You HAVE to do things... (spin-off) - Page 6

[Yooper]

I also want to know what the difference between TCS and non-coersive parenting is. I do not put a label on what I do but it would be good to know when reading......

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by scubamama

It sounds like she needs more choices and more opportunity for control in her life, imo. The going, the clothes, the changing her mind are all the same need for autonomy, from my pov. Intentionally offering choices such as 'do you want the green one or the blue one (without limiting 'the purple one', if that is her stated preference, of course) honors her autonomy and offers opportunities to exert her will. I am being very specific in that the choice is NOT limited to the two choices offered, just that this provides a template for perceiving that one has autonomy over themselves. This is different than 'do you want cereal or eggs for breakfast?' (a limitation of choice) when 'a banana split' is a "definite no", or the purple one is a "definite no". Choice A or B is offered, but choice C,D,E,F,G, etc. are available if realistically available (ie. available in the house, possible to provide without hardship, negotiable if related to concerns, etc.)

A short summer dress isn't a realistic option in this weather. Her light clothes aren't available right now. Some of her clothes are okay on day like this (sunny but cold) but not when it's pouring rain. She can wear whatever she wants. She can choose her clothes every single day. Yes - I'm coercive in that if she wants to go to the farm in the pouring rain, I have to okay what she wants to wear. But, she won't pick something. Usually, she wants me to pick something...but she still won't put it on. And, if she does put it on, she changes her mind after she's dressed. Or, she'll pick something - I'll say "great", and go to change her baby brother. Then, I say, "okay - let's go" and find that she's taken all her clothes back off.

How do you reconcile the two things she wants,when they contradict each other? That's what I'm really getting at. I've left it alone a few times. When she's dressed, we'll go out...but she doesn't get dressed. Then, hours later, it's "I want to go to the farm". And, she can't, because it's closed and there's a meltdown. The only time this doesn't end up in a meltdown is if I put her clothes on and we leave. Every other way I've tried to deal with this has ended up with screaming, crying and tantrums.

I'd like to leave this with her. I'm not interested in forcing an outing that's supposed to be for fun!

[wildmonkeys]

Abmdkf - thank you for your response, I really appreciate it because we try to live that way and avoid power struggles between all of the members of our family, but have really struggled with situations between my dss lately. The big factor is that ds1 started K and ds2 frequently does not want to go to the bus to get him. I can not let my five year old get off the bus by himself and walk home (nor do I want to!) nor do I want to force ds2 to go to the corner twice a day when he doesn't want to (nor would I leave him in the house alone). I have made many attempts to make going to the bus more fun (I'll carry you, we'll play follow the leader, you can ride your bike, carry on umbrella, pick up leaves on the way, do you want to pass out stickers to all of our friends at the bus, etc. etc. etc.) but somedays he just really doesn't want to go and I literally pick him up and carry him to the corner explaining that we have to go because brother needs us there.

Regarding the age of the OP child - I don't think that those who mentioned it were doing a "just you wait" (Or at least I didn't read it that way) I think folks are trying to explain how things have come in their lives with their children that they didn't anticipate and explaining how that has impacted their parenting.

Anyway, I think this has been a great discussion. Something to think about and interesting how different families have drawn the line in different places. My parents gave us flexibility around the "petty" stuff but made many of the big choices for us (where we went to school, what sort of food we had in the house, whether or not to have a TV) Their balanced approach has left me with bitterness to work through in adulthood It was nice to have some things decided - I never even really thought about the options that weren't offered and enjoyed the freedom of not having every move controlled. That is what I strive for.

Thanks again for sharing.
BJ
Barney & Ben

[johub]

Originally Posted by yoopervegan

Some people like vegetables despite being coerced to eat them as kids too. Does that mean it is a good idea to coerce kids to eat veggies?

Many people here are quick to defend non-coersion when it comes to food (to avoid eating disorders and such) but I do not see any difference between coersion with food or with tooth brushing or getting dressed or bedtime or anything else.

I am not arguing that coercion is a "good idea" . I am only arguing that in my experience children who are coerced dont "hate brushing and avoid it when they can." And that if this is the premise by which coercions is negative but non coercive methods are positive. It is an argument that simply doesnt hold true with experience.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by scubamama
We laugh because it always comes down to brushing teeth, bedtimes, eating vegetables and the car seat. No we do not make ds brush his teeth. We model, explain, offer alternatives. We have about six different tooth brushes, his choice varies according to the moon (apparently). We have several types of tooth paste, we have floss (several types and methods), we have electric tooth brushes, we don't have a water pic but that helps, we have tongue brushes, little tooth pics, little dental mirrors, etc.

Originally Posted by natensarah

This is a good illustration, to me, of values and priorities. I read this and thought, "How wasteful! One person does not need all those things to keep their teeth clean!" But Pat and her son must feel that he does.

So I guess, for me, while it's important for my child to be happy and have as much choice as possible, it's not important enough for me to participate in or contribute to behavior that I am opposed to, and therefore I will coerce my children to follow my rules.

__________________________

Natensarah, Ummm....toothbrushes are $2.49 at Target. He uses the same amount of toothpaste, (maybe less since it is only 5/7 of the week ); Same amount of floss, (just a choice of types)???; the Bob the Builder electric tooth brush was a gift and his electric tooth brush head was maybe $1.00. The tongue brushes are free from the dentist; the tooth pics were a splurge from Costco (a life time supply was $4); the little dental mirror was part of a set, $5 maybe. So, that is about maybe $20-30 for a year's supply of tooth apparel. What is excessive or wasteful???? I guess my only choice is our son's teeth and $30 vs. coercion?? The rules are not necessary, is the point. Nor is the coercion.

And autonomy of a person's own body space integrity has much more value to him (or her) in the teen years, than now while he is learning to expect for others to honor his body boundaries, imnsho.

Pat

[Yooper]

Originally Posted by johub

I am not arguing that coercion is a "good idea" . I am only arguing that in my experience children who are coerced dont "hate brushing and avoid it when they can." And that if this is the premise by which coercions is negative but non coercive methods are positive. It is an argument that simply doesnt hold true with experience.

It does not hold true in the experience of your dcs. And I do not think anyone said every single child that is forced to brush their teeth will hate it, just as not every single child that is forced to eat veggies hates them. But I do think it is more likely to hate brushing your teeth if you are forced to do it against your will. Since your dcs like brushing thier teeth, it sounds as though you did not have to coerse them to do it. They "HAVE to" but they like to so it is not a coersive situation. But there are people here who do have trouble getting thier kids to brush their teeth and are asking for advice. Are you suggesting that children who do not want to brush their teeth should be forced to?

I mean haven't you experienced something like this? A good example from my life is school assignments that require reading books. I HATED most of those books. As an adult I have gone back and read them and found them quite enjoyable. I am quite sure I hated them because I was coersed into reading them (for a grade) when in actuality I like almost any book I pick up and am not picky at all.

[Rigama]

Originally Posted by scubamama

Originally Posted by scubamama
We laugh because it always comes down to brushing teeth, bedtimes, eating vegetables and the car seat. No we do not make ds brush his teeth. We model, explain, offer alternatives. We have about six different tooth brushes, his choice varies according to the moon (apparently). We have several types of tooth paste, we have floss (several types and methods), we have electric tooth brushes, we don't have a water pic but that helps, we have tongue brushes, little tooth pics, little dental mirrors, etc.




__________________________

Natensarah, Ummm....toothbrushes are $2.49 at Target. He uses the same amount of toothpaste, (maybe less since it is only 5/7 of the week ); Same amount of floss, (just a choice of types)???; the Bob the Builder electric tooth brush was a gift and his electric tooth brush head was maybe $1.00. The tongue brushes are free from the dentist; the tooth pics were a splurge from Costco (a life time supply was $4); the little dental mirror was part of a set, $5 maybe. So, that is about maybe $20-30 for a year's supply of tooth apparel. What is excessive or wasteful???? I guess my only choice is our son's teeth and $30 vs. coercion?? The rules are not necessary, is the point. Nor is the coercion.

And autonomy of a person's own body space integrity has much more value to him (or her) in the teen years, than now while he is learning to expect for others to honor his body boundaries, imnsho.

Pat

So when I was in jr. High and High school, I had this friend whose mother NEVER made him brush his teeth if he didn't want to. As a result, this guy never did. His teeth were gross, his breath was bad, and he took PRIDE in the fact that it had been "4 days" since he last brushed. Needless to say, his circle of friends was limited and he didn't exactly have unlimited girls pounding down his door asking him to the prom. I'm not saying that all kids who are left to brush/not brush at their whim will follow the same path as my friend but I do think that kids need to learn that some things just have to be done. That or face social ailienation. I make my son brush his teeth EVERY day. Sometimes he doesn't like it so we shorten the time...but it is still a necessary thing in my book. That doesn't make me a spirit squashing tyrrant. And my son certainly isn't a morose depressed child because if it either.

[Storm Bride]

yoopervegan: I won't say you're wrong that you hated them because you had to read them. But, that might not be it. I'm a book-a-holic (I mean that - I don't have a healthy relationship with the printed word), and I also hated most of the books we had to read in school. Some of them, I just plain didn't like, and still don't. Some of them I like quite well. I didn't dislike them because I had to read them, although I didn't like having my time taken away from books I did want to read. I disliked them, because I couldn't just read them.I had to read one chapter, then answer a bunch of questions, most of which I thought were stupid, then there'd be a class discussion, then I got to read another chapter (yippee), etc. I couldn't treat it as a bookand just read it - it was a lesson.

Anyway, I don't know about the end results of all of this. I know a couple of guy who weren't made to brush their teeth as children, because their parents didn't want to battle with them. And, they don't brush them as adults, either (the condition of their teeth has to be seen to be believed). But, neither of these guys had parents with a non-coercive philosophy - they had parents who just couldn't be bothered. I have to think that makes a difference.

[irinam]

Originally Posted by Rigama

So when I was in jr. High and High school, I had this friend whose mother NEVER made him brush his teeth if he didn't want to. As a result, this guy never did. His teeth were gross, his breath was bad, and he took PRIDE in the fact that it had been "4 days" since he last brushed. Needless to say, his circle of friends was limited and he didn't exactly have unlimited girls pounding down his door asking him to the prom. I'm not saying that all kids who are left to brush/not brush at their whim will follow the same path as my friend but I do think that kids need to learn that some things just have to be done. That or face social ailienation. I make my son brush his teeth EVERY day. Sometimes he doesn't like it so we shorten the time...but it is still a necessary thing in my book. That doesn't make me a spirit squashing tyrrant. And my son certainly isn't a morose depressed child because if it either.

I don't think there has to be a "cut-and-dry" approach to any situations.

It's not a war between "making" your child to do something and "not making" and the child ends up being a slob.

It's about teaching, explaining, persvading. It's not like non-coercive parenting means "just let things flow". If you see something as important (brushing teeth in this example) - deliver the message. Why do you think it's important? What will happen if the important thing is not done? Do you (generic "you") model the important behaviour? Did you deliver the message efficiently? (show the cases of bad hygine and the result, read articles about it, talk about social implications)

It's true, at the end it is childs choice (IMO). So if the boy in your examples choses this type of life style, it is not because his parents made or not made him do stuff. How do we know that even if the parents "made" him brush his teeth during childhood, he will not stop immediately after the "parental control" is no longer there?

[Rigama]

there is no reading articles and expressing the concerns of bad hygene to a 20 month old. Or even a 3 year old! That kind of discussion is more appropriate for a 5 year old. In the meantime, I tell him he can have his spidey tooth brush or his race car toothbrush and he knows that NO toothbrush is not an option.

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by scubamama

I guess my only choice is our son's teeth and $30 vs. coercion?? The rules are not necessary, is the point. Nor is the coercion.

Right. Totally agree with you. But when my dd and I play like she's a badger and I have to get all the mealy worms out of her teeth, I just can't see it as "coercion". Sure, initially she refuses, but instead of spending $30 on dental supplies, which, BTW, is pretty much my children's ENTIRE yearly toiletry budget, I just make it a little more fun. Is the lesson learned here that she has no body boundaries, no autonomy or body space integrity? Or is it that sometimes "a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down?" It's not like I'm holding her down and forcing the toothbrush in her mouth while she screams and kicks.

Also, Pat, I've always really enjoyed your posts, and I think it's great if this is a way some families choose to parent. What I take umbrage at is the assertion by you and CaptainCrunchy that I am consistently disrespectful to my children because we don't parent this way.

[irinam]

Originally Posted by Rigama

there is no reading articles and expressing the concerns of bad hygene to a 20 month old. Or even a 3 year old! That kind of discussion is more appropriate for a 5 year old. In the meantime, I tell him he can have his spidey tooth brush or his race car toothbrush and he knows that NO toothbrush is not an option.

True, examples I gave had to do with the example you gave of an older child.

When both of mine were little, I did:

modeling
making it a game
brushing together
getting rid of "cavity monsters"
choosing your own toothbrush in the store
explaining the necessity in a child appropriate manner
other stuff that I don't remember now

I never "made" them. Both of them brush on their own accord now.

[monkey's mom]

Not all babies who are left to cry it out are emotionally disturbed. Not all kids who are spanked become violent or hate their parents. But, if you wanted (perversely for some reason) to create a child who was detached and violent, there are a number of practices, like CIO or abuse, that will greatly improve the liklihood of that outcome.

For me, coercion seems like a way to improve the liklihood of subversion, rebellion, and obedience. It also seems like a pretty good way to damage the attached and harmonious relationship I have with my kids.

Not a gaurantee, either way--obviously there are kids who are not damaged--but if I were a betting woman, that's the way I would lean.

Other people have different goals and priorities. The toothbrush and paste example, for instance. The price of 50 toothbrushes, the resources that went into making them, the pollution that they created during manufacturing, the space they will take up in the landfill--none of that is even in the same ballpark of the relationship I have with my kids.

[irinam]

Originally Posted by natensarah

But when my dd and I play like she's a badger and I have to get all the mealy worms out of her teeth, I just can't see it as "coercion".

I don't see it as a coersion either For some of the things like diaper changes and tooth brushing, the playfull approach "worked" wonders for us

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

Other people have different goals and priorities. The toothbrush and paste example, for instance. The price of 50 toothbrushes, the resources that went into making them, the pollution that they created during manufacturing, the space they will take up in the landfill--none of that is even in the same ballpark of the relationship I have with my kids.

Yes, because it has to be one or the other, right? We can either have unlimited toothbrushes, paste, etc, and a great relationship w/our kids, or we can have one toothbrush and nightly power struggles w/our children over brushing their teeth.

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by natensarah

But when my dd and I play like she's a badger and I have to get all the mealy worms out of her teeth, I just can't see it as "coercion".

Dood! I'm laughing so hard I can't see straight! Mealy worms....good stuff.

Originally Posted by natensarah

It's not like I'm holding her down and forcing the toothbrush in her mouth while she screams and kicks.

No, I agree with you. As long as she's into the game and agrees, what's the harm?

But, let's not forget that the holding and screaming situation probably goes on in lots and lots of households across the US. And for lots more than teethbrushing, you know? That's what I have problem with.

Mealy worms.........LOL

[ambdkf]

Originally Posted by natensarah

What's the distinction between TCS, and living consensually, if you don't mind my asking? Is there more to TCS?

Well, I am not an expert regarding TCS (Taking Children Seriously). When I first heard of it, I thought I would like it. Upon reading more, I don't. It isn't what happens in my house. All 4 of us are important in our home, not just the children. I found the website and followers somewhat dogmatic and the examples just didn't make sense. It didn't apply in my home and really turned me off. I realize there are those that love it, and I'm not trying to offend them. It just isn't for me. My goal is to live in community - first in my home and then the greater community. Respecting people as equals and looking for solutions that work for everyone. I try to treat all people as I would want to be treated and the next step even is treating them how they want to be treated.

I've found giving information, sharing my perspective and hearing their thoughts and perspectives (as just as valid) has served us in a variety of situations over the past 8 years. I also believe they are well equipped to make decisions when I'm not there because I see how their thought process works when I am there. As opposed to me saying when to cross the street, how high to climb, etc. They learn their own boundaries while seeking information from those they trust and themselves.

I don't go around thinking "I'm not going to be coercive today" I just find it isn't necessary and really isn't something that comes up. We talk and solve problems just like I would with my spouse or other adult. Our focus is on joy and it really has played out that way.

OK sorry off on a tangent Hope that answered your question about TCS.

Anna

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

No, I agree with you. As long as she's into the game and agrees, what's the harm?

OK, so we're on the same page here. But what about the fact that she initially refuses? I think if I were truly "non-coercive", I would just have to let it go at that.

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by johub

I have yet to see an example of a parent who chose this type of parenting based on the soundness of the philosophy who was not influenced by their own rebellious nature. Is it a philosophy based on a reaction to authoritative parenting by adults who were spirited and rebellious as children?

Me! Me! lol. My upbringing was probably very close to most gd principles. My mom did spank for "safety issues" though, but that was really rare. She was- from the time I can remember- very considerate of us 2 kids. Not non-coercive, but definitely explained stuff, and respected us as people. She found creative ways to make us want to do stuff. I like the idea of non-coercive, and I am most of the time, but sometimes I don't quite make it.

Dp too- his parents were pretty much respectful and all that (they didn't spank, they let him make choices they didn't think were the best). I guess he's not non-coercive, but he's very close. And I bet he'd be on board (at least mostly) if we talked about it.


As far as the "preparing for the real world" and "have to" do stuff, the difference between home life and the outside world is that there is a love, trust, and respect in the home that isn't present in other relationships.
Doing something to "prepare" your dc for the "real world" is kinda like getting a fish, and letting it die, to prepare dc for death he may see in the future.

And I was wondering about the diaper thing at night too. I like the theory of non-coercive parenting. I just don't understand how it works in practice for all situations. Ds is 15 mos, and pees A LOT at night, so not wearing one is not an acceptable option to me. He doesn't seem to mind much, but its obvious he would prefer to NOT get his nighttime clothes on. He'd rather play. We give him chances to come on his own, and after a while (in between activities), we get him dressed standing up or whatever he prefers. He doesn't fight it or cry or seem upset at that point, but like I said, its coersion for the fact that HE would not have chosen to get nighttime clothes on at all. It's not a hot thing, or a dislike of clothes- I think its just a "like" of being naked, and not wanting to stop what he's doing to get dressed.
What to you all make of that situation?

[irinam]

Ok, I had to "dig" for this one (was too lazy to go to the online dictionary myself )

Originally Posted by scubamama

Coerce-v: 1. to restrain or dominate by nullifying individual will; 2. to compel to an act or choice; 3. to enforce by force or threat. syn: see FORCE. (Webster's Dictionary, 1972, pg. 160.)

Pat

So, I guess playfull approach *may* fall under #2, but then even offering a boob to an infant may (as in compelling him/her to eat)

I gotta think about that one...