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If not CIO, then what? - Page 4

post #61 of 107
Hugs to you OP. I know what it's like to be sleep deprived. Although my dd sleeps fine at the moment, we had rocky times--especially when I had to nurse 8-12 x per day while pumping 6 x per day. I got NO sleep and then finally realized if mama ain't happy ain't nobody happy. I think a pp's idea for you to have a Mommy Sleep Day is wonderful. You deserve it and it sounds like you need it.

I know it seems like you'll never get sleep and get your braing back -- it was hard to me to realize that when I had my own troubles -- but the time really does pass and these few weeks or one month will seem like small potatoes in the future.
post #62 of 107
oh, my goodness. I have so been in your shoes. Months 5-7 were horrendous on us...around 6.5 months she started sleeping great but then those darn teeth started coming in. At almost 9 months things are vastly improved but then now she's sick and possibly teething some more, so, nightwakings again.

I remember feeling just like you and it was so tough. We didn't cosleep either even though we tried really hard, it just wasn't an option. DD just doesn't sleep well with us. She wouldn't sleep more than 7 hours total in a night and that's nowhere near enough for her. It's so frustrating to be trying to be AP and then you run up against these hurdles and the only option anyone has for you is cosleeping. No offense to those who keep suggesting it, but it really doesn't work for everyone. Plus everyone assumes you can sleep through nursing. I'm a finicky sleeper and I can't, so cosleeping really didn't do any of us any good. And I can't nap. I just can't fall asleep during the day so none of the suggestions for sleeping when they sleep, or catching up on the weekend worked. I tell you all of this just so you know that I understand your sheer desperation. For awhile my DD didn't want to go back to sleep after her wakings at all. But she was miserable while awake. I was so sleep deprived and depressed that I literally was worried about my ability to mother her. And now, honestly, I don't really remember much of it or how it got better other than waiting it out.

I'm wondering if sharing a room with your DD is causing some of the wakings. Have you tried a white noise machine to block out some of the normal night noises everyone makes? Could you try for one night having DD sleep with you guys to see if he does better alone? Have you ruled out teething? If you're ok with it you may want to try some tylenol or advil to see if that helps. The homeopathic stuff never helped my DD. Have you tried tanking him up during the afternoon/evening? I'm betting he's not all that hungry though from what you've said so that may not help.

For us the main cause of her wakings was so many milestones. She started crawling, clapping, and pulling up all in the same couple of weeks so her brain was just on overload. I bet that's a contributing factor. It's an exciting time for your little guy!

I know, know, know that this isn't going to make you feel a whole lot better, but try to keep perspective. Yes, this is wretched and difficult right now. But remember this little baby will someday be a teenager who 1) probably won't ever want to get out of bed and 2) would be horrified if you wanted snuggles a few times a night. Try to see the good part of it...your son loves and needs you so much that he can't bear to sleep without you for more than a couple of hours. You are everything to him right now and won't be forever, so try to enjoy it as much as you can.
post #63 of 107
AmieV, that was so sweet!!! Thanks for the "warm fuzzies"!
post #64 of 107
Thread Starter 
Thanks AmieV! Your post was very sweet and made my morning!

We did try moving DD into our bed for a couple of nights and it didn't seem to help DS. We did put on a fan (blowing into the corner) for white noise last week, and although it didn't help DS, it did help DD sleep through DS's awakenings - she hardly wakes at all anymore. Definately could be teething - he got his bottom 2 a couple weeks ago, and he most likely is working on some more. I have notices that when I give him ibuprofen before bedtime, he will sleep better the first part of the night, but I hate giving him medicine as routine when I'm not positive that is the problem. But maybe I should - ugh, so confused. Tanking him up didn't do a bit of good (like you said, I don't think he's waking from hunger) - I fed him right before I went to bed, and he still woke at 11pm on the dot (he's a snuggly Timex!). And lastly - the milestones, he is definately working on a lot of stuff. In the last week or so, he has been getting up on all fours and really really trying to crawl, and he's also been trying to pull up on things. So that could be it too.

You know, we tried a sleep day on Saturday - and like you - I couldn't sleep!!!! I was so po'd! DH woke with the kids, then successfully put DS to 1st nap without nursing, then took DD out to do errands (she's great with him when I'm not around). Nice quiet house, nice soft bed - absolutely no Zzzzzzz's from momma. I laid in bed for over an hour wide awake before DS woke from his nap. I guess we can't manipulate our clocks either! Oh well.
post #65 of 107
It took me a long time to learn to nap in the daytime. I just told myself that even lying still in bed was doing my exhausted body more good than being up and about, and sometimes I practiced relaxation exercises (tense up the different muscle groups, then consciously relax them).

Even though you couldn't fall asleep, give your dh big praise for waking the kids and getting ds down for his nap without nursing. That will encourage him to continue doing it.

I always figure that if the ibuprofen makes the baby sleep longer, then the baby was waking due to some sort of pain. Ibuprofen is not a sleep-inducing drug like cough syrup, after all. I think it is a great drug and very safe for anybody with normal liver function who doesn't drink too much alcohol.
post #66 of 107
Bring his crib into your room and side car it. My DS woke every 90 mins to 2 hours until he was 18 months old. He nursed back to sleep every time. He did not sleep entirely through the night (6 hours straight) until he was 2 and didn't go longer than that until he transitioned to his full sized bed in his own room at 2.5 years old. After he weaned at 23 months, he woke up every night at some point for a glass of water.

A 6 month old is not old enough to go back to sleep alone, and, IMO, isn't old enough to be sleeping alone in another room. If you need a smaller option, maybe get a pack n play for baby to sleep in next to your bed.

Good luck!
post #67 of 107
I just read this entire thread, and at first I was really pissed off because it felt to me like a number of people were saying, "what's your problem? Babies are supposed to wake up a lot and you're supposed to suck it up!" After that, you received a lot more sympathetic and potentially practical advice, so I won't type up the angry rant I was internally composing on your behalf.

I will say this- my first son woke constantly. We tried a bunch of things after he turned one, and he still woke about every two hours until after he was THREE. So to those who subscribe to the "this too shall pass" philosophy, 3 years is a really long time to go without sleep; it's not good for anyone in the family; and some kids just never reach this magical developmental point on their own where they start sleeping through the night without waking you up.

Our daughter is now 12 months old and also nightwakes nearly as much. We tried gentle methods starting much earlier with her (the Pantley book does have a lot of ideas), but really, nothing seems to have been much help. (I have sleeping trouble myself; there may be a genetic or prenatal-hormone link- who knows.)

I know exactly what you mean about the baby not seeming to need to eat so often at night, and I disagree with the folks who claim that a baby that demands all-night nursing actually "needs" all-night nursing at 6 months. For my own sanity, my husband is in charge of comforting my daughter until it's been at least 3 hours since she last ate at night, and even with that stretch (oooh, a whole 3 hours!) she isn't eating efficiently.

My best advice is to get as much sleep as you can, even if that means trading off with your husband more than you'd like, as other people have suggested. I guess I really don't have much to add to others' comments, but something about this thread just bugged me, so I felt compelled to reply anyway.
post #68 of 107
Sometimes the answer isn't nurse or cry. i would experiment a bit with sleeping conditions to make your baby more comfortable. My daughter is very sensitive to stimulation and frequent night nursing was basically making her environment more tolerable for her. eventually i figured out what kinds of things helped her sleep more comfortably. In my childs situation it turns out she had food allergies. She had gas, stomach cramping, and itchy dry skin. No wonder she woke up frequently and slept so restlessly! i'm so glad i didn't let her cry it out. i eliminated dairy from my diet and her skin cleared up and she slept better. still not great, but better. also my daughter is very sensitive to temperature and sound. i experimented with how much to clothe her in at night and found she sleeps best in pj's and a blanket sleeper over that. also every little sound woke her, so we started using a white noise machine to mask noises. that helped too. the whole first year, my daughter woke 4-6 times a night. she took 1-2 hours to fall asleep and at at least one of her night wakings was up tossing and turning unable to sleep for 1-2 hours. but eventually she slept through the night. to this day at age 2 1/2 she still takes awhile to fall asleep, not as bad, but it takes 30 min to an hour, but she sleeps comfortably through the night on her futon with lots of pillows and blankets with her white noise machine and room darkening shade! Some kids are very sensitive to noise or light or physical sensations like scratchy clothing, etc. oh, yeah, only 100% cotton pj's, no polyester. my advice is that if your child is waking that frequently he is probably uncomfortable. the nursing might be soothing. but i would try to figure out what is causing the discomfort. i didn't read through all the other posts so i may be repeating some stuff. oh, and if i even remotely thought it could be teething pain or something i gave tylenol at bedtime and had a dose pre-preared and ready for the middle of the night.
post #69 of 107
my son started waking to nurse several times a night when he was 9 mths, after not needed to nurse at night for several months. after about a week of frequent night nursing, i began to feel that he really didn't need the food, just the comfort and began to experiment with other ways to get him to sleep. in his case, i found that pacing the floor while holding him actually worked, much to my surprise. it was exhausting, as he weighs 25 pounds, but after 2 nights of this he stopped wanting to nurse at night (except once early in the morning). he still wakes frequently, but i can get him back to sleep pretty quickly without nursing OR pacing, just soothing him in his crib and at some point i move him into bed with me. my point is that maybe experimenting with different ways to get him to sleep would help, and once he can sleep without nursing he might require less to return to sleep. NCSS recommends this also. i agree with your original instinct that he is probably not waking because he needs the nutrition, but more likely just for soothing, and you might find another way to meet his needs that would either lead to less waking or at least less effort on your part. i also agree with the mamas who encourage you to do whatever you can to get some sleep - it really is important, although understandably difficult. good luck!
post #70 of 107
Thread Starter 
I just wanted to say thanks to all of you who have shared your stories and offered thoughts on how to improve our situation. At least I know that I am not a lone traveller on this vessel, and for some reason, that alone seems to help.

Unfortunately no good news to report in the snooze department. We had his meds adjusted for reflux and added a bedtime antacid with no change in his sleeping pattern. We then gave him ibuprofen and Hylands tablets for teething (he has been chewing on EVERYTHING lately), with the same results. If anything, he is actually sleeping worse. Whereas, previously he was giving us on early leg of 3-4 hours of sleep, he is now waking at 10pm to start the pattern of every 1.5-2 hours of waking. And is wanting to start his day at 4:30!!! Ugh - nothing like doing a sink full of dishes while DS blissfully rolls about on the floor before the sparrows have even THOUGHT about waking for their day! Of course, he is ready for his nap at 6:30am right as his sister is getting up. Impeccible timing. I had a nice twitch in my eye all day yesterday - very attractive.

My DH is off the week of Thanksgiving, so the plan will be for him to try to get DS back to sleep if he has woken before 3 hours have passed since his last nursing session. I am really hoping that a full week of DH responding will encourage him to sleep through those awakenings and just wake at those times I nurse him. Fingers crossed......
post #71 of 107
Big to you mama. I'm glad to see the tone of the responses has changed since the first page. :

I think we all need to try to really listen to each other with compassion. When a mama is asking for help...it's because she needs help...not to be told that she needs to change her attitude.

Night-time parenting has been a tough one for me since day one. I have a hard time waking up completely and I wake up really angry.

I martyred my way through -- not letting DH help because, like the OP I was concerned about his safety while driving a long distance to and from work -- and often resented my baby for it. We just recently night-weaned our 17 month old and it has been the best thing for both of us.

One of my friends has a 6 mo DS and she realized that his night-waking was really affecting how she felt about him and herself and her DH in a very negative way. She was so against the idea of sleep-training of any kind and wanted to be 100% child-led but finally hit bottom and realized she had to re-evaluate what she was doing and why. For her it was waking up in the morning and not wanting to see her baby that flipped the switch in her brain that what she was doing wasn't working for her.

She chose to use methods described in the Baby Whisper and had really positive results. (I've often seen that book maligned here on MDC, but just thought I'd mention it because a few of my postnatal yoga students - who are all gentle, loving mamas - have found it to be helpful.)

Does your DS take a paci? That has been our saving grace because she will take a paci and snuggle from DH. (We had to figure something out since I worked two evenings a week and DH needed to be able to console her.)

Quote:
My DH is off the week of Thanksgiving, so the plan will be for him to try to get DS back to sleep if he has woken before 3 hours have passed since his last nursing session. I am really hoping that a full week of DH responding will encourage him to sleep through those awakenings and just wake at those times I nurse him. Fingers crossed......
Fingers crossed for you!! Sounds like a good plan.

Our general approach has been to try what feels right and see how she responds. If it doesn't work, we try something else.

I also made an effort to really appreciate DH and his efforts with night-time parenting -- backrubs, drop him e-mails at work telling him what a great papa he is etc. -- because the constant waking (for the first few nights) was really tough on him.

Good luck mama!!

~Erin
post #72 of 107
Addie's mom, my dh has the week after thanksgiving off and we are planning the same exact thing! It worked for our ds.

About the not being able to fall asleep. I had the SAME problem I swear.
But like the pp mentioned. Just lying there relaxing is a good start.
But here is what really did it for me. It took patience but here is what I would do. If I wanted to take a nap I would set a timer and tell myself that I had to lay on the couch with my eyes closed until the timer went off.
And here's the kicker. Whenever my mind tried to wander and think of all the stuff I should be doing (or just run on and on and keep me awake) I would stop it by forcing myself to think of the color blue.
You could pick anything completely boring and not really worthy of thought. But I used the color blue as my zen focus.
And just making myself keep my eyes closed (even when I felt restless and wanted to get up) and by replacing intruding thoughts with a single thought that had nowhere to go. I eventually started falling asleep. Usually within just a few minutes.
See you cant make your mind stop thinking about stuff. Because just thinking "I have to stop thinking about x" is really a way of thinking about X. It is impossible to think about nothing. So it really helps to think about something. But just not something interesting enough to keep you awake.
Anyway, that was a great try and I am so sorry you did not get the rest you desparately need. Dont give up mama!
Joline
post #73 of 107
Kim,
I MORE than understand where you are coming from! I am living it to! AND our children our the same age! My 2nd DD was born 4/28/05 and just had her 6mo. check up this morning where her doc told me, after I described to her how she is still not sleeping very long stretches, to let her CIO. :

My DD has never been a very good sleeper. It's not so hard to get her to sleep but it's getting her to STAY asleep! She too wakes up about every 2-2.5hrs. sometimes hourly if she's sick/teething/growth spurt. It's completely and utterly exhausting!!!!

I hear ya' and get what you are saying. I do not expect my DD to sleep soundly from 8p.m. to 7a.m. either but I certainly would like to think that she could go 3 maybe even 4 hrs. b/t needing to get up and eat. Our difference is I am not nursing anymore (Loooooong story) and DD gets bottles of formula.

I've tried co-sleeping with both of my children and it just doesn't seem to be for us. Not b/c of a space issue, as with you, but because both me and my children seem to be very light sleepers. If I were to sleep with DD I couldn't move a muscle or she'd wake up. Then, as you mentioned, I'd have to start the 20min. process all over again!

One thing we've been doing lately is not giving her a bottle every time she wakes up but instead giving her her pacifier or just rocking her back to sleep or patting her on the butt. Can't tell for sure if it's working but she has shown some more random moments of 3-3.5hrs. of sleep!

Feel free to pm me if you wish and know that I am SO here for you and that we are literally in the same boat with our children! Maybe together we can find something that works for us, by sharing different tactics, etc.
post #74 of 107

I didn't wanna read and run without a hug for you. Hang in there mama this shall pass. Continue to nurse him at night when he wants and before you know it'll all be over.
It is hard but whoever said parenting was easy!
post #75 of 107
Thread Starter 
Hey Dolfinluvr! Sorry you are in the trenches too! DS's ped appt is next week and I am curious as to what she will say - maybe I'll just tell her he is sleeping fine so as not to get the CIO lecture. I just so wish that things were different right now. Hard to believe that he was sleeping better at 6 weeks than now at 6 mos! My DS is the same as your DD - not tough getting to sleep, but can not STAY asleep. This am I brought him into bed at 4am and he just tossed, turned, scrapped and squeaked until DH got up for work at 5:30 and took DS with him. Oh well. It's just tough keeping an even keel all day especially with my spirited DD on the go all day. How is your DD1 - are you able to have a little down time during the day.

Joline - good luck to you! Only 2 more weeks! DH is willing to do it now, but the last thing I need to be concerned about is him driving 2 hours on 4 hours of (disrupted) sleep. Thanks for the relaxation tips - I'll try it this weekend if I can convince DH to take DD out again.
post #76 of 107
I seem to be one of the few posters who get it that you're not going to co-sleep. First things first. Your baby is going through a very normal physiological process. A six month growth spurt. And, other pps were correct in writing that your milkmaking hormones are highest at night, thus, physiologically, this is the logical time for an infant to do the most work to get the most milk! So. Since we've already established that you're not going to co-sleep, therefore you are going to be losing significant amounts of sleep, let's see if we can get you as much rest as possible, shall we? You know to get to ds as soon as possible (when he's stirring, rather than crying), right? If you're a light sleeper this shouldn't be a problem. THis will help him to get back to sleep sooner because he's less fully awake. It will also keep dd from waking up. Next. Find yourself a caregiver in the afternoons. It could be a grandparent. Or not. If you don't live near gparents, then call the local senior center. Find this out. If you'd be willing to drive one of their seniors to the grocery two times a week, would they be willing to sit w/dd while you nap, before you bring them home from the grocery? Or, contact a homeschooling group. Is there an older homeschooler who'd be willing to swap you babysitting a five to ten hours a week while you sleep, for the teaching of some skill you posess(sewing, crochet, music, etc)? How about another local mom? Would she be willing to take dd while you sleep in the morning if you take her child while she runs errands in the afternoon? We all know that running errands gets done SO MUCH faster when you don't have little ones in tow. What about church? If you attend a church (or etc), is there a young adult getting to ready to make a sacrament that needs service/volunteer hours (this goes for local high schools, too...some of them require specific numbers of hours per student as a graduation requirement)? You'd be the perfect set-up. They can sit w/your three year old while you sleep, and also fold some laundry/unload the diswasher. You can use one or all of these options (iene a day, to spread out some of the hours).

Also. Your husband, whether he's "the type" or not, if he wants to sleep in his own bed, is going to have to give you a hand both with the kids and around the house. For your part, start making a menu for six weeks at a time. Go to the library and get some crock-pot and "quick" meal cookbooks. Make soup one night, breakfast one night. A roast one night. Veggie one night. Same category same night each week (this quickens the pace while meal planning). Then, grocery shop for the week. Use your crock pot. Make all the parts ahead that you can. Have dinner on the table with less effort in less time. While you're cooking have the sink full of hot soapy water and clean up as you go. Then, have your dd bring her plate to the sink. She is old enough. Same for husband. Then clean up together *before* bedtime.

This next little bit is VERY important, and helped me soooo much. For the next week, put dd down WITH your husband. Whatever the routine is, you do it together. Then, for the next three days or so, you sit there as he does everything. THEN. You "go out" somewhere for the next few days. I used to just go snooze in the car. When dd is aware that you're "gone" and she doesn't have any choice BUT dad, things'll go easier for him. Then, when she's used to dad (and yes, she'll cry for you) you let him do it all all the time. You, are not a control freak(or if you value your sleep, you'll learn quickly NOT to be), and are aware that you will be a much more fun and happy mommy with some personal time and some rest under your belt. Also, you married the man and made babies with the man. You trust his abilities and his love for his children. He works long hours, and doesn't get to see them as much as he'd most likely love to. He DESERVES, as does your daughter, the time to get to know his little girl. Now. When you put ds down, go to bed for an hour while dd and daddy go through the bedtime routine. Then, have dh come in and get you. Snuggle together and talk about your day for a few minutes. Then, if you're still tired after your daytime nap and this evening nap, go to sleep for good until ds wakes. I did this for MONTHS (into the double digits)after my dd was born, and for at least three months after ds was born. It really made a difference in my ability to function as a human being, a wife, and a parent. In fact, for the first nursing of the evening, dh would bring baby to me and then put them back, too, so HE was responsible for moving the baby and my feet never left the floor...more rest.

My DH works from five thirty in the morning until six thirty or seven in the evening most days. He misses the kids, and spends as much time with them as he can. He gets up with them in the morning on the weekends and brings me the baby when it needs to nurse, until I wake up. They have all benefitted from the time they spend without me, imposing my "mommy" style of parenting. Most of the time? They don't get fruit with their breakfast when dh feeds it to them. That drives me crazy...but not crazy *enough* to miss out on my only real sleep opportunity of the week! I give them extra fruit during the day, problem solved.

I guess my point in all this is, if you really want a solution, and not just to cry about your lack of sleep (and, hey there's nothing wrong with looking for a shoulder, either...we've all been there), there IS a solution, or several, with which you can live. You just have to be proactive, and believe that you will sleep again, even normal hours, one day. Please, be proactive. Make some phone calls. Do some favor swapping. It doesn't have to cost you a thing. We don't have two pennies to rub together, but we were creative! So, good luck.
post #77 of 107
A couple of things that worked for me in utter desperation for sleep - I used the swing at nights sometimes - I'd sleep on the couch with the swing on right next to me. I'm not a big advocate for swings but dd always would conk out with one. I also would put on a baby einstein video if a 3 am waking wasn't going back to sleep - with dd in the swing and I slept on the couch. I know it's not what others might have approved of as good parenting but I would wake up easily if she cried or anything. I was desperate. She was strapped in very well and not pulling out or anything. There were times when tv and the swing saved me in the middle of the night (after ruling out all other causes of waking).

Also at times when I really needed sleep and couldn't fall asleep - I take just a few sips of wine or a small glass worth. Not enough to pass on to dd through nursing but settled my nerves when I was living on adrenaline paranoia that I'd fall asleep during the day. I did this when dh would be home and watching dd and I had time to nap but couldn't fall asleep. It wears off quickly enough that you can wake back up to care for your child if needs be.

Hope thanksgiving week works for you well.

We're also moving toward having daddy be more invovled in bedtime with my 2 yo and we've both realized that it will take him time to develop the soothing tools for their unique relationship and that I don't need to hover and fix it. It is important for her to learn how to be soothed by daddy at times just as it took a while for her to learn how to be quickly soothed by me (when non-hungry crying). My dd is still nursing but dh does the bedtime stuff and has her laying down and cuddling and whenever she asks for nursies I come in and nurse her to sleep. But just wanted to agree with the other posters who said it's an important part of your daughter's relationship with her father to let him soothe her at times like bedtime, etc. They need a special thing that is "theirs" and bedtime could be it. It is something she'll have to learn to trust daddy can soothe her but it's something she might miss out on if she doesn't eventually learn. You're pushing yourself really hard to meet everyone's needs but you're running out of gas by not atleast somewhat meeting your own. I hope you find a solution soon that works for you! Fortunately as time goes by you are hopefully one day closer each day to your baby just outgrowing the whole thing. I think survival is key here for everyone - especially you!
post #78 of 107
Thread Starter 
Hey - I just wanted to give everyone a quick update.....

We couldn't wait till Thanksgiving week - last Friday he started waking every 45 minutes. I would go in to nurse him, he would fall asleep, I would put him back in his bed, he would wake anywhere from 5 to 45 minutes later. By 1am, I brought him into bed with me and DH. He was even worse - he just didn't sleep at all for 2.5 hours. He would nurse, pull off, scratch, try to crawl off the bed, fuss, and eventually cry. By 4am he was back in his crib, where he fell asleep for...........wait for it.........45 minutes. Ugh - back to square 1.

Soooooo - DH and I agreed that Saturday night he would go in to soothe DS if he woke before midnight, and again if he woke before 4 or 5. The first 2 nights DH was up a bunch - DH rocked and rocked and sang and snuggled (he's such a good daddy!) until he fell asleep (DD didn't wake once!). We also agreed that if it didn't seem as though DS would fall asleep without nursing, or seemed at all hungry, DH would come get me to nurse. But each time he fell asleep relatively easily - settled right into DH's shoulder.

Fast forward to last night - DS SLEPT FROM 7:30 TO 2:45!!!! He went back down at 3am then was up again at 6am!!!! Of course, I still woke up every hour waiting for him, but whatever! Hopefully a couple more nights of this and my body will calm down and allow me to sleep 7 hours straight too!

Equally good news - DH came home last night and told me that he has been transferred to an office.............20 minutes from here!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG - I feel like I have won the lottery!!!!!!!!! :
post #79 of 107
Aren't days like that the best? Good for you!
post #80 of 107
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