Including kids in your normal life - Page 3

[johub]

Originally Posted by primjillie

While I agree that children should be welcome almost anywhere, letting a 2 year old roam a restaurant is just not safe. If your child cannot sit for a while or an adult cannot walk the child around, I don't think they should there. The fact that they were not even paying attention to him leads me to think they wanted to go out and didn't want to bother with the child at all. I have my eyes on my toddler at all times when I am out.

I am kinda in agreement here. I dont think this was necessarily a stand taken in favor of child friendliness.

[sunnysideup]

I saw lots of kids in restaurants in Italy roaming with freedom, but they were never wild or unsafe. Maybe because it is so common, and they are given the freedom early and often they learn to handle it well.

[QueenOfThePride]

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That's an excellent theory, and is in alignment with my parenting philosophy.

[sophmama]

I recently was attending a business conference and I didn't have childcare and the event director told me to bring my dd (2 yo). She sat SILENTLY next to me in a chair reading books happily for an hour while I attended a workshop and then behaved very quietly and calmly for hours more in the tradeshow area. Not one incident of acting up or crying or anything. I got SOOO MANY dirty looks and jaw droping looks like I had my bra on the outside of my clothes or something, "OH MY GOD THAT WOMAN HAS A TODDLER AT A CONVENTION!" It was noisy anyways and it wouldn't have been noticable if she had acted up but she never did. It was a women's entreprenuers conference so most of the audience/vendors were women. The few men were very friendly to her. Most of the women avoided me like the plague even though I'd had an entorage of a**kissers the night before when she was home with daddy when my art was being presented and auctioned. The whole experience made me want to vomit. The mentality of the conference was that women had to become like jr. men and be free from child responsibilities to be truly 'equal'. I am ALL about women equality and I want all the freedoms that men experience but I don't want a child free society and I'd rather see kids out with their parents in business places even acting like kids a little (within reason - and only with gentle discipline - the parents yelling at their kids is more disturbing to me than the kids acting up). That said parents do need to keep their kids tolerance for a long day, over stimulation, etc. in mind and be fair to the kid - don't drag them out to something they're going to hate and their going to make everyone else miserable.

But the bank - many business things can be done with kids in tow I think.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

There is certainly room for cultural and family differences. If you are in Spain and dinner time is 11 PM, then thats what a child is used to, even if you are visiting in the US where dinner is generally earlier, especially for kids. If you have a "night owl" family then you go out late in the evening and it works. But if you are in the US and your family's "normal" dinnertime is at 6 and now you have a 15 mo. old in a non-family-friendly restaurant at 9 PM and the kid is howling and throwing pasta at everyone without reach because he is bored, ignored, strapped down and tired, then its a bad situation. If you child likes classical music or opera or ballet, then by all means take them. But if they don't AND you don't want to go through any trouble to make them happy, then please DON'T ruin things for everyone else and take them anyway. I didn't say that all children should be home and not in restaurants at 9 PM, I said that children who were miserable and parents who didn't seem to care shouldn't be there.

Its a matter of respecting your child, your family, and those around you. Of course children should be welcomed just about anywhere. But if its an unusual place for a child or a difficult situation for most children, then you have to expect that others might be a little leary until they see that your child is fine. And if the child needs some props (snack, book, toy, whatever) to be happy, then the parents should respect that and plan accordingly. And if the child isn't fine, then, barring an emergency or some unusual circumstances, then they should be where they will be happier and healthier.

[TripMom]

Originally Posted by johub

I agree in principle but not in practice. Kids should be allowed anywhere adults go. But in my experience, and my family. THere are just some places that a child wouldnt want to be anyway. So it is pure torment for them to be expected to sit through a movie/show that they do not understand or enjoy, or go to a restaurant where they are expected to keep their voices down and enjoy the deightful adult conversation.
There are places I do not take my children (even when I had one) but not because society tells me they do not belong there. But because my child would not enjoy it, and as a result neither would I.
Now if a small child just loved opera, then that small child does belong in an opera house with his parents. But I wouldnt take my child to one.
Joline

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[TripMom]

Originally Posted by QueenOfThePride

Why would I take my kid somewhere he doesn't want to be?



.

Well, the post was in response to the "I take my kids everywhere I go" posts. I love being with my kids and spend the vast majority of my time with them. However, I love my husband - that's how I got my kids that I love so much - I occasionally enjoy his uninterrupted company. Dinners out uninterrupted in adult restaurants for a lingereing evening meal with wine and all the courses . . . . that is somewhere I REALLY like to be . . .and my kids . . . . don't? So, that is one example? Is it really sooo far fetched?

[QueenOfThePride]

Well, the post was in response to the "I take my kids everywhere I go" posts.

Well, I don't take DS everywhere either. But if I choose to, I could do without the 'get a babysitter' attitude. Kids should be included in as much as possible, not everything without exception. I wouldn't want my kid seeing an R rated movie anyway.

[*LoveBugMama*]

Originally Posted by primjillie

While I agree that children should be welcome almost anywhere, letting a 2 year old roam a restaurant is just not safe. If your child cannot sit for a while or an adult cannot walk the child around, I don't think they should there. The fact that they were not even paying attention to him leads me to think they wanted to go out and didn't want to bother with the child at all. I have my eyes on my toddler at all times when I am out.

You might be right about this particular couple. I don`t know them. But in my experience (as a Norwegian living in Norway), this is not why most Norwegian parents (and presumably Swedish) let their children run around in a restaurant.

It is just normal here. I have never been to a restaurant that DIDN`T have children running around.

I have never understood why it isn`t safe to let a child walk freely in a restaurant. I have never, ever heard of a child getting hurt while running around a restaurant here in Norway.

Children are welcome at restaurants here, as far as I know. And I have been to quite a few. More or less every restaurant I have been to have small toys/gifts for the children. Crayons, ballons, paper to draw on etc.


And the same goes for most big postoffices, dentist, doctors offices, banks etc. They have Legotables for the kids, or some other activitystations.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Originally Posted by CrunchyTamara

It is just normal here. I have never been to a restaurant that DIDN`T have children running around.

I have never understood why it isn`t safe to let a child walk freely in a restaurant. I have never, ever heard of a child getting hurt while running around a restaurant here in Norway.

Well, I've never travelled or dined outside of the US (well, not as an adult anyway). I have, however, waited an awful lot of tables in the US. Maybe because it is NOT the norm to allow children to wander here, the servers aren't used to watching for little ones under foot. If you are carrying a 20 lb. tray of hot plates and full glasses and you get off balance, someone gets hurt. I came close to scalding a child once because I had a sizzle platter on a tray and tripped over a child. The platter (about 300 degrees hot) went flying -- I actually kicked it away from the child before it hit. That, of course, resulted in an injury to me and burn on the floor. But at least it didn't hit the child. I did loose my job though, because I couldn't work the rest of my shift due to burned leg/foot.

Kids move fast, in unpredictable patterns, and well below eye level (especially if the restaurant expects you to carry your trays up high, which requires you to keep your head up for balance/posture). It is really easy to step on them, to trip and have them get hit by something you were carrying, or for them to try to touch a really hot dish on a tray stand.

At any rate, in a restaurant with hot, heavy plates and servers carrying trays, they really can get hurt very easily. Thus they shouldn't be down and wandering unsupervised.

[primjillie]

Tamara ~ how interesting that the kids run around like that without getting hurt or yelled at. Maybe here our aisles are too narrow and everyone is always in such a hurry? Or maybe the servers are expected to carry and do too much? I just know the restaurants I have been too would not be safe for a young child and here in the US there is always the threat of kidnapping. Maybe we can learn something from Norway. (BTW I am norwegian but born in the US). My granddaughter's favorite place in a restaurant is under the table, but I am afraid of the "yuck" factor under tables so we wedge her in a booth with us and color with her.

[TripMom]

Originally Posted by CrunchyTamara

I have never understood why it isn`t safe to let a child walk freely in a restaurant. I have never, ever heard of a child getting hurt while running around a restaurant here in Norway.

No one is suppose to "run around" in a restaurant. Waiters carrying heavy trays with lots of steaming hot beverages and food is one reason I can think of. Tables spaced closely together to accomodate the most patrons. Kids at knee level - waiters trays obstructing their view from chest down??

[pfamilygal]

I'll take my kids pretty much anywhere they are allowed to go except the doctor's office. I end up spending the whole time entertaining the kids and never get my questions asked. I need to be able to focus on the appt. Plus, the OB's office isn't very kid friendly.

We do try to respect others when we take them out. If they were being loud I would take them home. And we do leave them with Grandpa so we can have date night, which usually means working on our budget or other fun things.

I have to admit. I went to a scrapbooking 6 hr scrap one evening, after begging dh for a night out with the girls. We (me = my three sisters) came in and put our stuff at the tables (6 to a table) and then a lady came in with a 3 month old and put her on the table. She smiled and said "I'm nursing, so I can't leave her at home." The baby proceeded to fuss loudly for 20 minutes while she arranged her things. I about wet my pants I was so irritated. I had been looking forward to one night out for months. I had pumped so dh had milk for the baby and had brought a pump to use during the scrap. I did not want to hear her baby cry - I wanted to enjoy our night. The lady from the scrapbooking store came over and told her she either needed to leave or get someone to take the baby home. The mom got really upset and stormed out. I felt badly for being glad that she was gone. I mean, you want to support a breastfeeding mom. But it was clearly stated in the registration info that no children under 12 are permitted. Also, if it is a girl's night out, then it should be kid-free. Oy! Anyway, I'm sure I'll get flamed for being glad that she left (I did say "Good for you! Me too!" when she mentioned nursing). But part of taking your kids out means respecting others.

[*LoveBugMama*]

Originally Posted by TripMom

No one is suppose to "run around" in a restaurant. Waiters carrying heavy trays with lots of steaming hot beverages and food is one reason I can think of. Tables spaced closely together to accomodate the most patrons. Kids at knee level - waiters trays obstructing their view from chest down??

I respect that you think so. But I don`t.

As I have said, this isn`t a problem here. If it IS a problem in USA, then thats not something I have a problem with. But it is not a problem here, and therefor your statement isn`t true here.

Oooh, and by the way: Most waiters here don`t use trays. They carry plates and such by hand, no tray.

[TripMom]

Originally Posted by pfamilygal

I have to admit. I went to a scrapbooking 6 hr scrap one evening, after begging dh for a night out with the girls. We (me = my three sisters) came in and put our stuff at the tables (6 to a table) and then a lady came in with a 3 month old and put her on the table. She smiled and said "I'm nursing, so I can't leave her at home." The baby proceeded to fuss loudly for 20 minutes while she arranged her things. I about wet my pants I was so irritated. I had been looking forward to one night out for months. I had pumped so dh had milk for the baby and had brought a pump to use during the scrap. I did not want to hear her baby cry - I wanted to enjoy our night. The lady from the scrapbooking store came over and told her she either needed to leave or get someone to take the baby home. The mom got really upset and stormed out. I felt badly for being glad that she was gone. I mean, you want to support a breastfeeding mom. But it was clearly stated in the registration info that no children under 12 are permitted. Also, if it is a girl's night out, then it should be kid-free. Oy! Anyway, I'm sure I'll get flamed for being glad that she left (I did say "Good for you! Me too!" when she mentioned nursing). But part of taking your kids out means respecting others.

I hope you don't get flamed. And want to weigh in with a These type of comments can be so easily taken out of context - and we are ALL moms and LOVE our kids - so its not some competition there about who loves theirs more and spends more time with them. But I've seen a lot of posting here as well as discussion in the magazine about the need to "nurture" ourselves and do things like take time for ourselves -- and this is a perfect example of an event set up just for that purpose (clearing stating - no kids under 12) - and how on the rare occassion that you do get to do something for yourself, it would be rude for someone to impose and kind of, well, wreck it for you?

So back to the OP -- including kids in "normal life" - most PPs seem to agree that day to day errands, etc. it is important to bring 'em with if you can. Perhaps these are examples of special adult outtings - and not "normal life".

[Bethla]

When my dh and I are out dining alone and there are other kids in the restaurant we love it. I don't go out with my dh because I want to be away from children, we go out so we can spend some time together. It makes me sad that other moms are so judgemental about where kids should be. It makes me think that they may love and value their own children but view other peoples' children negatively.

There's a great small restaurant here in Sacramento, CA called the Family House. The staff is trained to deal with kids underfoot and they have good kid meal selections-also a play area. We don't give our bussiness to restaurants that wouldn't make our kids (or anyone elses) kids welcome.

[Bethla]

Originally Posted by pfamilygal

I'll take my kids pretty much anywhere they are allowed to go except the doctor's office. I end up spending the whole time entertaining the kids and never get my questions asked. I need to be able to focus on the appt. Plus, the OB's office isn't very kid friendly.

We do try to respect others when we take them out. If they were being loud I would take them home. And we do leave them with Grandpa so we can have date night, which usually means working on our budget or other fun things.

I have to admit. I went to a scrapbooking 6 hr scrap one evening, after begging dh for a night out with the girls. We (me = my three sisters) came in and put our stuff at the tables (6 to a table) and then a lady came in with a 3 month old and put her on the table. She smiled and said "I'm nursing, so I can't leave her at home." The baby proceeded to fuss loudly for 20 minutes while she arranged her things. I about wet my pants I was so irritated. I had been looking forward to one night out for months. I had pumped so dh had milk for the baby and had brought a pump to use during the scrap. I did not want to hear her baby cry - I wanted to enjoy our night. The lady from the scrapbooking store came over and told her she either needed to leave or get someone to take the baby home. The mom got really upset and stormed out. I felt badly for being glad that she was gone. I mean, you want to support a breastfeeding mom. But it was clearly stated in the registration info that no children under 12 are permitted. Also, if it is a girl's night out, then it should be kid-free. Oy! Anyway, I'm sure I'll get flamed for being glad that she left (I did say "Good for you! Me too!" when she mentioned nursing). But part of taking your kids out means respecting others.

Yeah, great support.

[TripMom]

Originally Posted by CrunchyTamara

As I have said, this isn`t a problem here.

Okay. You'd know better than me if restaurants work differently wherever you are?

Originally Posted by CrunchyTamara

Oooh, and by the way: Most waiters here don`t use trays. They carry plates and such by hand, no tray.

Well, That must make all the difference?

[earthmama369]

Hear hear to the OP.

I not only love dd, I like her and enjoy spending my time with her. I think part of the reason she's so sanguine about being in a variety of situations is because she's so used to it. Sure, I take common sense measures -- at a long dentist appt. my sister comes with us; I always have snacks and a couple toys in the diaper bag -- but she loves our adventures and I don't see how she's supposed to learn if she's at home with a sitter.

[primjillie]

Where in Sacramento is this restaurant? I live in Sacramento too and haven't heard of it. Does it have good food?