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what's wrong with disney? - Page 2

post #21 of 50
hmm. I am interested by Disney. I find their animation interesting even just from a 'look at its history' standpoint. I find the theme parks and the over done aspect (merchandising)of it all irritating.

We don't have a lot of paraphenila. My daughter has a homemade dress that looks like Belle's dress. her grandma made it. I ordered her a second hand sleeping beauty dress from ebay for her and we have books of the stories.
Which we have read cover to cover along with all the rest of their books about a zillion times.

I'm not fond of a lot of their movies for really small children (my own included) becauase they're awfully dark a lot of the time. There are also too many where parents get killed for my liking. Hello ? We're trashing princesses but what about LIon king where the Uncle kills the Dad? Hello? It was like the most horrible disney movie of all time in my books.
There are some gentler ones... Robin Hood, definitely Cinderella, I've been told the Aristocats (but never seen it). But by and large they are far too nasty for my almost three year old.
The stories, while they reflect really traditional gender roles, are simple to understand and I think there in lies the attraction for many of the small children. Often the motion pictures are very reflective of the times they were made in. So, if the children are old enough to understand that some of the stuff is old fashioned then I think its ok. But most kids under six aren't. As a result, my kids aren't seeing Pinnochio or Peter Pan any time soon. Hell, if you think about it old 'classics' such as 'song of the south' the original briar rabbit story isn't seen anymore becuase it was found to just be really reprehsnible after the civil rights movement.
Disney has never appealed to the sophisticated adult. They have always appealed to the culture of their times.... It isn't even just Disney animation that does this, look at the old Hayley Mills movies from the 60s if you want to see some really bad stereo typing etc.
BUT they can be used as a teaching tool about 'this is how people used to think and we dont' any more because.... and isn't that interesting that people used to think that becuase someone is a boy that they did *** and girls did ***"

In my opinion, many of films should be off limits until the kids can see the stories a bit critically, even 4-7 years old to get some of it....
post #22 of 50
I don't like marketing to children. But until it is illegal, they will keep doing it.
Sad.
Kids don't even understand what commercials are until they are like 10 years old...
post #23 of 50
ya know, lion King is bad. it is justso obvious. but it is also another good example where the child is rebellios, lazy and disobedient, nearly gets everyone killed and winds up the hero because of it. I just don't get that thinking. but yeah, lion king is just so violent and scary. the themes are not at all as subtle as in the princess movies.
post #24 of 50
I don't have any issues with Disney... a cartoon is a cartoon and a corporation is a corporation.

My parents were very controlling and I wasn't allowed to do a lot of stuff as a kid, and as a result it made me deeply resent them and my childhood. Therefore, I will never control what my child chooses to like or watch (unless it's like porn or a horror movie of course.) Same can be said for music, clothes, and the like.

My child is a person, too. I will not control her choices, tastes, and fun activities because of my personal vendettas.
post #25 of 50
I don't mind Disney.

I don't have a problem with dead parents, witch craft, rebellious kids etc.

They are common themes in many folk/ fairy tales in different cultures as an expression of our collective psyche.

The films features all kinds of different themes. Mulan for example showed an empowered young girl, she had two parents and a grandmother.
post #26 of 50
All critiques of the films and quality of products aside, Disney aggressively targets children. They are promoting rampant consumerism and a licensing empire. This alone is worthy enough of dislike. My son does not go to school or watch TV, but somehow he picked up on this "Cinderella" person what with the media blitz of the DVD release of the movie by the great Disney Empire. They sell everything you could ever want plastered with your child's favorite character on it.

Quote:
Some of this image persists, but in the past decade a shadow of discontent has begun to dim the innocent sparkle of the Magic Kingdom. The reality is that Disney has become a multibillion–dollar corporation that in many respects is no different from any other communications giant. The Disney Corporation has been exposed for paying pitiful wages to employees in the Third World, just like other multinationals accused of exploitation, such as Nike.

In its corporate expansion, Disney has acquired a plethora of subsidiaries, including some whose activities — such as producing Hollywood films with lots of sex and violence — do not fit Disney’s traditional image. More generally, Disney engages in aggressive marketing just like any other corporation, undermining the impression that it is part of a different world of magic and innocence.
http://www.firstmonday.org/issues/issue9_6/martin/

Quote:
Disney and his corporate cohorts (Reebok, McDonald’s, KFC, Coke, Armani, Hilfiger et al) are the shock troops for the spread of consumer society. They prime the pump for the endless stream of ‘wants’ created by corporate hucksters. You can take your kids to see the newest Disney animated film, Mulan, and then you can buy the video, the key chain, the stuffed toy, the sweatshirt, the embossed note pad and pencil set. Every Disney animated film comes bundled with a complete marketing strategy for merchandise, interactive games and a line of children’s books.
http://www.newint.org/issue308/guide.htm

Also
http://www.pineight.com/nemo/
http://www.arasite.org/skelldis.htm
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...36/ai_n7584299
post #27 of 50
I love Disney, and always have. I saw my first Disney movie, Snow White, in 1987 when I was about to enter high school, and I was enraptured ever since. To this day, I was so impressed by the level of animation (Snow White was done in the '30s!) and that the characters, even though animated, moved as though they were real people. I guess I was too used to Saturday morning cartoons where there characters don't move or behave as real people. I spent the rest of my teenage years and college years collecting every Disney movie and watching them over and over. Even if you don't like Disney (which I can completely appreciate - I'll get to that later) you do have to admit that Walt Disney (the man) broke new ground in the animation business, and pioneered many of the techniques that are still in use today.

And I also admit that I love the Disney theme parks. I still remember my first visit to Disneyland when I was in 10th grade, and the thing that I still remember to this day was how CLEAN it was! Other amusement parks are always so dirty and littered, but Disney theme parks are immaculate! For that fact alone it's like stepping into a magical world! :LOL DH and I went to Disney World on our honeymoon, and we also took another major trip there before our kids were born.

However, all that said, I do have problems with letting my kids see the movies and becoming "Disney obsessed".

1.) In the older princess movies, the princess is in danger and her prince has to rescue her. I don't want my son growing up thinking women are as pithy as the princesses, and I don't want my daughter thinking women should be helpless. (I do realize that the more current movies do away with this stereotype.)

2.) The characters, especially the heroines, are stick thin with small feet. All the reasons I abhor Barbie are present in the Disney heroines. The only overweight characters are either villains (ex, Ursula from Little Mermaid) or comic relief (any number of the princesses' dads.) Now that I think about it, there are at least 2 "grandmotherly" type overweight characters (Fairy Godmother from Cinderella, Grandmother from Mulan.) Grandmotherly as a trait isn't so bad, but why the need for them to be overweight?

3.) I don't have a problem with the dead mothers (it's used as a literary device) but I do have a problem with them changing the story. My biggest beefs in this regard are with Pocahontas and The Hunchback of Notre Dame. I don't like Pocahontas as a movie at all (bad animation, bad songs) but I LOVE Hunchback. (Stunning artwork, fantastic songs, and a truly psychologically-creepy villain.) But I REALLY dislilke how they changed the true story of Pocahontas, and Victor Hugo's literature.

4.) I don't like the commercialism. This is funny coming from me, as I've got a Mickey watch, Mickey antenna ball, a Disney World license plate frame, and a few Mickey Mouse things around the house. But I have more interests than Disney. For kids, Disney can become obsessive, and the Disney Co. certainly provides the means! They are mega-marketers and they target children. I dislike that for the same reason I dislike fast food chains b/c they target children. That practice is contemptable. (Is that a word?)


My son has seen only a handful of Disney movies. The ones I can think of off the top of my head are Little Mermaid, Lion King, Nemo, and Lady and the Tramp. I have no intention of having my kids see some of my favorite Disney movies while they are this young.

All this said, DH and I are desperately looking forward to our first trip to Disney World as a family! I LOVE Disney World! We've got several years to wait before we go (everyone needs to be potty trained and tall enough to go on the rides!) but taking our kids to "The World" is definitely something DH and I are anxiously anticipating!
post #28 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyka
ya know, lion King is bad. it is justso obvious. but it is also another good example where the child is rebellios, lazy and disobedient, nearly gets everyone killed and winds up the hero because of it.
I must have seen a different Lion King! In the one I saw, Simba wasn't rebellious, lazy, or disobedient! Simba was tricked by his uncle; he was the one who was rebellious, lazy, and disobedient! Simba was doing as he was told!
post #29 of 50
Pocahontus is a travesty. And aggressive marketing is ethically questionable. Children in Chinese factories is a crime against humanity.

But Finding Nemo and the Shrek movies are some of my favs. I also can pass a nice rainy afternoon watching Mary Poppins and Chitty Chitty Bang Bang in my bed with the kids. Oh, and I also like Bednobs and Broomsticks. The Old Home Guard always makes me a little weepy. I think it would have been a much better movie without the animation. ::shiver::

One of my pet issues with Mary Poppins is how Mrs Banks' work in the suffragette movement is trivialized. So it's also a good movie for that conversation.

Witches, dead parents, etc etc are archetype stories and were not invented by Disney. If anything, Disney made these classic stories and worries of humans too cute. Read the original version of Little Mermaid and see what I mean.
post #30 of 50
I really havent read much about the evils of marketing to children. But I cant hold it against Disney that they are a multinational corporation and that they are going to behave like a multinational corporation. I am under no illusions that the company that has such wonderful (and to refer to PP ) CLEAN theme parks and makes the majority of childrens movies is not going to make any money. THat is how they system works.
It doesnt concern me. I like their products. (Movies and theme parks, not endless plastic non imaginative toys).
I also think Microsoft makes a good product. And you wont find me refusing to use their products or hating them because they are successful.
I am glad that Disney is successful. I woudl be very saddenned if they went under and closed Disneyland and stopped making movies. I for one think that most of the non-disney childrens movies have too many adult themes and often arent for kids at all.
Disney is not innocent. But that is not a condition I expect of any company.
And when Disney buys a network or a regular movie production company I dont expect to see everythign turn G rated. I have no objection that they make different products aimed at different groups.
And as long as we live in a world where parents are vying to buy their childrens love with things rather than time, who am I to blame companies like Disney and McDonalds for giving them somethign to spend their money on.
In fact, think of what ELSE they have to compete with. If my child was watching commercial television and sawa commerical for a Little Mermaid tea set and another for a temporary tatoo dance club party Bratz doll, at least the Bratz doll has some more appropriate (in my view) competition.

Joline
post #31 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahogny
I must have seen a different Lion King! In the one I saw, Simba wasn't rebellious, lazy, or disobedient! Simba was tricked by his uncle; he was the one who was rebellious, lazy, and disobedient! Simba was doing as he was told!
post #32 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyka
ya know, lion King is bad. it is justso obvious. but it is also another good example where the child is rebellios, lazy and disobedient, nearly gets everyone killed and winds up the hero because of it. I just don't get that thinking. but yeah, lion king is just so violent and scary. the themes are not at all as subtle as in the princess movies.
Um he was disobedient once, his dad rescued him. Dad was the hero. Boy learned about trusting his father.And a lesson about responsibility and not "getting what you want all the time" I thought it was a pretty good lesson.
I never saw anybody became a hero out of being rebellious and disobedient.
Even the little mermaid who was rebellious and disobedient eventually learned that she had made a huge mistake and had to rescued by her father, who then showed her unconditional love regardless of her mistake. And she matures and decides to try to make good.
If she becomes a hero in the end it is only because of the right decisions she made and not the poor ones she had made earlier.

That said some of the villains are way too scary for me and I avoid those whose villians are really "evil" or fast forward through their one "look how evil I am " song
post #33 of 50
The Lion King is a disneyized version of Hamlet. Would you toss out Shakespeare too?


Besides that, I have some mixed feelings about disney - as it seems many posters do. I have several family members who work for disney. As far as things go in the US they are wonderfully family oriented and it is a fantasric company to work for. I can't speak to conditions in factories that produce their goods or parks and departments in other parts of the world - I don't have info on that.

I feel very nostalgic about many of the movies, characters and theme parks. I want my children to experience them. I don't appreciate sexist messages of women that need to be rescued, or powerful women being evil, but many of these stories are centuries old - not disney created. I feel for our family - balance is the key. We aren't big tv watchers anyway - and there are many wonderful books (The Paper Bag Princess, Atalanta, The Princess Knight, etc.) that include fairytale themes, but have strong women protagonists.

Disney is much better than some of the crap that's coming out these days!
post #34 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaraboosMama
Disney is much better than some of the crap that's coming out these days!
I agree. And I would like to add that the movies do reflect the time they were made. Newer movies do have strong female roles who are just as likely to find a solution themselves or rescue the guy as be rescued.
I cant blame them for making such films 50 years ago though.
Mulan saved China, Pocahontas negotiated a temporary peace between her people and put her life on the line to stop the bloodshed. The LIttle MErmaid had to be rescued by her dad, sure, but she did rescue the prince not once but twice. Belle rescued the Beast, not the other way around. (and her father to boot).
So while Disney does have sexist movies, I do not think the overall message to girls is that they have to hang around and wait to be rescued. (as long as you balance the princess movies with others)
Joline
post #35 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaraboosMama
The Lion King is a disneyized version of Hamlet. Would you toss out Shakespeare too?
No but I sure as hell wouldn't show it to very small children and think it was appropriate.
post #36 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by annabanana
what troubles me more, is the fact that disney alters the original endings, and makes everything sugary sweet (from what i gather, i haven't seen anything disney except for 'finding nemo').

i believe that children should be exposed to a variety of emotions (age appropriate). if Andersen's little mermaid, does not get her feet back, and does not get the prince. it is a wonderful, souldful story.
It sounds like you already have a wonderful argument here! There are so many wonderful books that retell these stories also, much more beautiful and subtler than the Disney movies.

Disney has become a huge corporation with a marketing package which happens to center around an image of the clean, "perfect", shallow family and sugary sweet child life. Yes, marketing is part of being a corporation, but there are other alternatives that are more beneficial/less harmful to our psyches, so why not patronize them instead, when possible? I am particularly turned off by the recent strategy of consolidating a bunch of heroines to sell "Disney Princesses" junk. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that even if there's a market, it is unethical in our society to try to hook little girls on a gender-stereotyped self-image of idealized...pinkness. (Just as it would be unethical to market ethnic stereotypes -- but wait, Disney does that, too...) Kids deserve smarter, deeper, better, more! Like that PBS commercial with the goldfish. Man, I loved that commercial. :: wipes away tear::
post #37 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by johub
I really havent read much about the evils of marketing to children. But I cant hold it against Disney that they are a multinational corporation and that they are going to behave like a multinational corporation. I am under no illusions that the company that has such wonderful (and to refer to PP ) CLEAN theme parks and makes the majority of childrens movies is not going to make any money. THat is how they system works.
Joline
When I worked in NYC and had frequent meetings with Radio Disney salespeople, I was convinced that Disney was the anti-christ. To sit in a room while people strategize about how to sell products to small children, track the kids' online movements through cookies, and how to get kids to nag their folks for whatever was being advertised that week was horrifying. And I wasn't even a mom yet! I didn't mind them advertising Disney merchandise, because Joline's right - that's the deal, and it's very aboveboard. But using the parent-perceived *safe* Disney image to endorse whatever advertisers will fork over the $$$ to advertise on Radio Disney was just sick to me.

That being said, I do like some of the movies, don't mind buying the merchandise for my daughter, and love most of the music from their films. I don't let DD watch many of the movies, except Cinderella, and a heavily-edited Little Mermaid. We do plan to visit WDW sometime, and I let my DD dress up like the characters, and we play Disney music on the piano together.

So I no longer think they're the anti-christ, but I am wary about them, and don't have blanket trust in their movies' appropriateness, just because of the Disney brand.
post #38 of 50
There is a really amazing documentary "Mickey Mouse Monopoly" that analyzes Disney movies and explains how they promote racism, sexism and violence. I did a major research paper about classism in Disney films as well.
post #39 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmyB
The Disney Corporation is particulary evil because of their involvement in passing the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act which they did in order to keep the Mickey Mouse cartoon character from entering the public domain. (When a copyright expires, anybody may use the work free of charge). The copyright extension is absolutely stifling to artists and writers.
It is not only Mickey they are protecting , it is ALL their characters. Which means they have copywrited characters that they took from the public domain! They are benefitting from something they have a stranglehold on now.
post #40 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahogny
I must have seen a different Lion King! In the one I saw, Simba wasn't rebellious, lazy, or disobedient! Simba was tricked by his uncle; he was the one who was rebellious, lazy, and disobedient! Simba was doing as he was told!
Simba is screwing around and going places where he has been told not to go and doing things he has been told not to do, starts a stampede, nearly gets everyone killed, gets in trouble so he ran away because he didn't like his parents rules, grew up living the lazy life with pumba and timon and comes back when he decided he wants more from life, finds his family misreable. we will never know what would have happened if he had listened to fathers wisdom and done as he should.

and hamlet. I see nothing of hamlet in that movie.
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