The Well-Trained Mind - Page 2

[Queen Gwen]

I enjoyed reading WTM and tend to tell other homeschoolers around here that I follow it. Really, though, I disagree with their recommendations for math, reading, spelling, science sequence, etc....hmmm...I guess you could say I follow it VERY loosely. Mainly I like their history stuff, and I like to use it as a bibliographic reference. For instance, when dd was interested in outer space I checked to see what resources they recommended for studying space.

I also purchased their Story of the World history book. The activity book includes lots of fun projects, suggestions for narrations, coloring pages and maps (soooo many maps that I'm more familiar with the area from the Persian Gulf over to Egypt than I've ever been before in my life). Mummifying a chicken, for instance, gave us a new perspective on ancient Egypt. The parent/teacher is expected to supply context, such as how the maps fit into a global picture and how the events relate on a timeline.

OTOH, their English book (can't remember the title) is pretty dreadful. It was supposed to be an update of English for the Thoughtful Child. Wasn't it Lao Tzu who said something along the lines of, "I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand."? The main method of teaching parts of speech is absolutely contrary to Lao Tzu -- it's this repetitive parroting along the lines of, "A noun is the name of a person, place, thing or idea." How the heck is a child going to *understand* grammar and language based on this rote memorization? Yikes!

As I ponder the problems I see with the language book, I think they help me focus on what bugs me about WTM. Small children tend to be very kinesthetic and tactile. They need manipulatives for EVERYTHING, not just math. Little mention in WTM of alternative learning styles.

[Openskyheart]

Once again, Gwen, you and I see eye to eye. I looked at the WTM's language book you referred to and thought it was dreadful. As I read it, my own eyes glazed over with boredom - sheesh! I use English for the Thoughtful Child with my 8 y.o. and modify it as he needs. He's really enjoyed it for the most part.

I did not buy Story of the World either (I really don't like programmed learning - I'm much more spontaneous!), but we are studying the Ancients using a variety of books, and enjoying the process very much.

Laura

[NoHiddenFees]

I read WTM on the suggestion of some here because I'm looking to develop a secular homeschool curriculum with a classical model. I was shocked by the amount of drill and drudgery, not to mention long hours. I've never liked the idea of busy work and see little need for drill of any sort outside of math.

Everything I've read leads me to believe that spelling and grammar are learned and enforced primarily through reading. I remember hating breaking the flow of reading to look up words, so I'd jot down unfamiliar words, look them up after finishing and reread the section/chapter. We'll have good resource materials available instead. If dd gets curious about the finer points of grammar, she won't have to go far to look them up. I'm suspecting that between her reading and my correcting mistakes in her writing she will pick most of it up herself.

They have some great suggestions for resource materials, and I am very attracted to their model of learning history, especially through the reading of literature (though not always their choice of works). Having the child construct timelines is a great idea... though we might do parallel timelines to better illustrate different areas of the world. I heartily agree that latin helps with vocabulary and is a good "second language."

I find the major shortcomings of their approach to be in the sciences and arts. Science decidedly gets a short shrift; while an understanding history of science is critically important in today's quickly changing world... so is actual science. Art and music we will substantially integrate with history. DD will learn drawing and/or drafting seperately (her choice) and can choose whether to continue with an instrument after an appropriate introduction. Religion we'll handle by taking a Joseph Campbell approach.

So I guess what I'm saying is that like most here, we'll follow their core curricula ideas (history and literature) while finding our own way with the rest.

[SRHS]

What is a Joseph Campbell approach to religion?

What science materials are you using?

Any suggestions for good grammar resources vs.course books?

[Sherricp]

It's kind of cool that this thread has gotten more active again since DH got me the book for my birthday after I'd tried to skim it during two different story times at Barnes and Noble. At first I was very enamored of it, much to my surprise, really. I'd been leaning towards a much more child-centered approach (even though I realized a while ago that I won't be unschooling), very "don't worry if your child is a late reader, wait for their interest to develop". Both my DH and I felt a bit envious reading this book, thinking of how much we both longed for a more challenging education than what we got in school. It occurred to me that while I was assuming early elementary aged kids mostly want freedom to pursue their own interests, I really longed to be challenged and would have loved moving rapidly through a book of assignments where I was learning something new with each one.

As we've studied TWTM more, we have more doubts, even though I think this may end up being a primary guide for us when the kids are older (I prefer a Montessori approach that always goes from concrete to abstract for encouraging early reading, so I don't think I would be following TWTM much at all until 1st grade). DH's concern is with the authors' logical fallacies in some passages, especially since one of them is the product of the educational system delineated. I also am asking more, "Okay, if I accept that "Grammar stage" kids want to be challenged, do I agree with the authors on what they want to be challenged with?" Do I really believe that many children need a spelling curriculum that they do work in daily? Is going through a book the best way to learn the principles of phonics to support reading? Yeah, there are things I want my child to memorize, and maybe young children do this better, but is it best to approach everything that way? Science, for example, will be enjoyed more when book work follows observation rather than TWTM's "read encyclopedia, read library books, read more library books and write a page, do an experiment". I would prefer "visit planetarium/plant seed in a cup/do experiment/etc. and write about it, read overview of subject while searching for books, read the books, write about them if you want, but it's no big deal if you just move on to the next experiment without doing extra research (although I do believe in narrating or writing a description first).

Also, I've realized that a lot is going to depend on whether my children and I actually like the curricula they recommend, and while I like their description of why they like Saxon Math at least, I don't automatically trust their judgement enough to just buy what they suggest--although I'm not sure how else I will decide!

Also, I do like the idea of learning Latin early, but I think that they wait too long for learning a second language and seem to favor a book-based, systematic approach as opposed to more of an immersion alternating with instruction approach.

Sherri

[Queen Gwen]

Oh, Sherry, you did a fantastic job of summarizing one of the problems with the science program -- observation and experience *should* come first, THEN go to the books if the child wants to pursue the subject.

We are doing more and more Montessori as we go along. The more we do the more fun it is! As a matter of fact, I need to sign off so I can go work on manipulatives.

Oops! Edited because I just noticed SRHS wants to know what others are using for grammar. We're using Montessori...much of the info is available online. I found lesson sequences for grammar in the 6-9yr. old class at www.moteaco.com/albums/language2.html

I also found a fun language bingo at American Montessori Consulting...I'll have to look for the address later.

Several other sites about Montessori exist, along with some Yahoo Groups dedicated to homeschooling with a Montessori approach.

Here's some things we've done in the past few days with 7yo dd: I introduced the concept of the verb (we'd already done nouns, adjectives and articles). Showed dd the Montessori symbol -- a red ball, which is very moveable and active. Played marionette -- she would hang limp until I gave her a verb on a slip of paper; the verb would bring her to life, just as a verb brings a noun to life. Some verbs, like carry and eat, needed another object to act upon (intro to transitive and intransitive). Played grammar bingo with nouns, articles and verbs. Read an action-packed poem while kids acted out actions (3yo dd likes to get in on alot of this stuff). Told a story while calling attention to action verbs. Still to come - past vs. present, invisible actions (like thinking), work on placement of verb in relation to the object. I'm hoping to start some MadLib-type stuff soon.

[NoHiddenFees]

This is hugely simplified, but Campbell looked at religion and myth in terms of common symbols across different cultures and through time. An example of the latter would be the evolution of the dionysian/bacchic cults to the consuming of the blood of Christ in Catholic mass. While I don't adhere to any particular religious system, I am more than willing to grant that these underlying cross cultural symbols hold a power and represent underlying "truths" that should be repected.

Campbell's materials are too advanced for kids, but I intend to immerse dd in myths and religious tales from many cultures from a very early age. We'll also do folktales. As she gets older, we'll examine similarities and common themes and explore the differences between myth/religion and folktale.

DD is only 14 months, so I haven't started purchasing reference materials yet. I happily made do with the Strunk & White set for grammar and style reference. However, I've always been partial to big reference works and am eyeing English Grammar and Composition: Complete Course by John Warriner. It was recommended by the Colfaxes in Homeschooling for Excellence and sells for about $50. It looks to be appropriate for high school level kids.

[Openskyheart]

Sherri,

You don't have to follow a program to the letter. If you go to the websight:

www.welltrainedmind.com

and start reading the posts of parents there, over time, you will see that there are as many ways to use the ideas as there are people who use them.

You described alot of my concerns about WTM. As I've described before, we heavily modify it and are much more experienced-based in our approach, than book-based (though we read a lot of books too!). Science and art are actually our *main* focuses (because these are my ds' main interests - and we're actually following an "unschooling" approach in these two areas) with math, reading, and writing done a little bit each day. I am a speech language pathologist and have studied and worked with young children for many years. I don't agree with the WTM authors' assessment that*all* grammar stage kids will enjoy rote memorization. In fact, I don't do any rote memorization with either of my own "grammar stage kids." Yet, ask my ds just about anything about animals and he can tell you an astonishing amount of details.

To my surprise, though, he has enjoyed poetry memorization, which I wouldn't have thought to do with him on my own. We also do narrations, though not as often as recommended by WTM. We do maybe two narrations of books we're reading outloud per month, and maybe one or two history narrations per month.

Actually, I've recently come to realize that we are following a more Charlotte Mason approach than a true WTM approach. You might want to check out:

www.amblesideonline.com

to get some information.

With homeschooling, there is unlimited opportunity to experiment, try something and stick with it, or try something and give it up, modify materials to meet your own families needs and preferences. In twelve years of working as an SLP I studied dozens of programs for helping children develop their speech and language skills, but I never stuck with just one - nor did I ever use a program *exactly* as it was originally designed. I always had to modify approaches, be creative, and more often than not, to develop my own techniques unique for each child. My approach to homeschooling is the same.

I also know already that everything my dc and I are doing today that "works" will change. Nothing is permanent.

Laura

[Openskyheart]

Queen Gwen:

Thanks for the Montesorri link. I'm going to go check it our right now!

Laura

[Queen Gwen]

www.amonco.org and scroll down the blue strip on the left to find AMC Grammar Bingo...you can download and printout the game and directions.

I really enjoy Ambleside online. I use alot of their recommendations for read-alouds. I love that most of the stuff is available online or at the library.

Hey, my 7yo dd likes to memorize poetry, too! I was shocked! But, thinking back, I used to do that sort of thing on my own. 3yo dd chimes in on some of the poems, too. We're erratic on narrations. If I *ask* dd to do them she often balks. OTOH, I had checked out a copy of Twelfth Night from the Shakespeare is Fun series, and left it in the pile of library books. I meant to get around to looking it over, suggesting it to dd as a read-aloud (our library lost their copy of Beautiful Stories by Nesbit). Dd found it, read the entire thing, then came running up to me to tell me about the really cool story she just read -- a totally spontaneous narration!

Sherri, sorry for misspelling your name!

Gail