Should we vax at 2 mo appt????

[joyfulone]

Hi All,

I'm new here and this forum has been a tremendous help to me. I'm so torn about vaccinating my 2 month-old tomorrow, or not. Her ped wants to give her the Hib with Hep B, prevnar, DTaP, and polio vaccines. I just found this out from the receptionist yesterday. I wish I would have found this out from the Dr. at our 2-week visit, so I would have had more time to prepare! I always tend to lean more towards doing everything naturally (natural childbirth with a doula, induced with acupuncture, hypnobirthing, etc.), and so I'm very open to holding off on vaccines, as well. But I'm really worried about the ped being angry at me- she's really conservative, but very well-liked in the community where I live so I'm a bit intimidated by her reputation and the possibility of her telling me that we'll have to leave her practice if we don't go along with her "schedule."

But I have to remember that I'm trying to look out for the health of my beautiful little girl, not staying on the good side of a popular doctor, right?

I'm so undereducated in the whole vaccination thing. All I've done so far is to read the 'What Your Doctor may no tell you about children's vaccinations" book. Some of the anti-vaccine sites that I have visited look so one-sided, and almost hard to believe with a lot of their articles. I'm just looking for some very grounded and believable research and data studies to consider and read to try and come up with my decision. Can you recommend any good resources for that?

I think I'm going to have to tell the Dr. that we need to postpone the vaccine appointment until I have more time to think and research. A decision like this can't be rushed into, and she never warned us at our last visit that there would be vaccines at this visit, as well. And if she's too busy in her popular practice to meet with us again, then maybe I will just have to look for a less popular doctor to see for my daughter's needs.

Thanks for reading, and I'd love to hear any input or support you may have,
joyful

[mamakay]

Well, I was in your shoes for ds's 2 month appointment, and we went, and were bullied into vaxing, and ds got very, very sick after. I regret even going.
So honestly, unless you're absolutely sure you'll be able to stand your ground just don't show up.
Take more time to research this stuff.
If you decide you want to vax, then ok. What have you lost?
Being a few weeks behind schedule?
There are some vaxes I'm going to psychicly predict you're immediately going to decide not to get. Like Hep B.
And then there are some others that will really leave you torn, whether you decide to or not to vax...like DTaP.

I started out thinking I was going to delay vaxing till one year. Then I vaxed at 2 months and regretted it. Then I changed docs and still thought I'd delay till one.
Then I decided I didn't want a few, at which point I was technically a "Delaying and Selective Vaccinator".
And then my list of vaxes I wanted to get kept growing smaller and smaller, and now I don't want ds to get any, and he's 2 now.
Although, I'm reconsidering tetanus at this point. I'm not in a rush to go out and get even that vax, though.
Maybe you will read the same stuff I've read and come to entirely different conclusions.
It happens like that sometimes.
Who knows?
There is no one good source for info about this. You've gotta look at each disease and each vax on it's own, and figure it out on your own, looking at all the sources.
I don't even read "anti-vaccination" sites on the internet.
Most of them just read like juvenile pseudoscientific bs.
Interestingly, though, if you look hard, it's sites like the CDC's that make the strongest cases for not vaxing.
You've just got to dig through pages and pages of "vaccines are completely safe and effective" statements to find what you want to know.
But once you read what you eventually do, then there's no denying it.

Good luck on your journey. It's a long one.

[Ruthla]

I look at it this way: you can always give the vaccines later, but once they're given, you can't take them out. Babies CAN have severe reactions to the first shot.

Remember that the doctor CANNOT administer any vaccines unless you sign the consent form. You can simply tell them "I want to research these vaccines more thoroughly before giving them. Give me the informational sheets and we'll discuss it again at the next appointment."

I wasn't too scientific when it came to not vaxing my infants. I just looked down at my baby and thought "she's too small and vulnerable for this right now." All my kids were "fully vaccinated" in time for preschool- somehow, vaccinating a sturdy toddler who's eating dirt off the floor didn't affect my "mama bear" instincts in the same way. I'm not aware of any convincing research supporting this, but it just makes sense to me that an older child has a stronger immune system, plus any toxins in the shots are more diluted in a bigger body. Most research seems to be based on vaccinating vs not vaccinating, rather than on vaccinating at different ages.

[jojospok23]

Actually some doctors WILL give vax without the consent form. In my case, DD had her HepB administered whilst I was crying too hard to see from the nurse botching her heal prick test for PKU (three pricks and both heals later, one was black from heal to mid foot), and I didn't know till her scream changed pitch. Then I wanted to know WTF was going on-DH had allowed her to do it. He is provax and at that point we hadn't talked about it.

We left that practise, but that vax cannot be undone.

Docs are not supposed to vax without that consent form, but ours did it anyway and hadn't even given us the info sheet on it, as is also supposed to happen. So please, please, do not let your child out of your sight or you just might find that whilst the doctor is talking to you, the nurse is prepping the shot.

I found the info I needed in the CDC website when I found them contradicting themselves and contradicting both medicine and common sense. Just take a look at the statistics regarding the times that the diseases went into decline, and when the vax started. Then find the contradictions-if they try and give you bull then why should you believe a single word they say (at least that was the conclusion I came to).

Delay, but if you don't think you know enough now then cancel the appointment-you can always reschedule in a week, because they will try and strongarm you. You really need to be able to stand your ground firm-I took my MIL for support at her 2 month apt, she's a nurse and supports my decisions.

Good luck with whatever you chose to do.

[dallaschildren]

I asked a very similar question awhile back...I was ready to bring DS # 2 in for his next round of vaxes and a mama here said...CANCEL IT. Cancel the appointment until you have done your research. Read, read, read. You can always bring your babe in later when you have had enough time to decide what's best.
I cancelled and after a lot of reading, haven't been back since and he is now 2.

DC

[aira]

Please don't do anything to that beautiful babe just to appease a doctor's big ego!!

You are the only one in that office who cares solely about DC's health and well-being. Please do not ever defer these big decisions to anyone - no matter how highly they think of themselves. You are also the only one who will live with regret for the rest of your life if something goes wrong.

Research, research, research.

[jojospok23]

I couldn't have said that better. You have to live with this for the rest of your child's life, you must be sure you are happy with your choice. You can't take it back once it's done.

[Mommy To Baby Roni]

Joyful, I agree with everything said above and think you should cancel the appointment to avoid doing something you may regret. You may even want to seek out a ped or family practitioner that is more in line with your own thoughts on natural parenting and medicine. There are several peds in my town that "everyone" goes to. However, if you asked the moms on my local natural parenting board, they wouldn't bring their children to them if they were dying.

A book I highly recommend is "How To Raise A Healthy Child In Spite Of Your Doctor" by Dr. Mendelsohn. Go with your gut and read, read, read. Yes, some of this stuff sounds unbelieveable, but much of it is true. After a while, all this overwhelming info will all fall into place.

[LoveChild421]

sounds like your instincts are taking you down the right track- don't doubt yourself mama, Dr.s try to make us do that so much! take some time and do the research- don't vax unless you are 100% sure- you can always do them later or not at all or some and not all. My Dr. who is pro-vax even admitted to me that the odds of getting these diseases are so low that there isn't any harm in waiting.

Here are a couple resources I found very helpful when I started my research:

"Vaccines: A Thoughtful Parent's Guide" by Aviva Jill Romm

and The National Vaccine Information Center website
http://www.909shot.com

good for you for wanting what is best for your baby and taking the time to form your own opinions.

[alegna]

Another vote to say- don't inject your baby with ANYTHING until you're 100% sure you want to.

-Angela

[joyfulone]

Well, we gave-in a little...

Well, dh and I went in together to dd's appointment today (we decided not to cancel at the last minute). We planned to tell her we wanted to postpone everything , but when we started talking about it the Dr. just expressed a lot of concern about how we've been reading "that controversal book" and she said she was worried about the fad that's going on right now around not vaccinating kids. She told us about the amish kids who recently contracted polio b/c they weren't vaccinated, and she says that she still sees whooping cough going around today. She said she'd let us decide whatever we want to do, after we sign the waiver, but she said we'll be the one's who'd have to see our little girl turning blue in the face from coughing so much if she catches whooping cough b/c we decided against the DTaP.

Uggh, so we gave-in and agreed to do the polio and the DTaP. The Dr. said she had them given to her son, and her partner in her medical practice had them given to her daughter, and she seemed really caring and kind- not pushy and threatening like I feared she would. It broke my and dh's hearts when she cried her eyes-out at the 2 shots she got in her chubby little thighs (ugggh!) and she's been extremely tired and pretty cranky ever since then. I feel so guilty for the way she feels and I just pray that she has no negative reactions to the vax's.

It's such a terribly hard decision to make. I feel bad if I don't get the vax's b/c I fear that she'll catch some horrible disease, then I feel bad when she gets the vax's b/c she looks so miserable. I feel like I can't win as a mom and it's so unfair. But I can't have my dd live in a bubble, either. I want her to be able to go to Sunday school and into the nursery at our church like all the other kids do. But when I talked to a non-vaxing friend of mine today she said she won't be putting her kid in the nursery at church, nor letting him play at the houses of any little friends who aren't refraining from vaxing like he is. So, then I guess if we keepm vaxing our dd then she won't be invited over to play at their house ever in the future.

We did schedule to get the Hib and Prevnar done in 2 weeks, but we can definitely cancel the appointment if we want to. I just have to immerse myself in whatever believable research I can find and then try to come to a decision that way I guess.

Thank you so much for your input and support, and I will definitely be posting more on the board in the weeks to come!

thanks,
joyful (well, not feeling that joyful at the moment!)

[alegna]

typical.

fwiw my dd does not live in a bubble. we go everywhere and do everything. no worries.

-Angela

[mamakay]

First of all, I wish your dd the best. Most kids do fine with vaxes, I think.
Secondly, your Ped lied about both Polio and Pertussis.
Polio:
Both you and I had a vax called the "inactivated polio vaccine", IPV. All this vax does is keep polio from from causing "paralytic" polio. Now, none of those Amish kids are even sick with the polio virus, which is not surprising, seeing as how only 1/100-1/1000 cases of viral infection with polio even causes "paralytic polio".
Vaccinated people who did not get the "oral polio vaccine", which most people in America did not get, have no immunity to polio whatsoever. They only have a defense to the virus causing paralysis.
AND, the polio strain the Amish kids are carrying is the VAX strain. So, as another poster here put it, your ped told you that you had to get the IPV to protect your child from the OPV.
Ugh. This is really complicated. Just read the polio thread here and follow all the links and see what I'm talking about for yourself.

About the DTaP.
It only "works", after all 3 shots, about 66% of the time, and the 3rd shot doesn't happen until your baby is almost one. And, most pertussis complications happen in babies under 6 months, when even "fully vaxed" babies are still not even maybe topping out at that 66% as they've only had one or 2 shots.

I'm not gonna say "I told you so" because I fell for that crap at the 2 month apt., too.
So I know.
But I will definitely recommend that you fire that doc.

ETA:
Here's that polio thread.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=355598

And ETA again:
Here's the pertussis "66%" info
http://iai.asm.org/cgi/content/full/68/12/7152

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by joyfulone

She told us about the amish kids who recently contracted polio b/c they weren't vaccinated, and she says that she still sees whooping cough going around today.

Oh you were majorly done over weren't you:

1) The Amish children did not "contract" polio. Not one of them had any disease. One immunosuppressed child with pneumonia was found to have a polio vaccine virus in a fecal specimen, and when they tested contacts they found four other perfectly well children who also had the oral polio vaccine virus in their feces as well.

Since up until four years ago, or thereabouts, the whole of America was in a constant similar state of carrying Oral Polio Virus, just how does she get off with such blatant misinformation.

There are some threads on this forum which go into the Amish Polio issue in great detail. Read them.

2) Oh yes, whooping cough is still going around. Primarily in fully, appropriately vaccinated children. I bet she didn't mention that bit either.

When you go see these sort of people, you need to be informed before you let them weasel their fear tactics into your brain.

It's such a terribly hard decision to make. I feel bad if I don't get the vax's b/c I fear that she'll catch some horrible disease, then I feel bad when she gets the vax's b/c she looks so miserable. I feel like I can't win as a mom and it's so unfair. But I can't have my dd live in a bubble, either. I want her to be able to go to Sunday school and into the nursery at our church like all the other kids do.

This is one issue but then...

But when I talked to a non-vaxing friend of mine today she said she won't be putting her kid in the nursery at church, nor letting him play at the houses of any little friends who aren't refraining from vaxing like he is.

Well, that's stupid. Doesn't she trust God? Her child should be able to go anywhere and meet anyone with impunity. I mean, will she not take him shopping either?

So, then I guess if we keep vaxing our dd then she won't be invited over to play at their house ever in the future.

Okay, it seems both of you have got some other issues to sort out and they might relate to the answers you both might give to these issues.

(By the way, I am a Christian, have gone through all this and more so know how it feels to be challenged in this way. And sometimes we have to front up and be challenged and answer the hard questions.)

1) Was God a total dummy when he designed and made your child's immune system? After all, you seem to assume that your child's immune system is too stupid to manage without the shots. And your Christian friend who doesn't vaccinate seems to think that God is too stupid to protect her unvaccinated child from your vaccinated child. Logic has gone out the window here somewhere.

2) If you accept that God made the world, and looked after his own people in the bible stories up until 1950 maybe, do you think he then abdicated that responsibility when man got smarter than Him and came up with vaccines, to plug the vaccine deficiency so blatantly 'un-obvious' since Adam?

3) If you look at the old testament, when did the people get sick? Particularly in their 40 years of wilderness...

4) If you look at the new testament, how many people who went to Jesus to have their diseases healed, went away unhealed?

5) Luke was a physician... was he just a backup for the apostles in case the Holy Spirit stuffed up and they couldn't heal someone?

6) What sort of God is this, that you believe in? There is a scripture which says "Fear is not of God." You are very fearful. Is that from God? If not, where does it come from? What are you going to do about it?

When God says "I will supply all your needs" exactly what does that mean?

I think both you and your friend need to do some pretty deep bible study and also ask God what he thinks about the issue, and also about both of your "fears". Neither seem either logical, or founded on any rational scriptural basis.

[Mariposa]

i wouldn't vaccinate until you are completely sure that it is what you want to do. research both sides until you are comfortable with your decision. you can't undo them, but if you decide to vax, you can always change your mind and give them. good luck on your search. keep reading here!

for what it's worth, i let my DD go anywhere and play with anyone even though she isn't vaxed. i trust that i am doing all i can to keep her immune system healthy and that we can deal with any of the illnesses should she get one. it is a "risk" i take, i guess, but much less scary than the risks of vaccines, IMHO.

[DesireeH]

for what it's worth, i let my DD go anywhere and play with anyone even though she isn't vaxed. i trust that i am doing all i can to keep her immune system healthy and that we can deal with any of the illnesses should she get one. it is a "risk" i take, i guess, but much less scary than the risks of vaccines, IMHO.

Us too. DS definately does not live in a bubble. We do amusement parks, shopping carts, playlands, parks, playgroups, whatever......he's 3 years and totally unvaccinated and has only had 2 colds (that lasted less than 3 days) in his life (he had a couple of one day fevers too but his immune system is strong and he fought off whatever it was.)

I would definately research the next vaccines before the appt.

[mamakay]

Oh, and, your friend is being totally unreasonable.
Ask her exactly what disease she thinks her dc might catch from a vaxed one.
Hib?
Well, there's a good chance that you and she and both of your dc'dren already have it.
Chickenpox or measles?
Meant to be caught while young. Not an issue.
S.Pneumo?
Just like Hib.

[Isaac'smama]

This is such a hard decision. Especially when you are desparately wanting to protect this most precious gift! I totally know how you feel, and I'd researched the vaccination issue for years before we had a child. Then when this precious little person was placed in my care, my brain turned to mush! Our son isn't vaccinated (14 months) and just now the fear is starting to subside. As MT mentioned, fear is not of God and that is an important thing for me/anyone to remember. The ONLY time I've truly felt peaceful on this issue (and I've been reading generally for years, and more intensely during pregnancy until now.) is when I've dropped it all, and prayed about it--we know that when we pray, God will make our paths straight. So, my advice is research, pray, and go confidently where you are led!

[Sherra]

My daughter nearly died from the dtap. They don't tell you that part of the statistic. Something to know that they don't tell you is prevnar can cause seizures.

There is a lot of reading you really need to do, this is serious stuff . I know it's confusing but please for the sake of your daughter, read up on this stuff and then decide which is best for you and don't get pushed into it. I really wish I had read up on this stuff. ER/NICU for a few days was not fun.

If you are interested in my story, PM me.

In the mean time..there are two books you may be interested in:


The Vaccine Guide by Randall N.
http://www.cure-guide.com/Vaccine_Gu...ine_guide.html

How to raise a healthy child in spite of your doctor by Robert Mendelsohn

Please please read those two books.

Here is an internet show you can listen to: www.hpakids.org click on internet show, then click on Click to view the Modaview Player

Check out the archives. They should say vaccine 1 and vaccine 2 shows. Let me know if you need help finding them.

[Sherra]

We did schedule to get the Hib and Prevnar done in 2 weeks, but we can definitely cancel the appointment if we want to.

I would cancel this so you aren't up against a hard stop. This may take some time to do this appropriately. Even with my daughter nearly dying after her 2nd month shots, it took me over 2 months to get ANY clarity on this situation. I just want you to give yourself some time and it will be hard if you have a hard pressing appointment.