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You HAVE to do things... (spin-off) - Page 8

post #141 of 434
Thread Starter 
Quote:
What is for dinner?
My hubby is having tvp and brown rice with vegetables, I am making myself asian rice noodles with vegetables and this fake chicken stuff that is nummy...

my 5 month old is having a banana split... kidding of course.
post #142 of 434
I don't equate what goes on in our home with "permissive" or what I would call "hands off" parenting. What we do requires lots of work, involvement and thought. It is completely different. I think my children are incredible well served to operate in the 'real world', one because we live in it every day and two because we seek solutions to all of life's problems and that will always be a valuable skill.

Not meaning to sound defensive but just wanted to clarify that it is quite different than "permissive" parenting - in fact I think it's the polar opposite.

There is a book called "Kids are Worth it" she proposes that there are 3 types of families, jellyfish, backbone and brick wall. It's an interesting book, it is a bit different from this conversation but is an interesting perspective to consider.

Anna
post #143 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambdkf

There is a book called "Kids are Worth it" she proposes that there are 3 types of families, jellyfish, backbone and brick wall.
I for one agree- love and logic calls it drill seargent, helicoptor and I can't recall what they call the one who uses love and logic.

I do agree that there is a ton of middle ground. I know for a fact my mother never would have considered and stilld doesn't consider her parenting permissive. She would say she was inclusive or allowed me to have my own mind- she would say "self determining" or such.
post #144 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride
How do you reconcile the two things she wants,when they contradict each other? That's what I'm really getting at. I've left it alone a few times. When she's dressed, we'll go out...but she doesn't get dressed. Then, hours later, it's "I want to go to the farm". And, she can't, because it's closed and there's a meltdown. The only time this doesn't end up in a meltdown is if I put her clothes on and we leave. Every other way I've tried to deal with this has ended up with screaming, crying and tantrums.

I'd like to leave this with her. I'm not interested in forcing an outing that's supposed to be for fun!
It sounds like you are trying to solve the consequences of making choices in life. Sometimes that is not possible and empathy is all that we can offer. If I choose not to go before someplace closes, I can't go later. Que sara sara. I would provide as much notice and information and opportunity as I was comfortable providing and try to find an alternative that was as satisfactory as possible. Like going the next time it was open, going to pet the dog down the street, and reminding that if we don't want to miss the chance, we go now. Giving information over which one has no control is not limiting or restricting her in anyway, imo.

Comfort is what you can do. The meltdown is her expression of distress; but some distress in life is not preventable. But imposing things that cause it are not necessary either, imo.

HTH, Pat
post #145 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deva33mommy
And I was wondering about the diaper thing at night too. I like the theory of non-coercive parenting. I just don't understand how it works in practice for all situations. Ds is 15 mos, and pees A LOT at night, so not wearing one is not an acceptable option to me. He doesn't seem to mind much, but its obvious he would prefer to NOT get his nighttime clothes on. He'd rather play. We give him chances to come on his own, and after a while (in between activities), we get him dressed standing up or whatever he prefers. He doesn't fight it or cry or seem upset at that point, but like I said, its coersion for the fact that HE would not have chosen to get nighttime clothes on at all. It's not a hot thing, or a dislike of clothes- I think its just a "like" of being naked, and not wanting to stop what he's doing to get dressed.
What to you all make of that situation?
Let him sleep naked. Change diaper after asleep. Put clothes on sleeping child. Our son is hot natured and sleeps without pjs or covers. I sleep with pjs, a blanket and down comforter right next to him. Dh with pjs, no blanket.

Pat
post #146 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain crunchy
Wait, I don't get it. A child "chooses" their parents, they are that sophisticated even before they are a spirit inside an infant body, yet they are not capable enough to make their own tiny decisions like what they eat or whether or not they brush their teeth?

Doesn't make sense to me, seriously.
This is a deliberate misinterpretation of Johub's post, if you ask me.
post #147 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey's mom
No, no, no. That's not what I'm saying at all. I think you might be reading things into these posts and getting defensive--I hope you can hear this in the spirit it's intended.

I was just saying that someone (I don't remember who) said that they thought someone else's buying a bunch of different toothbrushes and pastes was wasteful and not something that they would do. The jist I got was that they would just tell their kid that it was non-negotiable and enforce daily brushing.

To me, that's putting conserving toothbrushes over the kids' happiness. That's not my choice. If that's someone else's choice then I feel bad for their kid b/c I know what that felt like to me growing up. Maybe they don't even realize that that's what they're doing. I don't think most people realize that they don't even treat children like people. If that doesn't apply to you, then who cares? If it does, then maybe it's a good thing for someone to point out.
I was getting defensive, because it was me that thought it was wasteful. And I think it's a little bit ridiculous, to assume that a certain toothbrush will ensure my kids' happiness. I think that would be VERY worrisome, if it really was that big of a deal, and I would be convinced I was teaching them the wrong lesson.

Instead, I think by treating toothbrushing as a non-issue relegates it to its appropriate place. It's just something you do and it has very little impact on your life.

Anyway, sorry to be defensive.
post #148 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by scubamama
It sounds like you are trying to solve the consequences of making choices in life. Sometimes that is not possible and empathy is all that we can offer. If I choose not to go before someplace closes, I can't go later. Que sara sara. I would provide as much notice and information and opportunity as I was comfortable providing and try to find an alternative that was as satisfactory as possible. Like going the next time it was open, going to pet the dog down the street, and reminding that if we don't want to miss the chance, we go now. Giving information over which one has no control is not limiting or restricting her in anyway, imo.

Comfort is what you can do. The meltdown is her expression of distress; but some distress in life is not preventable. But imposing things that cause it are not necessary either, imo.

HTH, Pat
But, if she doesn't get out, she makes everybody miserable, including herself.

I don't know. I think if I avoided being coercive (ie. didn't get her dressed and say "we're going now"), I'd be making everybody more miserable. That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me. That seems to be causing real-life distress in order to avoid theoretical distress. I try to take her out every day...and it's the same thing 99% of the time. (I was going to say "always", but for the first time in my memory, she actually put on her own pants and boots and went and chose a shirt today! My goodness would life be a lot easier for everybody if she chose this tack more frequently. Maybe it's the beginning of a good thing.)
post #149 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by scubamama
It is a process of relating with others based upon decision making (and conflict resolution) by mutual consent. The process is facilitated by identifying underlying needs in order to create solutions which are mutually satisfactory to all involved. It is not compromise, nor democracy. The compromise implies someone (or many) are less satisfied with the solution than their preference. Democrisy is dependent upon majority rule. Mutual consent implies all are satisfied with the identified common preference, without sacrifice.

Pat
What if there is no common preference?
I guess that's the real root of the "coercive" vs. "non-coercive" thing. What happens when there is no common preference? If you and ds (or me and dd) can't find a common preference, do you just do what ds wants or what you want or compromise or...what?
post #150 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by natensarah
Also, Pat, I've always really enjoyed your posts, and I think it's great if this is a way some families choose to parent. What I take umbrage at is the assertion by you and CaptainCrunchy that I am consistently disrespectful to my children because we don't parent this way.
I am sorry that you are feeling defensive. I truely am not judging anyone's parenting. One's children are the only ones able to do that. And no one but the individual can know all the variables, obstacles and challenges of one's life choices. I believe each adult is the expert and authority about himself. Just as I believe each child is the expert and authority about himself. Others disagree. I presume everyone is doing the best they can at any point in time. However, I don't believe parenting is a static dynamic in which one is inherently aware of all the alternatives; and certainly, most parents do not consider the child's pov about what is respectful or not (even about the child's own body integrity). I believe whether one treats others "disrespectfully" or "respectfully" is determined by he who is impacted by their actions. In the act of parenting, the child determines, imo. Certainly, not me or CC.

Personally, I would find it exceedingly disrespectful of me (and a violation of my body) if someone forces a toothbrush into my mouth, won't allow me to eat if I leave the table, takes food away from me if I play with it, forces a coat on me, requires me to eat vegetables, forces me into a car, locks me in a room, takes things from my hands, leaves me places I don't wish to be against my will, etc. And as such I would consider it disrespectful to do the same to any other person, including any child, even if they had a joyful life otherwise. However, choosing to respect people 'in the manner to which we prefer to be treated' is not something people "have to" do. And our culture sanctions treating children with far less respect than these issues above.

So, I don't see how feeling judged by others has any utility, benefit, or relevance to your choices in how you parent. Unless, you believe that treating your child like you would like to be treated is respectful, and it isn't occuring. Or, if you believe that treating your child like he wishes to be treated is respectful, and it isn't occuring. But most people don't want to think about these things for obvious reasons. Please don't shoot the messenger. I am glad this perspective was shared with me when our son was quite young. Treating our son in the manner that he wishes to be treated is important to me in order to be consistent with my value system. Just as treating my husband in the manner that he wishes to be treated is important to me. Learning ways to do that was the thing I "had to" figure out. I sure didn't have it modelled in my childhood and had limited resources for information

Non-coercive parenting and living consensually have provided practical tools for respecting others, even children, imo. The key aspect to me is 'go to the source' of he who is impacted to understand his perspective of my actions. My perspective is not the same as others. Nor is my child's perspective the same as mine. Finding mutually agreeable solutions which consider both perspectives as equally valid has been a process, a journey of "having to" figure out how to do that. The crux of it all seems to be 'what does the other feel and perceive?' So, my opinion is not the one to consider.....it is one's child's feelings and perception.

Pat

Pat
post #151 of 434
Thread Starter 
I don't think my response was a deliberate misinterpretation of her post. Honestly, I can't reconscile with myself how a child is capable of choosing their parents...unless she was speaking of something purely metaphorical, like God or the Universe or whatever one believes spiritually, sends us exactly what we need.

My understanding of the post though, was that it was not God or anyone that chose parents for children and vice versa, but that the children's spirits, or souls, or whatever, chose them to specifically be their parents.

My question was, how then, if a child, or their spirit before entering a body, can make such a heavy, life-changing, or life bringing experience....how then, do you explain to yourself that they are not capable of choosing what they like for breakfast.

I am honestly not trying to be snarky, but such a question comes across that way regardless of the wording... I am trying to understand how such a spirit so capable of choosing their destiny as it relates to who their parents will be, should not be able to choose whether they brush their teeth?
post #152 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by natensarah
I was getting defensive, because it was me that thought it was wasteful. And I think it's a little bit ridiculous, to assume that a certain toothbrush will ensure my kids' happiness. I think that would be VERY worrisome, if it really was that big of a deal, and I would be convinced I was teaching them the wrong lesson.

Instead, I think by treating toothbrushing as a non-issue relegates it to its appropriate place. It's just something you do and it has very little impact on your life.

Anyway, sorry to be defensive.
But what if your kids don't agree that toothbrushing is "just something you do and it has very little impact on your life"? What if they refuse? If you don't believe it is right to force your child to comply with your rules (how would you force this? hold them down?) then a parent might try to come up with other ways to help make toothbrushing more interesting to the child-- maybe by buying new toothpaste or a new toothbrush. Why would that be a problem? I'm sure most parents want this to be a non-issue, but for some kids it is an issue.
post #153 of 434
Thread Starter 
Originally posted by Scubamama
Quote:
Personally, I would find it exceedingly disrespectful of me (and a violation of my body) if someone forces a toothbrush into my mouth, won't allow me to eat if I leave the table, takes food away from me if I play with it, forces a coat on me, requires me to eat vegetables, forces me into a car, locks me in a room, takes things from my hands, leaves me places I don't wish to be against my will, etc. And as such I would consider it disrespectful to do the same to any other person, including any child, even if they had a joyful life otherwise. However, choosing to respect people 'in the manner to which we prefer to be treated' is not something people "have to" do. And our culture sanctions treating children with far less respect than these issues above.
I completely agree. I am not judging your parenting either NateNsarah, I actually think most of us here are probably really wonderful parents...especially compared to other forms of parenting, we should all get some kind of award in my book

...but I do agree with what scubamama said about how she (or I) would feel about the above mentioned situations...

I think EVERYONE is a work in progress.
post #154 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride
What if there is no common preference?
For us, we just go into it with the confidence that we can find a common preference. Sometimes we just have to be really creative and try really hard, but most times it's really pretty easy. And we have found the more we practice the easier it gets. We really listen to each other to get at the underlying need, then we brainstorm, sometimes we say really crazy, silly stuff to lighten the mood (if it's tense) then that frees us up to focus on the task at hand. I think if you went into it saying there are times when there is no common preference, you might be doomed to failure or it would appear to those involved that it's 'find it quick fix' or else mom will step in and force her will. My kids just don't have that in their mind because it doesn't happen so we are all really open and flexible to finding solutions. I think the fact that they know they have choices, always, really frees them to be contributing members of the family. We've never had an issue where something was pressing and important and someone said "no way I'm not going". I think they are flexible because they feel safe in their right to choose.

In case your wondering, I don't have what people call "easy children". My girls are polar opposites. One is incredibly physical and the other doesn't want to be touched! One wants to always be with people, one likes to be alone. One likes to go out, one likes to stay in. One is "highly sensitive" (Elaine Aron's term) and one isn't. One had a severe brain injury and resulting issues, the other younger one can do things she can't. Even with all of these things, we still make it work joyfully.

Anna
post #155 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by natensarah
OK, so we're on the same page here. But what about the fact that she initially refuses? I think if I were truly "non-coercive", I would just have to let it go at that.
I agree, I wouldn't put the tooth brush in someone's mouth. I wouldn't "let it go at that" though without giving information about my concerns, discussing the objections, understanding what might make it more agreeable and work to create that alternative. For instance, perhaps timing, taste, texture, etc. might make it more agreeable.

Pat
post #156 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by irinam
Ok, I had to "dig" for this one (was too lazy to go to the online dictionary myself )



So, I guess playfull approach *may* fall under #2, but then even offering a boob to an infant may (as in compelling him/her to eat)

I gotta think about that one...
Playful enticement wouldn't be coercive in my book. Convincing and persuading are in some (TCS) books considered coercive. I believe the fine line is crossed when "talking at" (nagging) rather than "talking with" (discussion) occurs. Or if refusal occurs and one doesn't quit pushing the boob in the mouth. I personally assume a crying infant wants a boob unless it is refused once offered. It isn't compelled to nurse. Do offer, may refuse.

Pat
post #157 of 434
Thread Starter 
I don't really get the toothbrushing thing that much. It is fact that if you even swish plain water around in your mouth that it kills about 50-60% of the germs in your mouth...coupled with a diet that isn't crazy sweet laden, nevermind the crazy flouride they are pumping into the water that even our uber cool filter doesn't remove....I don't think a child's teeth will fall out of their head if they brush well like 5 days a week out of 7.... or even 4 out of 7....

Now if you have a child who is dead set refusing, lays on floor screaming and flailing, every single time toothbrushing is even mentioned -- I would wager that has something to do with either sensory issues ... trying to gain control over one aspect of a life which may be too controlled ... fear of something (bad tasting toothpaste, toothbrush might scratch, fear that teeth like hair, might *hurt* when brushed) ...

I honestly don't think children are just trying to give us a hard time for the hell of it when they act out, I really truly do not believe that.
post #158 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by scubamama
Playful enticement wouldn't be coercive in my book. Convincing and persuading are in some (TCS) books considered coercive. I believe the fine line is crossed when "talking at" (nagging) rather than "talking with" (discussion) occurs. Or if refusal occurs and one doesn't quit pushing the boob in the mouth. I personally assume a crying infant wants a boob unless it is refused once offered. It isn't compelled to nurse. Do offer, may refuse.

Pat
I knew the explanation can be worded! Just not by me

Thank you again, Pat!
post #159 of 434
ambdkf: I get what you're saying, and it does make sense. But, I have a dd who can't even find a common preference with herself! She's very...contrary. I don't like to call it that, but it suits the best. She's a delight - believe me that I'm not complaining at all. She's the miracle baby that I waited 10 years for, and she's wonderful to have in my life. She's just...contrary.

She generally won't accept my help, but doesn't want to do whatever it is by herself. If she says she wants help, she yells at me when I try to help and says "I'll do it myself". Round and round.

And, anything that involves dd going to bed is never going to be solved by a common preference. We want her to sleep when she's tired. She doesn't - ever. It's a problem every night and every nap. She's been fighting sleep since the day she was born. Actually - does anybody have any suggestions for that one?
post #160 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by angela&avery
ok, i have a what if... what if your child (i have discovered that i have a very spirited two year old and need to go get myself some books.....) what if that child wants to color on everything but paper. What if you have a small place and not enough high places to pu things out of her reach...... (ugh she keeps getting into the art buckets) im trying to meet her creative needs.... im going ot attempt to allow her time at the table as often as i can to create.. but she wants crayons, or markers or pencils all the time and she wants to color with them and she does not want to sit. So ic an let her run around and color all over everyting when she gets a hold of them, i can get rid of all of our art stuff ( we live in a two bedroom apartment.. im working on getting a cupboard that i can lock), or i can take it away when she doesnt want to stay and color on paper. I always end up taking it away because she wont stay put them or let her have a chance to run around with her notebook only to fin dthat she has colored on the wall, mirror, her toys.

edited to add..... this results in a temper tantrum as does everything in which half them time my completely potty trained toddler ends up having an accident........... we seriously need some input on working with her....lots of tantrums ever since seh turned one.

Our son draws on and "decorates" his toys at will. I willingly provide him the tools (markers, crayons, stickers, pencil, pens, etc.). Furniture, walls, etc. are requested not to be drawn on. They aren't. Except a couple of inadvertant spots that were accidents while drawing on agreed upon objects. Apparently, it is quite a different sensory experience to draw on textured objects in addition to drawing on paper. We have Magnadoodle, construction paper, large drawing paper, white board, chalk board, outdoor paint, etc. I have placed LARGE paper on the wall, but that is when the accidental wall markings occured. : I would like to do the chalkboard paint. I have heard of magnetic paint too. And I believe some kind of 'white board' paint. He has a playroom with free access to all drawing implements and has since about age 3. Before that I watched him like a hawk and redirected.



Pat
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