of people who weren't involved in them "critique" decisions that I made at the time.

Thanks for starting this thread.

[Heavenly]

And without demeaning your feelings I have to say I personally do not understand how your child's birthday can be the worst days of your life. The bitterness and anger, I think it is giving too much power to your c-sections. BUT I completely respect your right to feel that way and hope that in time you can heal from the emotional.

I personally do feel I gave birth to my children. I carried them for 9 months (well 7 months for my son), they grew and turned and kicked inside me. On the days of their births I did not push them out of my vagina, no. But I did participate, it was MY body they were taken out of. Yes in technical terms the doctor removed them from my body but I still gave birth and life to those children. The days my children were born were the best days of my life. I can never look at them as anything other than that. I have decided to schedule my 3rd c-birth and I really feel comfortable with that decision. I am going to work hard to make this child's birth peaceful and happy and I hope they know in the future that even though they were not birthed vaginally their birth was much anticipated and celebrated.

[Jane]

I've been looking at the WHO recommendations for cesearians - a 10-15% rate gives the best maternal and fetal health. While our US rate is higher than that, I don't think that most women who become pregnant really accept that they have a 1 in 10 chance of a neccesary cesearian. That's a really significant number.
I do think there are more mamas who had c-sections here that just do not want to talk about it and never bring it up. While that makes me a little sad, I think they could be right when they say that it just might not be worth it.

[eilonwy]

Originally Posted by MommytoTwo

I understand what youare saying, but this person does not mind that she had a c/s and thinks it was a great thing. We have talked about it many many times.

Like I said, my c-section was a wonderful, healing experience. It was brilliant, it was amazing, it was a FABULOUS experience all around. The fact that I feel very positively about my c-section doesn't change the fact that my daughter wasn't born, though.

[PinkSunfish]

I totally agree with the OP and I am glad that you started this thread. I *love* MDC, I was lurking here for a very long time before I became a memeber and elarned so much that has contributed to the way I raise my daughter.

However, I have noticed (especially recently) the casual and very insensitive critisicm of people who have had C/S. The use of the and icons after the word c-section in any thread where people are discussing someone else's birth drive me crazy. The inferrence being that these people were just too damned ignorant to get themselves a better birth experience.

Granted there *are* many situations where C/S may not have been warrented or surgeons were just too keen to get theknives out but that shouldn't blinker people to the fact that C/S is sometime unavoidable and even neccessary.

MDC *should* be a safe place for us to talk about all these issues, a little more sensitivity is in order I think.

[carla72]

I am so sorry that you mamas have had to go through this. I don't know from experience but I am sure that dealing with and recovering from a c-section would have been a lot to deal with on its own let alone the lack of support you have recieved. I am sorry you haven't recieved the support and understanding you should have..especially from other moms.

[goodcents]

Peggy O's letter in Mothering this issue is a timely addition to this thread.

[gottaknit]

One person was actually ignorant enough to say in response to a thread about planning a VBAC that if the person had planned a homebirth for their first they wouldn't be in this position.

What a horrible thing for a person to say! I planned a homebirth and did all of the "right" things, and still had a c/s. The arrogance of some people.... it's astounding.

As for c/birth vs. c/section..... A woman should be able to define it however she wishes. Sometimes the definition changes over time as we heal and process the experience. I, for one, also hate being corrected on this. Sometimes the memory is quite painful, and during those moments I think of it as a c/section. Other times I am filled with joy when I think of the day my son came into the world, and in those moments I consider it a c/birth.

Micromanaging another person's feelings is just plain stupid and rude. :

[Treasuremapper]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

Like I said, my c-section was a wonderful, healing experience. It was brilliant, it was amazing, it was a FABULOUS experience all around. The fact that I feel very positively about my c-section doesn't change the fact that my daughter wasn't born, though.

I feel that my daughters were born and had cesarean births.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Heavenly

And without demeaning your feelings I have to say I personally do not understand how your child's birthday can be the worst days of your life. The bitterness and anger, I think it is giving too much power to your c-sections. BUT I completely respect your right to feel that way and hope that in time you can heal from the emotional.

I personally do feel I gave birth to my children. I carried them for 9 months (well 7 months for my son), they grew and turned and kicked inside me. On the days of their births I did not push them out of my vagina, no. But I did participate, it was MY body they were taken out of. .

My children's arrivals are definitely something I'm happy about. And, I'm happy that my body did well at growing strong, healthy babies. But, I don't think I'll heal from it, and if I do, I don't know when. My oldest is 12.5 years old.

I didn't participate. I was wheeled into an OR crying and cursing that I didn't want an effing c-section...and then I woke up in pain. I don't know anything else about it. They could have given me someone else's baby and I'd never have known. (Okay - that's not entirely true, because when I did finally see him, he totally responded to my voice - he knew I was mommy.) The other two sections weren't quite that distant, but they followed from the first, and are emotionally tied to the experience.

I will admit that my miscarriages were worse (and one of them hurt physically more than 20+ hours of labour did)...and the day I told my ex to leave was probably about equal. But, the sections are still WAAAYYYY up there.

[SKK]

Originally Posted by Heavenly

The days my children were born were the best days of my life. I can never look at them as anything other than that.

:

I also don't speak very often about my births here - two c-sections - the first after 40 hours of labor and the second after 50 hours of labor (all but the very last few hours of both were unmedicated). Of couse, I was disappointed that, in the end, I had c-sections both times. But I cannot imagine allowing people to judge me because I didn't make some other choices at the time. After laborin for 50 hours and not sleeping for several days, a c-section (at midnight, I might add) was something *I* needed. I needed for my babies to be here after that amount of time. I needed to sleep. I needed for labor to be done. After a total of 90 hours of labor, I've been through enought to have about *9* kids rather than the two that I have. The only thing I didn't do was push. I got to 9-1/2 both times. I went through the whole of labor twice. Did I give birth to my kids? Hell ya! Anyone who suggests otherwise will prompty find my foot in their.....

Those days were WONDERFUL. In spite of all of it - the long labors and the c-section - I was HAPPY in the recovery room, saw both babies right away and they nursed. I was so happy and chatty the nurse the second time was like "it's 3:30 in the morning... you've just been through three days of labor and major surgery... aren't you tired?" But I just was not. I was so excited about the whole thing, that my baby was there. The c-sections didn't matter so much.

They still don't. Except sometimes I have dreams about having a baby vaginally and they are SO WONDERFUL and I wake up feeling so cheated. I love and hate those dreams.