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What causes autism? - Page 12

post #221 of 306
I'm not sure what causes autism. Though after frequenting this forum and reading many of MT's posts, I'd say vaccines and a host of other environmental/lifestyle factors, like poor diet and exposure to certain chemicals via household products and such were definitely culprits.

Off topic, I'd like to publicly admire MT for her exemplary reasoning and research skills. Teach me!
post #222 of 306
Deborah is the better teacher. She works in a library now, and therefore is very au fait with what goes on in USA. I don't live in USA.

My skills are very basic coming from the dinosaur pre-computer era. I was taught lateral thinking, and always understood where de Bono was coming from. Though I have to admit that I was pro-vaccine until the birth of our first child. But there was enough thinking ability there to ask the right questions.

I was a very average student at school, and have always been aware of my limitations in some areas. That has turned out to be an asset in that because I know my memory can't be relied upon, I've a comprehensive filing system, and I've always checked everything scrupulously. Whereas I know much brighter people than me, who've relied on their memories, and made major bloopers and have paid the price. So "insecurity" that I've missed something, makes me very thorough in what I do.

Therefore, if I can do this, anyone can do it. It just takes patience, and learning how to think.

The skills are transferable. I came to USA once, and landed in a hospital after falling down a stair-well. Though the language was all different, and triage was so totally different I had to be on the ball, I made sure that I got an explanation for everything and once I was up to the ball on their words and meaning, gave them a run for their money.

They wanted to do MRIs and all that stuff "just in case" but because I knew enough, I didn't want to do that, because I could see no evidence of a back fracture. A winter colour scheme yes, and a wrecked left ankle, but not a back fracture.

The interesting thing was that it was a wife of an orthopaedic surgeon who was the CEO of the woman's city's main hospital, who took me there. She had never been with someone in hospital, who was respectfully asking accountability, and was intrigued with how I handled it. She took notes (having nothing else to do) and as a result, some things in her husband's hospital were changed.

One funny thing. I know my normal blood pressure, and it doesn't rise when I go to hospital, which is a mark of the comfort I feel in dealing with medical people. They don't scare me.

So they took my blood pressure, but it was a different reading to what I was used to, and made no sense. I couldn't see the correlation between those figures an my normal ones...

Shortly afterwards, and man came in and removed the BP machine out of the wall and replaced it. They took it again. He came back and replaced it again. This time I asked the doc what the problem was, and she said the numbers weren't right. So I said that I didn't understand the numbers on the machine, but that my blood pressure in hospital was usually about 120/60.

She said "Are you sure?" I said "Absolutely. I can tell you every blood pressure reading for each month of both my pregnancies as well..." Aparrently the figures translated back to 120/60, which it "shouldn't" have been, having fallen down a stair well 24 hours before...

Just then the man came back with another machine, and she said "No, you don't need to. It's not the machine. It's the patient."

I said "There is nothing wrong with me. If you'd asked me what my b/p is normally, I could have told you, and then he needn't have bothered at all."

Her reply was "most people don't know what blood pressure is, let alone what their figures are." I just said "Most people are not me."

In the end, she gave me her card, and I sent her some stuff on this country as she was coming her shortly afterwards for a holiday.
post #223 of 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
Join the club. Maybe we should start the "Know Nothing" subtribe .
I'll join! :
Deborah

[The biggest advantage I've found to getting older and older is knowing how little I know Doesn't quite counterbalance the hot flashes ]
post #224 of 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
Finaaalllly..... Holmes comes to the party!!

About time SH.

... what took you so long?
Hi, MT.

Well, finding time is a big factor and reading the interesting posts and links, don't require as much thought as posting. By the time I've written a response to the posts that have fired me up, the threads have often been pulled, or everyone has said more or less what I wanted to say, or the discussion has moved on! :
post #225 of 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
IMO, since I've never seen anyone with autism with a normally functioning immune system, I'd say that autism is most likely a response to a deranged immune system which can be caused by many things, some of which can be reversed, but some of which may not be able to be reversed.

Mercury would be the most obvious and prevalent since it was relentlessly stuck into kids, but that's not the only trigger.

To me, autism in a child is the end point of a game of dominoes. I believe other things have to keel over in succession before a child becomes "autistic", and sometimes its very hard, except in retrospect, working out what all those other things are.
Would you say the children with autism you have seen have all been vaccine-injured, MT?

And, are there any vaccine-injured children you know who do not have autistic behaviours?

You see, I wonder which came first, the deranged immune system or the vaccine that caused the deranged immune system.

And as autism can be acquired after severe brain injury or an encephalitis, the presence of mercury alone in the brain would seem to me be sufficient to disrupt the function of neurons and lead to autism. (The Burbacher study would appear to support this.)

Therefore even a properly functioning immune system would be no guarantee of protection from neurotoxins and toxins in vaccines * and “autism”. The first vaccine might be enough to cause encephalopathy - resulting in “autism”, or derange the immune system and start the ball rolling.

My problem with vaccines being the ‘last straw’ or ‘final domino’ is that parents would have even more to blame themselves for than choosing to vaccinate, and they would still be held to blame for their child’s autism - like Bettleheim's Refrigerator Mothers who were still "the cause" as recently as ten years ago.

It has taken more than 30 years for Dr Bernard Rimland's "Infantile Autism", debunking that theory, to be reconsidered.

In my view, instead of lumping together the behaviours that appear in a once neurotypical child, diagnosing "Autism", and prescribing anti-psychotic drugs and/or stimulants, peds should be investigating the behaviours themselves. It is known for instance that the blind and deaf engage in autistic behaviours - but they are called "blindisms" and "deafisms" not "Autism". For them, rocking, spinning, flapping, etc. are merely coping mechanisms.

From my experience, the first male child is often the one who becomes autistic, and they're the ones who are relentlessly vaccinated until the parents wake up. Their unvaccinated siblings who have been born with very similar if not identical immune stressors would appear to have perfectly functioning immune systems. They are certainly healthier.

What are your thoughts?
post #226 of 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherlock007
Would you say the children with autism you have seen have all been vaccine-injured, MT?

And, are there any vaccine-injured children you know who do not have autistic behaviours?
Yes, four.

Quote:
You see, I wonder which came first, the deranged immune system or the vaccine that caused the deranged immune system.
We have a local group here, in which most of the children with autistic spectrum disorders have not been vaccinated by choice. So sometimes I think the immune system comes first.

Quote:
And as autism can be acquired after severe brain injury or an encephalitis, the presence of mercury alone in the brain would seem to me be sufficient to disrupt the function of neurons and lead to autism. (The Burbacher study would appear to support this.)
It could in some children. And it could be that the children in the local group have parents with amalgams. But what is interesting, is that amalgams have been used for a very long time. My parents had amalgams; I had amalgams. I come from the dental nurse generation where if you had a deep fissure without a hole, you had the tooth filled. It was called preventive dentistry . Yet amongst my generation, there wasn't the autism there is now.

I think what we are seeing is a human version of Pottinger's cats with progressive genetic degeneration, + environmental degredation in two ways: Food sprays and lack of nutrients, vaccines, paracetamol, antibiotics and whatever other toxic stuff parents give their children.

Quote:
Therefore even a properly functioning immune system would be no guarantee of protection from neurotoxins and toxins in vaccines * and “autism”.
But it would be better than a poorly functioning immune system.

Quote:
The first vaccine might be enough to cause encephalopathy - resulting in “autism”, or derange the immune system and start the ball rolling.
It could be, but then I don't believe babies with a good immune system would get encephalopathy in the first place. Same as I dont' believe a baby with a good immune system would get fulminant meningococcal disease.

Quote:
My problem with vaccines being the ‘last straw’ or ‘final domino’ is that parents would have even more to blame themselves for than choosing to vaccinate, and they would still be held to blame for their child’s autism - like Bettleheim's Refrigerator Mothers who were still "the cause" as recently as ten years ago.
Well, its a catch 22. Do I blame myself for the fact that my youngest son has the same immunodeficiency that I do, except his isn't as bad, because so far, he's managed to keep his tonsils?

Or do I blame whoever handed me the shonky immune system I have in the first place?

I'm not into the blame game, because sometimes its just the way it is and you have to get on with it.

Quote:
It has taken more than 30 years for Dr Bernard Rimland's "Infantile Autism", debunking that theory, to be reconsidered.

In my view, instead of lumping together the behaviours that appear in a once neurotypical child, diagnosing "Autism", and prescribing anti-psychotic drugs and/or stimulants, peds should be investigating the behaviours themselves. It is known for instance that the blind and deaf engage in autistic behaviours - but they are called "blindisms" and "deafisms" not "Autism". For them, rocking, spinning, flapping, etc. are merely coping mechanisms.

From my experience, the first male child is often the one who becomes autistic, and they're the ones who are relentlessly vaccinated until the parents wake up. Their unvaccinated siblings who have been born with very similar if not identical immune stressors would appear to have perfectly functioning immune systems. They are certainly healthier.

What are your thoughts?
It's a difficult one, because as I said, many of the children I'm seeing now, haven't been vaccinated. To what shall we attribute their autistic spectrum disorders?

One of those kiddies is a close friend, who only got the courage to not vaccinate having seen that my kids didn't die. She says about her Aspergers son.... "just think what he would be like now if we had vaccinated him?"
post #227 of 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherlock007
In my view, instead of lumping together the behaviours that appear in a once neurotypical child, diagnosing "Autism", and prescribing anti-psychotic drugs and/or stimulants, peds should be investigating the behaviours themselves. It is known for instance that the blind and deaf engage in autistic behaviours - but they are called "blindisms" and "deafisms" not "Autism". For them, rocking, spinning, flapping, etc. are merely coping mechanisms.
This is brilliant. So people with autism are coping with their sundry overstimulations or ultrastimulations, etc. Wow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherlock007
From my experience, the first male child is often the one who becomes autistic, and they're the ones who are relentlessly vaccinated until the parents wake up. Their unvaccinated siblings who have been born with very similar if not identical immune stressors would appear to have perfectly functioning immune systems. They are certainly healthier.
This is really interesting. I have been thinking about the fact that breastfeeding moms are less likely to get breast cancer, and that breast fat cells hold toxins, therefore, it is worth asking whether or not these toxins get dumped into the firstborn. It could be this+vaccines. I also read that mothers who worked at a lead smelter and who had serious lead poisoning gave up most of the poison to their babies in utero and then the babies died and the moms' health much improved...
post #228 of 306
Quote:
In my view, instead of lumping together the behaviours that appear in a once neurotypical child, diagnosing "Autism", and prescribing anti-psychotic drugs and/or stimulants, peds should be investigating the behaviours themselves. It is known for instance that the blind and deaf engage in autistic behaviours - but they are called "blindisms" and "deafisms" not "Autism". For them, rocking, spinning, flapping, etc. are merely coping mechanisms.
I don't know if autism can be described as just a set of behaviors. It seems to be a type of brain wiring too. DD, for example, does not have many autistic "behaviors," the only one I can think of is that she repeats lines verbatim from movies and games, which is kind of bothersome sometimes. She is also easily set off into crying fits by unexpected situations. But her autism manifets itself the most in social interactions; she doesn't have a lot of social interest, except with me and DH, and I don't mean she's shy. She has little willingness to share joint attention with other people and she has a great need to control her environment (thus the meltdowns when things don't go as she expects). She goes to great lengths to avoid situations of people talking to her, especially if they're asking something of her. Despite having well over 300 words of language, she has very limited ability to carry on verbal interactions, although this is improving.

Quote:
From my experience, the first male child is often the one who becomes autistic, and they're the ones who are relentlessly vaccinated until the parents wake up. Their unvaccinated siblings who have been born with very similar if not identical immune stressors would appear to have perfectly functioning immune systems. They are certainly healthier.

What are your thoughts?
I dunno. Obviously my firstborn DD is my ASD child, and she did unfortunately receive 6 months of vaxes before we stopped. But her little brother is showing signs of immune malfunction too and has not received any vax. He has got confirmed gut dysbiosis and cannot tolerate grains, and is following DD's same pattern of starting to lose interest in eating baby food at all. He gets fussy and throws up after he eats even mashed bananas. It could indeed be toxins being passed to them from me that's doing this to them, but I've been eating organic for years, do not have dental fillings, don't eat fish...etc. I would not say that DS seems any healthier than DD. I hope he will not have ASD but it is too early to tell.

On the whole notion of what causes autism, I do think gut flora and gut dysbiosis probably have something to do with causing ASD. One theory is that neurotoxins produced by out of whack bacterial and fungal levels in the gut affect the brain like drugs. This is absolutely a factor for DD; we detected these neurotoxins in her urine via an organic acid test and she has responded wonderfully to dietary interventions; she's now on the SCD since 2 weeks and has been getting glowing reports from therapists. Their gut flora problems may have come from me. I have got confirmed gut dysbiosis myself, and while I do not know the exact cause, it may be related to being fully vaxed as a child, taking the pill for three years, being on blood pressure pills for most of the last several years, a doctor who put me on over a year of tetracycline for acne as a teenager...I only wish I knew then what I know now.
post #229 of 306
I think there is another factor with the first time child. Most mothers are more stressed in their first pregnancy because its new, and they don't feel confident in themselves, or know what to expect.

This would mean that cortisol levels would be higher, and nutrient demand higher as well. Therefore metabolically, all the biopathways might not work as smoothly.

A normal second pregnancy is much more relaxing.
post #230 of 306
Krissi, in the area I am in, there is a high use in agri-chemicals and sprays.

A local doctor believes it lies behind the excess of breast cancer in females, and some of the children I know or who have autistic spectrum disorders but whose parents say they aren't vaccinated, live in a "belt" where spray drift would be a regular occurance.

There are so many biopathways that agri-chemicals can disrupt that it defies analysis.

But if you put that along side food with substandard nutrients, pregnancy stress, amalgam in the mouth, a baby can be born ready and waiting for problems. If you add in antibiotics which trash the gut, and other epigenetic influences, life today has the potential to be a disaster waiting to happen... or a domino effect.

Often we don't realise what that domino effect is until things happen that we don't like.
post #231 of 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
Yes, four.



As vaccine-injury covers anything from needle-stick injury to neurological damage, MT, perhaps I should rephrase the question: How many neurologically vaccine-damaged children do you know who do not have - and have never had - autistic behaviours?
Quote:
We have a local group here, in which most of the children with autistic spectrum disorders have not been vaccinated by choice. So sometimes I think the immune system comes first.
Reading that, I picture a large number of children, perhaps at a kindergarten or playcentre, with over half of them unvaccinated and autistic. However they could be a small group of special needs children whose mothers get together for support from time to time.

Please would you clarify: What sort of group? How many children altogether? How old are they? How many have not been vaccinated who have an ASD? Where are they on the spectrum? Did they regress after a normal period of development and become autistic? Do they have official diagnoses? Do they have additional officially diagnosed disorders? Have you asked the parents if they were ever vaccinated?
Quote:
So sometimes I think the immune system comes first.
Maybe so. There are certainly non-vaccinated children with autism.
One child I know appeared normal at birth but at around six-weeks he had a major seizure which resulted in hemiplegia and epilepsy. His mother who leads an ultra-healthy alternative lifestyle and completely avoids doctors, was sprayed with liquid herbicide while she was pregnant with him. He was prescribed anti-epileptic medication which she used for a while but suspected that it was doing more harm than good so switched completely to alternative medicine - and the seizures finally subsided.

What caused his autism? His mother's life-style? A deranged immune system? An immature immune system? A genetic pre-disposition? Chemical poisoning from his mother while in utero then from her breastmilk for six weeks? The epilepsy, or the anti-seizure medication? She suspects the anti-seizure medication. Maybe it was. I know another unvaccinated child who became autistic at six months of age after exactly the same medication.
Quote:
It could in some children. And it could be that the children in the local group have parents with amalgams. But what is interesting, is that amalgams have been used for a very long time. My parents had amalgams; I had amalgams.
The Burbacher study was about thimerosal (mercury) in vaccines. I've never heard of monkeys getting amalgam fillings, so I think one can safely assume that the infant monkeys used in the study weren't exposed to mercury in utero, but they were injected with vaccines according to the immunisation schedule at the time, and the mercury from the vaccines ended up permanently in the monkeys’ brains.

Burbacher found that the mercury had caused a significant increase in microglia and a decrease in astrocytes.

Burbacher et al cite Vargas et al as "having demonstrated an active neuroinflammatory process in brains of autistic patients, including a marked activation of microglia."

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2005/7712/7712.pdf
Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed to Methylmercury or Vaccines Containing Thimerosal

Doing a search for microglia and astrocytes, I learned that microglia are responsible for cleaning up debris caused by injury or disease. The toxins from microglia adversely affect astrocytes. Astrocytes normally nurture and protect neurons - and play an important role in the processing of information for memory. So, I don't find it surprising that some children become autistic after vaccination solely because of thimerosal on the brain.
Quote:
I think what we are seeing is a human version of Pottinger's cats with progressive genetic degeneration, + environmental degredation in two ways: Food sprays and lack of nutrients, vaccines, paracetamol, antibiotics and whatever other toxic stuff parents give their children.
I think that people give more thought to the environment and nutrition than they do to vaccines, paracetamol and antibiotics. After all, Doctors prescribe those, why should they think about them.
Quote:
Well, its a catch 22. Do I blame myself for the fact that my youngest son has the same immunodeficiency that I do, except his isn't as bad, because so far, he's managed to keep his tonsils?Or do I blame whoever handed me the shonky immune system I have in the first place?I'm not into the blame game, because sometimes its just the way it is and you have to get on with it.
So $#&@ happens? Get a life?!

I would say that most parents of vaccine-damaged children don't see it in quite the same way, MT.

How can you possibly compare your passing on an inherited immunodeficiency - to parents trusting a routine, globally-accepted, safe medical procedure to protect their child? There was absolutely nothing you or anyone else could have done to prevent your son's immunodeficiency. You can't possibly take the blame for something you're not responsible for and haven't done.

Parents of vaccine-injured children thought they were protecting their child. Medical experts, the media, books on children's health, society, family and friends told them so.

No doubt, your ds can communicate effectively, can live without your support, has friends, can find a fulfilling job and will be able to marry and have children despite immunodeficiency. One day you will have the satisfaction of knowing that he won't need you to care for him any more.

He doesn't face a life-time of being misunderstood; of being devalued by an uncaring society; or of living in a group-home or an institution because of a needle prick that you agreed to because you trusted your doctor's word when he said he needed it and it was safe.

If someone put a new petrol recommended by experts in your new car and wrecked the engine you wouldn't sit down and say, "!@#$ happens". You'd want someone to take responsibility, particularly if your insurance wouldn't cover the damage, the experts lied and told you that it hadn't happened before and no one could repair the engine.

And I guess you'd be exceedingly angry and upset if anyone told you "Sometimes it's just the way it is and you have to get on with it!."
Quote:
It's a difficult one, because as I said, many of the children I'm seeing now, haven't been vaccinated. To what shall we attribute their autistic spectrum disorders?
If you are referring to "many" children from the "group" you mentioned above, the same questions apply.
post #232 of 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherlock007



As vaccine-injury covers anything from needle-stick injury to neurological damage, MT, perhaps I should rephrase the question: How many neurologically vaccine-damaged children do you know who do not have - and have never had - autistic behaviours?
If you mean brain damaged, then all brain damaged people exhibit behaviours which might now be classified as autism spectrum disorders. So do some Down's Syndrome children.

The boundaries are now so blurred that I think that is adding to the confusion.
Quote:
Reading that, I picture a large number of children, perhaps at a kindergarten or playcentre, with over half of them unvaccinated and autistic. However they could be a small group of special needs children whose mothers get together for support from time to time.

Please would you clarify: What sort of group? How many children altogether? How old are they? How many have not been vaccinated who have an ASD? Where are they on the spectrum? Did they regress after a normal period of development and become autistic? Do they have official diagnoses? Do they have additional officially diagnosed disorders? Have you asked the parents if they were ever vaccinated?
I don't know the answers to any of the questions you ask. The information comes from a close friend of mine who has an unvaccinated child who I do know, and who belongs to an autism support group where parents are referred after diagnosis.

I'm not interested enough to go and ask her to give all her friends the third degree questioning that a researcher would. She said that "many" of the parents there chose not to vaccinate, yet have children diagnosed with autism spectrum disorders.

She's not the sort of person who would lie.

Quote:
Maybe so. There are certainly non-vaccinated children with autism.
One child I know appeared normal at birth but at around six-weeks he had a major seizure which resulted in hemiplegia and epilepsy. His mother who leads an ultra-healthy alternative lifestyle and completely avoids doctors, was sprayed with liquid herbicide while she was pregnant with him. He was prescribed anti-epileptic medication which she used for a while but suspected that it was doing more harm than good so switched completely to alternative medicine - and the seizures finally subsided.

What caused his autism? His mother's life-style? A deranged immune system? An immature immune system? A genetic pre-disposition? Chemical poisoning from his mother while in utero then from her breastmilk for six weeks? The epilepsy, or the anti-seizure medication? She suspects the anti-seizure medication. Maybe it was.
For a child to have a seizure disorder, there has to be an underlying condition in order for them to prescribe drugs.

People react differently to sprays. Some clear them okay, and others don't. Those who don't often have glutathione pathways that don't work.

I think it would be unfair to blame the medication, since there was a reason why the medication in the first place. That could either have been direct toxicity from the spray or an underlying disorder exacerbated by the spray, so its very hard to assign causation.

Quite a few children who start with seizures and never use medication at all, also have their seizures subside. Having said that when you look at seizure medication, one of the side effects listed is seizures.

A bit like anti-depressant medication, and one of the side effects listed is depression.

What I don't understand is why parents don't read the package inserts or make any effort to find out about side effects, but that's another pet whinge of mine, so ignore it

Quote:
I know another unvaccinated child who became autistic at six months of age after exactly the same medication.
The Burbacher study was about thimerosal (mercury) in vaccines. I've never heard of monkeys getting amalgam fillings, so I think one can safely assume that the infant monkeys used in the study weren't exposed to mercury in utero, but they were injected with vaccines according to the immunisation schedule at the time, and the mercury from the vaccines ended up permanently in the monkeys’ brains.

Burbacher found that the mercury had caused a significant increase in microglia and a decrease in astrocytes.

Burbacher et al cite Vargas et al as "having demonstrated an active neuroinflammatory process in brains of autistic patients, including a marked activation of microglia."

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2005/7712/7712.pdf
Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed to Methylmercury or Vaccines Containing Thimerosal

Doing a search for microglia and astrocytes, I learned that microglia are responsible for cleaning up debris caused by injury or disease. The toxins from microglia adversely affect astrocytes. Astrocytes normally nurture and protect neurons - and play an important role in the processing of information for memory. So, I don't find it surprising that some children become autistic after vaccination solely because of thimerosal on the brain.
I agree and disagree. If you assume that the stats are 1 autistic per 150 children... and you assume that all autism is caused by mercury in vaccines, for every 1 child, 149 don't get autism from the mercury in their vaccines.

Why not? What is the difference between the 149 who don't get autism and the one that does?

Have you read the basis of epigenetics and methylation? Could it be that the "one" out of 150 have a defective biochemistry functioning, and the 149 don't?

This study here:
Quote:
Geier DA Geier MR

Med Sci Monit. 2006 May 29;12(6):CR231-239

An assessment of downward trends in neurodevelopmental disorders in the United States following removal of thimerosal from childhood vaccines.

Background: The US is in the midst of an epidemic of neurodevelopmental disorders (NDs). Thimerosal is an ethylmercury-containing compound added to some childhood vaccines. Several previous epidemiological studies conducted in the US have associated Thimerosal-containing vaccine (TCV) administration with NDs. Material/Methods: An ecological study was undertaken to evaluate NDs reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) from 1991 through 2004 by date of receipt and by date of vaccine administration. The NDs examined included autism, mental retardation, and speech disorders. Statistical trend analysis was employed to evaluate the effects of removal of Thimerosal on the proportion of NDs reported to VAERS. Results: There was a peak in the proportion of ND reports received by VAERS in 2001-2002 and in the proportion of ND reports by date of vaccine administration in 1998. There were significant reductions in the proportion of NDs reported to VAERS as Thimerosal was begun to be removed from childhood vaccines in the US from mid-1999 onwards. Conclusions: The present study provides the first epidemiological evidence showing that as Thimerosal was removed from childhood vaccines, the number of NDs has decreased in the US. The analysis techniques utilized attempted to minimize chance or bias/confounding. Additional research should be conducted to further evaluate the relationship between TCVs and NDs. This is especially true because the handling of vaccine safety data from the National Immunization Program of the CDC has been called into question by the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences in 2005.
might indicate that the removal of mercury from vaccines has reduced autism by removing the trigger of whatever mechanism it is, as hypothesised by Dr Boyd Haley, i.e. Apo-E 4, and perhaps others.....

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I think that people give more thought to the environment and nutrition than they do to vaccines, paracetamol and antibiotics. After all, Doctors prescribe those, why should they think about them.

So $#&@ happens? Get a life?!

I would say that most parents of vaccine-damaged children don't see it in quite the same way, MT.
I don't think too many people give a thought even to nutrition really.

I'm sorry you took it that way Sherlock. I guess sometimes my pragmatism could be seen as "dont-give-a-damness"

Yes, Shit happens. What do you do when shit happens? Sit there, blame everyone and get a stomach ulcer?

Quote:
How can you possibly compare your passing on an inherited immunodeficiency - to parents trusting a routine, globally-accepted, safe medical procedure to protect their child?
What is the difference? I've passed an inherited immunodeficiency to one of my children. Yes, that child is more at risk to disease than normal children. But I also know that with my history that vaccines are quite dangerous to someone with that immunodeficiency. The medical profession would say that the immunodeficiency means that its more important that my child gets vaccines. I disagree.

An ordinary parent might take their child with an immunodeficiency and get a vaccine, and their child might have a vaccine reaction. So they might say that it was BECAUSE of the vaccine that the child is damaged. They would be correct in one sense, in that, if my son is anything to go by, he is still okay, because I've not run the risk.

BUT if I had my son vaccinated and he then had a reaction that resulted in an autoimmune disease, while the vaccine would have been the trigger, I would have to say that the REASON the vaccine triggered the reaction was because my son's immune system was such that that was a distinct possibility.

So, if you have a child with, say, APO-E4 gene, and get a child vaccinated, then there is a chance of heavy metal toxicity. Most parents don't know that, so they might consider it solely the vaccines fault.

But for me, if I had a child with an APO-E4 genetype and knowing that, if I vaccinated and my child got autism as a result, do I blame the vaccine, or the fact that children with APO-E 4 can't excrete mercury and it was the methylation effect of that gene that resulted in mercury poisoning, therefore autism?

I don't know how many children who have autism have APO-E 4 or any other metabolic pathway disorder. Some of the others here like Jane S, and Bestbirths, and others might be able to discuss that with more competence.

There is no difference to the two examples in my mind.

Should the medical profession know all these things? Technically yes, but you and I both know that they don't want to know and don't give a toss. And accept no responsibility or accountability for it. And most parents trust them.

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There was absolutely nothing you or anyone else could have done to prevent your son's immunodeficiency. You can't possibly take the blame for something you're not responsible for and haven't done.
I'm not taking blame. I'm saying, this is the situation that exists today. I'm not going to allow him to have vaccines, and doctors will have to walk over my dead body to remove his tonsils, because with the immunodeficiency he has, if he loses his tonsils, then he will be in real trouble. For me, its a question of him living his life understanding the odds as I see them.

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Parents of vaccine-injured children thought they were protecting their child. Medical experts, the media, books on children's health, society, family and friends told them so.
True. And therefore, because they chose to trust others to make the right choices for them, they feel that its right for them to blame those doctors and governments for the fact that their children are damaged. Problem is, the doctors and government don't see it that way. So what do they do then, apart from feeling that its all unjust and unfair?

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No doubt, your ds can communicate effectively, can live without your support, has friends, can find a fulfilling job and will be able to marry and have children despite immunodeficiency.
Well, sort of. He has dyslexia, which means its almost impossible for him to pass exams because though he knows the work, there is never enough time for him to write enough down. He has many of the sensitivities that dyslexic children have, and cannot function under time pressure.

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One day you will have the satisfaction of knowing that he won't need you to care for him any more.
Hopefully. That time hasn't come yet.

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He doesn't face a life-time of being misunderstood;
That not true. Dyslexics are constantly misunderstood. He constantly has to watch what he says and how he says it, and often says nothing, because he's not sure if he's "read" the situation the way normal people would.

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of being devalued by an uncaring society;
I don't know about that yet. I see some evidence of that at the moment.

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or of living in a group-home or an institution because of a needle prick that you agreed to because you trusted your doctor's word when he said he needed it and it was safe.
I'm stonkered here. Yes, there is a sense where I could say that if I'd had this son vaccinated he could be vaccine damaged, and I might be in that situation where he had to go into a group-home or an institution.

But I'm not in that situation precisely because I didn't trust my doctor when he said it was MORE important that my son be vaccinated. My instincts just screamed at me that that was a load of baloney. So I didn't do it.

Do you think that its right for parents to "blame" the doctors they chose to trust for the outcome?

Turn the tables. Just say your son had a problem and the doctor wanted you to do something, and you said no, and it turned to custard. Do you then blame the doctor for not forcing you to do what he had suggested, even though the outcome might have been the same?

Where do the boundaries of personal responsibilities to ourselves and our children begin and end?

That too, is an individual choice. Some people consider doctors to be in loco parentis, except the parentis in loco, is never in loco when things go wrong.

About three months ago, someone started a thread here saying that she was going to go ahead and vaccinate becuase that way, if everything we said here could go wrong, did go wrong, it would be the fault of the person who recommended it, which set off an interesting heated discussion. I don't know if the thread still exists. I will try and find it.

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If someone put a new petrol recommended by experts in your new car and wrecked the engine you wouldn't sit down and say, "!@#$ happens". You'd want someone to take responsibility, particularly if your insurance wouldn't cover the damage, the experts lied and told you that it hadn't happened before and no one could repair the engine.
Very true. And I'd take that risk with a metal machine that I know could replaced, but I'd not use the same level of trust of decision making with a body that can't be replaced or re-cycled.

The two scenarios for me, don't even come in the same orbit of "risk-analysis"

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And I guess you'd be exceedingly angry and upset if anyone told you "Sometimes it's just the way it is and you have to get on with it!."
If you are referring to "many" children from the "group" you mentioned above, the same questions apply.
With regard to a car, I'd say that myself.

With regard to children, .... no, I don't think I would be angry or upset.

People said that to me, about our first child's birth, and I realise thatwhile I could moan whinge and snap about it, because it turned to custard because I made that choice to trust people who I shouldn't have trusted. Moaning about it, just turned people off from me.

At the time, when it looked like the birth was impacting very badly on our son, I did moan, and people did say that.

All I could do was realise the truth in it, and get on with it. What else was I supposed to do?

But I made sure that didn't happen again. Instead, I had a home birth, and we home schooled a dyslexic

People have also made comments about our youngest son to me, but I know that what you have said is the truth. Dyslexia is the way he is, and he has to get on with it, and find coping skills. There are also some people who say that dyslexic children can blame their mothers for not having enough essential fatty acids in their diets so that the wiring in their brain isn't laid down properly, so I suppose I could blame myself for that. But I don't. His pregnancy was tricky in that there were so many foods I couldn't eat. I can see how it could have been that I was short of essential fatty acids, but they were the very foods that if I ate, turned around and came back up in short order.

I have to be practical in the way I approach things, and the way I stay sane is not to blame, but to get on with it.

And I also feel that the only way for parents of Autistic children to move forwards is to flick the rear vision mirror to one side, and try to retrieve their children in any way possible. There are many here who are in the process of doing that, or who have done that. In the end, its the future that matters in a world that won't accept blame.

Parents have a choice. They can work themselves into a stomach ulcer with anger at who they see at the guilty culprit, or they can look for ways to make tomorrow as good as it can be. Or I guess they can do both. Whatever they do, it comes down to how an individual wants to live their lives.
post #233 of 306
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Originally Posted by emma_goldman
This is brilliant. So people with autism are coping with their sundry overstimulations or ultrastimulations, etc. Wow.
Yes I believe so. They would seem to have a major problem with sensory integration. But when an ordinary child suddenly starts engaging in these behaviours, their parents are told, "That's Autism."

A child who crouches, covers his ears, screams and rocks when exposed to the sound of hand-driers, hair-driers etc, very likely has auditory problems.

Their ears may very well be hypersensitive to normal sounds that don't affect the rest of us. Their perception of them is different. But how do ordinary people react when they are exposed to a constant bombardment of noise? The sound of a pneumatic drill, for instance? Or even the drip-drip-drip of a tap?

Another child who throws a major tantrum whenever she is dressed, may be hypersensitive to the clothing material. Temple Grandin talks about this.

I find quiz shows such as Wheel of Fortune interesting to watch because the winners very often jump up and down and flap their hands. Now why do they do that?

And if you watch tragedies on TV, the bereaved often curl themselves up - and rock.
post #234 of 306
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I think there is another factor with the first time child. Most mothers are more stressed in their first pregnancy because its new, and they don't feel confident in themselves, or know what to expect.

This would mean that cortisol levels would be higher, and nutrient demand higher as well. Therefore metabolically, all the biopathways might not work as smoothly.
Have wondered if that's a factor here. I was on edge the entire pregnancy with DD after having had 3 miscarriages. I know my stress levels can't have been good for her. I'm more skeptical about agri-chemicals in our case because I don't think we've ever lived in a likely drift pathway, but I haven't researched it to see for sure since that's something I couldn't go back and change (but a good thing to check on before picking the next place to live). I did used to drink tap water once upon a time before I knew better.

Epigenetics makes sense to me though. Various autoimmune diseases and gut issues run on both sides of the family. The balance is tipped against our offspring for "normal" immune systems. (The discovery that vaxes have never been ruled out as a cause of autoimmune disease was what made me think we should stop vaxing in the first place, over a year before we suspected autism in DD.)

Anyway, I can't pinpoint just single factor that caused DD's autism. That's what makes me get so frustrated to see the issue being oversimplified by a lot of people (not referring to anyone in this thread). I get really tired of hearing how the MMR is the cause of autism with bowel disease when I have a child with autism and bowel disease who never got the MMR. Or how all autism is the result of mercury poisoning when she hasn't been exposed to it unless if I have it stored in my body in a way that she was exposed prenatally (but again I have no amalgam fillings and don't eat fish). Autism seems to be multifactorial and that each child may have a different lineup of causes. I wish more people recognized that. I don't doubt that thimerosal or MMR exposure may be the cause for a few kids, but they probably had the deck stacked against them in the first place.

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Yes I believe so. They would seem to have a major problem with sensory integration. But when an ordinary child suddenly starts engaging in these behaviours, their parents are told, "That's Autism."

A child who crouches, covers his ears, screams and rocks when exposed to the sound of hand-driers, hair-driers etc, very likely has auditory problems.
Again, autism is more than a collection of behaviors. Not all kids with autism engage in these behaviors, and if a child was engaging in these behaviors in the absense of serious social interaction deficits, etc., then it would not be enough to merit a diagnosis of autism. Just one item on the DSM list for diagnosing autism deals with these types of behaviors:
http://www.autism-biomed.org/dsm-iv.htm

And at least where I am, typically a child's hearing is checked before pursuing any kind of diagnosis related to developmental delays. People don't rush into a diagnosis of autism. An otherwise normal child who interacted well with people, had language, made eye contact, etc. would probably get a diagnosis of sensory integration disorder. Many kids with ASD have SID too, but the two are not synonymous.
post #235 of 306
We have four unvaxed children that have add, dyslexia, depression, or are aspie.
Our vaxed child is our firstborn son, who is the worst off. But then again, he regressed in puberty around age 12, and our second oldest is twelve now...I see a bit of regression happening in her that I am VERY concerned about....not bathing...not eating....seems to miss important steps and not take social cues....

I am in the genetic predisposition/messed up camp...and I am in the vaccine injury camp too. I see both as being explanations that can coexist.

What if our family has some kind of biological blockage/abnormality that happens in puberty that will cause all of our children to regress into autism? What if I don't chelate and all of our other children start regressing at puberty? We can only chelate one at a time, and that is the oldest now. While I watch my twelve year old regress like he did? Unbearable. I bought cod liver oil for dd. Sigh. It's frightening.

I've been reading tons on the internet about the amazing history of liver, and cod liver oil. It was used for eye ailements in ancient chinese writings and the writings of Hippocrates. In the 1800's a ship's doctor used dried ox livers to cure night blindness.

They say that autism is a problem with focus, only able to focus on the little box in front of them, stimming, these kinds of things. Dyslexia is vision in that it is a way of looking at things differently which causes the difficulties, which could be helped by vitamin A/choline also. I am going to try vitamin a through cod liver oil and choline supplements with all the children.

Here is a site which has some basic info on cod liver oil. The weston a. price foundation, I have enjoyed reading the site.

I would love it if I got that genetic testing and it proved that my children shouldn't be vaccinated, and they shouldn't vax the grandchildren. I am more thinking along the lines of how to facilitate the non vaxing of the next generations, and this is a benefit I can see from this genetic testing. It might help the anti vax arguement with my childrens future partners.

I love this thread. So much to think about. I really enjoy thinking about this kind of thing, researching, reading and trying to figure things out.

on pesticides blocking cholinesThis explains how the blockage effects people with MG, and my thought is that the way it effects those with autism is on similar lines

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A Simplified Explanation of Cholinesterase and
Anticholinesterase Agents

In order for a muscle to move, a nerve impulse is sent from the brain, through the nerve to the nerve ending. A chemical called acetylcholine carries the message across the nerve synapse to the muscle, linking up with the muscle's receptor, because a muscle can only contract when its receptors are flooded with acetylcholine.

In myasthenia gravis, some of the muscle receptors are blocked by antibodies that prevent the acetylcholine from doing its job.

Cholinesterase is an enzyme that, in normal circumstances, gets rid of the aceytlcholine so that too much of it does not build up at the receptor site.

But in myasthenia gravis, a cholinesterase inhibitor, also known as an anticholinesterase agent, can be used to block the cholinesterase from working. This allows the acetylcholine to hang around the receptor longer, flooding the site with acetylcholine and outmaneuvering the antibodies.
This has a list of pesticides that are cholinesterase inhibitors. The thing is that there are choline antagonists and I am still trying to figure this out in my head.

What I observed in my son is that when we used cod liver oil and then introduced supplements with choline, while at the same time upping zinc (which increases absorption of vit A in cod liver oil), then increased coQ10, also taking into consideration the benefits of chelation... the interaction of these supplements and factors unblocked something in my son's brain. This unblocking allowed him to break free of his OCD fears of leaving the house and begin to "see" the world around him and have "significant gains in eye contact and social interaction". The other factor is that yeast has to be under control for all of this to occur. He went on a soda pop binger at his friends and came back more confused and less eye contact, less able to do his self care skills he was doing, but he has still continued to leave the house. I am working on getting the yeast back under control now.

I observed my son getting much much worse, back to square one from the gains we had seen with chelation, around pesticide exposure.
post #236 of 306
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Originally Posted by krissi
I don't know if autism can be described as just a set of behaviors.
http://www.aitinstitute.org/auditory...and_autism.php

"The clinical picture of autism can vary greatly among individuals. No single behaviour defines autism, but rather a cluster of behaviours, and the intensity to which they are displayed."

Quote:
Originally Posted by krissi
It seems to be a type of brain wiring too. DD, for example, does not have many autistic "behaviors," the only one I can think of is that she repeats lines verbatim from movies and games, which is kind of bothersome sometimes.
I see echolalia as an autistic language behaviour, Krissi. From experience and from what I have read, I would say that your daughter is actually practising language and it is a good sign.

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Originally Posted by krissi
She goes to great lengths to avoid situations of people talking to her, especially if they're asking something of her. Despite having well over 300 words of language, she has very limited ability to carry on verbal interactions, although this is improving.
Could it be that she has a Central Auditory Processing Disorder?
post #237 of 306
Sherlock, yes, the repeating of scripts is an autistic language behavior. Unfortunately because of the way she does it interferes with verbal interactions, it isn't a good thing for her. Echolalia can indeed be good for learning language but this specific behavior is more of a "stim." But my point is that this behavior is not what gets the autism diagnosis. This is the harder stuff:

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qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

(a) marked impairment in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors, such as eye-to- eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction

(b) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level

(c) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest)

(d) lack of social or emotional reciprocity

(2) qualitative impairments in communication, as manifested by at least one of the following:

(a) delay in, or total lack of, the development of spoken language (not accompanied by an attempt to compensate through alternative modes of communication such as gesture or mime)

(b) in individuals with adequate speech, marked impairment in the ability to initiate or sustain a conversation with others

(c) stereotyped and repetitive use of language or idiosyncratic language

(d) lack of varied, spontaneous make-believe play or social imitative play appropriate to developmental level
And these things are not simple hurdles that if someone just sat down with the child and taught them how to do it that it would be overcome. There's a whole underlying type of brain wiring that has gone awry to cause these problems in the first place. You are probably perfectly aware of this already, but I just want to make sure that anyone reading this fully understands that just because a child rocks or engages in certain behaviors, that is not what constitutes "autism".

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Could it be that she has a Central Auditory Processing Disorder?
Definitely possible. I've been thinking she has for a while, and lots of kids with ASD have CAPD. But it doesn't really make a difference in her treatment. For DD, we already have a number of lab markers to indicate what may be going wrong. She has the aforementioned gut dysbiosis, low blood levels of almost all key minerals, severely out of whack neurotransmitters, out of whack amino acid levels...this suggests that there's definitely some kind of systemic cause or group of causes for her symptoms that extends beyond just being damage the brain. It sounds more like something in her gut that is affecting her brain, because simple brain damage wouldn't affect her nutritional levels so severely.
post #238 of 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by krissi
Sherlock, yes, the repeating of scripts is an autistic language behavior. Unfortunately because of the way she does it interferes with verbal interactions, it isn't a good thing for her. Echolalia can indeed be good for learning language but this specific behavior is more of a "stim."
I am very familiar with this kind of 'stim', believe me, Krissi. When it interferes with verbal interactions. it's difficult to know what to do.
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But my point is that this behavior is not what gets the autism diagnosis.
You're absolutely right. Sorry about the confusion. I'll try again.

Odd behaviours in an autistic child are very often attributed to autism, as if "Autism" were the cause instead of the diagnosis.

When "Autism" is blamed for everything a child does, many parents don't bother to look further than drugs to manage the behaviour.

Others who are not happy with their child having a so-called "lifelong disorder with no cure", will relentlessly search for one - or, if they're exceedingly fortunate, stumble upon one - like Annabel Stehli whose daughter, Georgie, recovered from autism solely with Auditory Integrated Training.

The Sound of a Miracle
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/038...lance&n=283155
(BeatleBangs1964 review is the most detailed)

In my view, Georgie would have had a grim future without it, but some parents say that autism is just "a different way of thinking", and any treatment is seen as a form of child abuse, in fact some go as far as to say that if parents try to find a cure for their child's autism, they don't love them.(BS)

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You are probably perfectly aware of this already, but I just want to make sure that anyone reading this fully understands that just because a child rocks or engages in certain behaviors, that is not what constitutes "autism".
Seeing as this thread is on the Vaccination Forum, I was thinking more along the lines of regressive autism after vaccination. I chose those "autistic behaviours" in particular because they are evident in people who are brain damaged or have major difficulties with hearing or vision.

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Definitely possible. I've been thinking she has for a while, and lots of kids with ASD have CAPD. But it doesn't really make a difference in her treatment. For DD, we already have a number of lab markers to indicate what may be going wrong. She has the aforementioned gut dysbiosis, low blood levels of almost all key minerals, severely out of whack neurotransmitters, out of whack amino acid levels...this suggests that there's definitely some kind of systemic cause or group of causes for her symptoms that extends beyond just being damage the brain. It sounds more like something in her gut that is affecting her brain, because simple brain damage wouldn't affect her nutritional levels so severely.
I don't believe that all cases of autism are caused by simple brain damage, Krissi. If it were so, the gfcf diet alone wouldn't work for any children.
post #239 of 306
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And at least where I am, typically a child's hearing is checked before pursuing any kind of diagnosis related to developmental delays.
What sort of hearing tests are they given, Krissi?

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People don't rush into a diagnosis of autism. An otherwise normal child who interacted well with people, had language, made eye contact, etc. would probably get a diagnosis of sensory integration disorder. Many kids with ASD have SID too, but the two are not synonymous.
True. Although it is common.
post #240 of 306
While this thread is in the vaccination forum, it was started with the purpose of looking at all possible factors, not just vaccination. It seems a good idea that people should bat everything around, because if people get locked into the idea that ONLY vaccination causes regressive autism, then they can fail to look outside the square at other causes like epigenetic factors, gut dysbiosis, minerals, aminos and a whole host of other potential co-factors and triggers.
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