You HAVE to do things... (spin-off) - Page 9

[johub]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

Wait, I don't get it. A child "chooses" their parents, they are that sophisticated even before they are a spirit inside an infant body, yet they are not capable enough to make their own tiny decisions like what they eat or whether or not they brush their teeth?

Doesn't make sense to me, seriously.

It doesnt have to. It makes sense to me. I am not trying to convince you of anything. Just sharing how I feel.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by johub

I understand if this seems bizarre to most, and brilliantly OT! LOL But since my belief that my children knowingly chose me, and knew what I would offer them at the time of that choice, I believe that this is the type of parenting they have chosen. Not everybody gets the privilege of knowing their children before they are conceived so this is not an argument that is likely to apply to many.

Is not our journey to also grow from the point of their birth through the experience of parenting? So, neither parent nor child is static; and perhaps we do have free will to make different choices than those "that your children knowingly chose". I certainly know that our son has taught me a great deal. Much more than I have taught him, I would surmise. Much of what I believe today is diametrically different than I believed before he was conceived, before his birth and after his birth. Every day we learn together how to understand another's perspective. That is what he has most taught me.

Believing "that this is the type of parenting they have chosen" seems static, imo. I wouldn't say that my childhood hasn't served me or that I wouldn't have chosen it. But I wouldn't choose it now. Perhaps your children's perspective isn't static either? Is holding tightly to "the type of parenting they chose" at the time of their choosing, what they choose now? Or did they make their bed and have to lay in it? Perhaps, we dynamically choose together how we are in relationship with others? Or does that only happen before conception/birth and at the age of majority of 16 or 18? That seems a rather convenient "excuse" for treating others as one chooses without regard to how they choose between conception/birth and age 18. And believing the children "have to" do things because they chose one as their parent to make their choices for them (irrelevant of their choices in the present) and therefore the parent will make them comply during that time of *no choice* seems paradoxical and inconsistent with honoring their choices for themselves. :

Enjoying the OT conundrum.

YOu are fortunate indeed.

Yes, it was also effort and choice of my free will to create a support system that honors and respects us as we wish to be treated. It is an active process of creating one's own reality.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by angela&avery

my biggest problem is that she colors on everything.. in books, on the couch, on walls, my rocker, on toys .. and i think it is somewhat destructive and not so much creative to be doing those things. Im a little worried about her thinking she can color on the walls without paper if we let her color on ones with paper, and then there is the issue of storage if i buy a big roll of newsprint or easels ro whatnot...we just dont have a lot of room..i have no problem with her doing anything in the kitchen as far as creating, coloring on paper... its the creating on eveyrhting else. Are all these things suppost to curb her desire to color everywhere? We have bath paints that kind of stink and we had the crayons but i had a terrible time getting them off my tub wall....... we do rent and we cannot paint the walls, also giving us the issue of her coloring on the walls, we can paint to fix it, and wash off (its mostly crayons) but she did get a hold of a permanent marker ( i swear the child is part monkey) and they are all now on top of hte fridge..... she colored on a bunch of stuff in her room with it....... i just dont know what to do iwth her except take it away when she wont stay put with them, which gives us way to a tantrum, but i am def going to try to help her find a better choice more, rather than just take it away.. i just.. when she wont listen... i dont know what to do.

Meeting the underlying needs for drawing and your engagement seem to be the issues, imo. Doing more to meet these needs so that she isn't trying to meet them in less constructive methods. Actively encouraging her to draw in mutually agreeable places with a variety of implements. By rationing or restricting her explorations she is actively attempting to still explore with the drawing implements, only away from you instead of with you, it seems.

Pat

[johub]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

I don't think my response was a deliberate misinterpretation of her post. Honestly, I can't reconscile with myself how a child is capable of choosing their parents...unless she was speaking of something purely metaphorical, like God or the Universe or whatever one believes spiritually, sends us exactly what we need.

My understanding of the post though, was that it was not God or anyone that chose parents for children and vice versa, but that the children's spirits, or souls, or whatever, chose them to specifically be their parents.

My question was, how then, if a child, or their spirit before entering a body, can make such a heavy, life-changing, or life bringing experience....how then, do you explain to yourself that they are not capable of choosing what they like for breakfast.

I am honestly not trying to be snarky, but such a question comes across that way regardless of the wording... I am trying to understand how such a spirit so capable of choosing their destiny as it relates to who their parents will be, should not be able to choose whether they brush their teeth?

Ithought I had explained it in my post but I will be happy to explain.
What I said was "However, the child born is not in the same state of knowing as they are in their spirit selves and are innocent of this world."

And I never said or implied that a child is incapable of choosing what they like for breakfast. But the societies one can be born into on this planet are numerous. Each has different culture, values, cuisine, habits etc. . . So even if we remain our spiritual knowledge and understanding at birth it does not prepare us for the society we live in. And if that child has lived before on this planet his experiences still might not prepare him because the breakfast choices as a !Kung! Bushman are different breakfast choices than the average American.

Oh and I dont think spirits have teeth. Just my opinion though.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by natensarah

I was getting defensive, because it was me that thought it was wasteful. And I think it's a little bit ridiculous, to assume that a certain toothbrush will ensure my kids' happiness. I think that would be VERY worrisome, if it really was that big of a deal, and I would be convinced I was teaching them the wrong lesson.

Instead, I think by treating toothbrushing as a non-issue relegates it to its appropriate place. It's just something you do and it has very little impact on your life.

Anyway, sorry to be defensive.

Ok, I certainly don't assume that a certain toothbrush will ensure my child's happiness. The issue is to find a mutually agreeable way to get his teeth brushed on a regular basis. For some reason, smaller ones feel better sometimes, softer ones sometimes, blue ones sometimes . What is the "wrong lesson"? That his perception of what happens to his body matters?

If toothbrushing is such a "non-issue" how is it worthy of forcing? I am confused.

Pat

[johub]

Originally Posted by scubamama

Is not our journey to also grow from the point of their birth through the experience of parenting? So, neither parent nor child is static; and perhaps we do have free will to make different choices than those "that your children knowingly chose". I certainly know that our son has taught me a great deal. Much more than I have taught him, I would surmise. Much of what I believe today is diametrically different than I believed before he was conceived, before his birth and after his birth. Every day we learn together how to understand another's perspective. That is what he has most taught me.

Believing "that this is the type of parenting they have chosen" seems static, imo. I wouldn't say that my childhood hasn't served me or that I wouldn't have chosen it. But I wouldn't choose it now. Perhaps your children's perspective isn't static either? Is holding tightly to "the type of parenting they chose" at the time of their choosing, what they choose now? Or did they make their bed and have to lay in it? Perhaps, we dynamically choose together how we are in relationship with others? Or does that only happen before conception/birth and at the age of majority of 16 or 18? That seems a rather convenient "excuse" for treating others as one chooses without regard to how they choose between conception/birth and age 18. And believing the children "have to" do things because they chose one as their parent to make their choices for them (irrelevant of their choices in the present) and therefore the parent will make them comply during that time of *no choice* seems paradoxical and inconsistent with honoring their choices for themselves. :

It is not static at all because deep down my self stays the same and even when my perspective does change it is in ways that simply are truer to my self than I previously had been. Sometimes we find new ideas and they really speak to us. And I do then change my acts and my perspective but all within a stable and cohesive outlook.
So while I originally did spank my oldest because I thought I should. It did not feel right and I sought other ways of doign things. But my heart and the type of parent I wanted to be remained the same. And that is what my children chose.
I am in a state of learning. And of course we dynamically choose how we relate to each other throughout the course of our lives together. THe way I parent my 13 year old NOW at age 13 is really quite different than when she was 3 or 8 because her needs are different.
But I am fundamentally the same deep down. I might have more knowledge of myself and what it means and how better to reach my goals.
I never meant to imply that I decided to parent in x way and that is why my children chose me. But that in choosing me they knew my heart. And what they found they were satisfied with. And with that heart I have made a progression of different parenting decisions as I have matured. But the heart is the same. Experience and knowledge have changed however.
And I believe my children have endowed upon me a sacred trust to make decisions for them, then help them make decisions until they are fully capable of making decisions themselves 100%. It is neither paradoxical nor inconsistent. THey chose to entrust me with their power and it is my sacred duty to be a good steward of that power until they are ready to take it for themselves.
Joline

[jenmk]

I have not read this entire thread, so perhaps this will not entirely apply. Forgive me if that is true.

However, I just read a reply to someone about "not making a child do something that they do not want to do." I agree with this idea . . . mostly. My 3yo suddenly decided he didn't want to go to playgroup. When we arrived, he walked into the building, but would not go into the room. I asked if he didn't want to be there, if he wanted to go home. He said he wanted to go home. So we did. I would have loved to stay and chat with the other parents, but I was not about to force him to stay. However, once in a great while I do have to make him get into his car seat. Neither of us like this experience, but it happens. 99.99% of the time I do not force him to do things. I do talk him into going along with me a lot of the time when he resists.

What struck me, however when I read that line about not making a child do something they do not want to do, is the behavior of my DH. There have been times when he very rudely did not do something that he didn't want to do, and it has hurt the feelings of my family or friends and me. Something as simple as going to dinner with my parents after they spent the day helping us move into our apartment. We didn't have much food, needed to go out to dinner, and when asked where he wanted to go, he stated that he wasn't going because he wasn't really hungry. In reality he just needed some space. I understand that feeling. But the hour or two spent having dinner would not have hurt him, though he didn't want to be there. It would have been the right thing to do. However, I had to go to dinner with my parents by myself and try to explain my DH's rudeness. I was so embarrassed by him and upset that he would do that. But it was just a case of him not wanting to do something that he really should have done, and since he didn't want to do it, he didn't do it. From the almost 8 years I've known him, this has come up from time to time, and I've realized that he and his siblings grew up in a family where they didn't ever have to do anything they didn't want to do. So they approach life that way: if I don't want to do something, no matter what it is, I don't have to do it. Now there are other issues at work in this family, and very self-centered people, but the underlying theme of not ever having to do anything they don't want to do is prevalent.

So, perhaps there is a negative side to this idea.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

But, if she doesn't get out, she makes everybody miserable, including herself.

I don't know. I think if I avoided being coercive (ie. didn't get her dressed and say "we're going now"), I'd be making everybody more miserable. That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me. That seems to be causing real-life distress in order to avoid theoretical distress. I try to take her out every day...and it's the same thing 99% of the time. (I was going to say "always", but for the first time in my memory, she actually put on her own pants and boots and went and chose a shirt today! My goodness would life be a lot easier for everybody if she chose this tack more frequently. Maybe it's the beginning of a good thing.)

I am not in your home but it sounds like she just wants to have the choice for her own coming and going. Perhaps, providing that choice more often. Providing more choices about her body more transparently. (do you want to red spoon or the blue one, the big bowl or the small one, this chair or that, sit here or there, read this book or this book, etc.) Providing a choice of where to go, when to go, when possible etc. (now or after the show, now or after we nurse, now or after a snack, now or after the nap, etc.)

And making the choice when she states no preference is perfectly logical, imo. And altering the choice when it affects her and she objects. If she doesn't want to go when you offer, perhaps offer when dh is home so that she has a real choice of coming or not. Perhaps create other physical outlets inside where her clothing choice doesn't matter. Race in circles, jump on a mattress on the floor, there are indoor swings for older children that fit in a door way, water play helps tons (in the tub several times a day with measuring cups, things to pour from, floating objects, etc.), create a game of stepping up and down a stool, make a place for doing summersaults, jumping in a circle on paper taped to the floor, jumping from a chair holding your hands, jumping up into the air holding your hands, a drum set for large motor movement, a little indoor stationary tricycle or rocky horse, or bouncy horse, or sit and spin, etc.

HTH, Pat

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

What if there is no common preference?
I guess that's the real root of the "coercive" vs. "non-coercive" thing. What happens when there is no common preference? If you and ds (or me and dd) can't find a common preference, do you just do what ds wants or what you want or compromise or...what?

This has rarely happened and subsequently I have realized multiple options which I was unable to conceive in the moment. So, I don't believe that mutually agreeable alternatives can not be found. In the heat of the moment, I try to understand 'what is the issue, objection, obstacle, need, desire, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM HERE!!???' Not only from his perspective but also from mine. What is the big deal to doing xyz NOW to me? What are the issues, objections, obstacles, needs, desires related to doing it differently, later, not at all? And I discuss my issues/problems with differently, later or not at all and I inquire about ds or dh's issues/problems with differently, later, not at all or NOW. And we just try to work it out through discussion and that has worked except for about once every few months we have some obstacle that we delay until we find a mutually agreeable alternative.

Pat

[ambdkf]

Originally Posted by jenmk

So they approach life that way: if I don't want to do something, no matter what it is, I don't have to do it. Now there are other issues at work in this family, and very self-centered people, but the underlying theme of not ever having to do anything they don't want to do is prevalent.

So, perhaps there is a negative side to this idea.

This hasn't been my experience. There is a subtle, or maybe not so subtle difference I don't seem to be communicating very well. We don't make the focus "you can do whatever you want", it is never communicated that way. We just search for solutions so in the scenario you mentioned we would talk about my feelings, my parent's feeling. We would acknowledge that dh needed some time alone and see if we could meet that AND meet the need of my parents.

So my children are not under the illusion that their behavior has no impact. In fact, I find they are much more aware of that impact than most. They are constantly thinking about how to make situations work for all. That seems really different from what you are describing with your dh and his family - of course I don't know them at all But just wanted to say that doesn't really ring true here.

Anna

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by sunnysideup

But what if your kids don't agree that toothbrushing is "just something you do and it has very little impact on your life"? What if they refuse? If you don't believe it is right to force your child to comply with your rules (how would you force this? hold them down?) then a parent might try to come up with other ways to help make toothbrushing more interesting to the child-- maybe by buying new toothpaste or a new toothbrush. Why would that be a problem? I'm sure most parents want this to be a non-issue, but for some kids it is an issue.

Yep, ds has sensory issues with oral defensiveness. He is very orally sensitive and opinionated about what goes in his mouth. Very.

Pat

[jenmk]

Anna:

I'm glad it doesn't ring true to you! It's not pleasant to experience. And there is the factor of not really being aware of how your actions affect others (or perhaps not caring).

Your family sounds VERY different from my ILs!! My family (kids and DH, and my parents and sibs for that matter) is too. Thankfully! Though issues like this come up from DH's childhood. I just gotta hope they don't get passed on to my kids.

Back to topic . . .

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

ambdkf: I get what you're saying, and it does make sense. But, I have a dd who can't even find a common preference with herself! She's very...contrary. I don't like to call it that, but it suits the best. She's a delight - believe me that I'm not complaining at all. She's the miracle baby that I waited 10 years for, and she's wonderful to have in my life. She's just...contrary.

She generally won't accept my help, but doesn't want to do whatever it is by herself. If she says she wants help, she yells at me when I try to help and says "I'll do it myself". Round and round.

And, anything that involves dd going to bed is never going to be solved by a common preference. We want her to sleep when she's tired. She doesn't - ever. It's a problem every night and every nap. She's been fighting sleep since the day she was born. Actually - does anybody have any suggestions for that one?

That will take a whole thread of its own. Do post it with particulars and I'd be glad to chime in. Btdt, doing it still. Mostly the "problem" is when I create expectations that are unrealistic. Dairy is another big issue, corn syrup, artificial colors and flavors, wheat, soy all alter our son's activity and restfulness.

Lots of possibilities.

Pat

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by johub

And I believe my children have endowed upon me a sacred trust to make decisions for them, then help them make decisions until they are fully capable of making decisions themselves 100%. It is neither paradoxical nor inconsistent. THey chose to entrust me with their power and it is my sacred duty to be a good steward of that power until they are ready to take it for themselves.
Joline

Joline, thank you for sharing your beliefs. I trust our son with his own power of Self and am sharing this journey with him. Not as steward of his power, but as advisor and mentor. And as such am entrusted to honor his own power of Self, not make decisions for him for which he is abled. You and I disagree about which decisions those are. But, I find it is much easier to discover the Truth of which decisions our son is abled to make by not 'taking' his power, rather by observing and supporting his own power of self discovery. And I guard my role as advisor, so as not to negate my opportunity to fulfil that role, by not usurping his power and creating an adversarial relationship. Thus endangering him to use his power without considering my advisement.

The onus is on me to discover, not decide, when his power might endanger himself. I am able to do this because I trust his power of judgement for himself. Just as I trusted his judgement about himself when he was hungry, sleepy, wanted to be held, etc. I believe my trust in his power of judgement protects him more than my distrust in his power of judgement could convey and extinguish his self-trust. This process of supportive Trust has worked to protect our mentor relationship too, imo. And our son does not endanger himself. He does trust me as his advisor; but he trusts himself most. There is no one who makes him do things against his judgement. And I do not believe he "has to" do things against his judgement. We both act from a place of trust, not fear.

Our son has taught me this. I was not in this place as a child, nor as an adult. I was not parented from a place of trust of my Self. Our son has helped me to learn to trust mySelf. Just as he has been supported to learn to trust himSelf. But this is based upon trusting that his choices for himself will serve the best interests of himself. And they have. Just as I have learned that my choices for myself will serve my best interests if I trust myself. And they have. I trust that they will continue to do so.

It is much easier to observe when one trusts too much, than when one trusts too little and fears too much by not allowing another their power of self and choice.

Pat

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by jenmk

I have not read this entire thread, so perhaps this will not entirely apply. Forgive me if that is true.

However, I just read a reply to someone about "not making a child do something that they do not want to do." I agree with this idea . . . mostly. My 3yo suddenly decided he didn't want to go to playgroup. When we arrived, he walked into the building, but would not go into the room. I asked if he didn't want to be there, if he wanted to go home. He said he wanted to go home. So we did. I would have loved to stay and chat with the other parents, but I was not about to force him to stay. However, once in a great while I do have to make him get into his car seat. Neither of us like this experience, but it happens. 99.99% of the time I do not force him to do things. I do talk him into going along with me a lot of the time when he resists.

What struck me, however when I read that line about not making a child do something they do not want to do, is the behavior of my DH. There have been times when he very rudely did not do something that he didn't want to do, and it has hurt the feelings of my family or friends and me. Something as simple as going to dinner with my parents after they spent the day helping us move into our apartment. We didn't have much food, needed to go out to dinner, and when asked where he wanted to go, he stated that he wasn't going because he wasn't really hungry. In reality he just needed some space. I understand that feeling. But the hour or two spent having dinner would not have hurt him, though he didn't want to be there. It would have been the right thing to do. However, I had to go to dinner with my parents by myself and try to explain my DH's rudeness. I was so embarrassed by him and upset that he would do that. But it was just a case of him not wanting to do something that he really should have done, and since he didn't want to do it, he didn't do it. From the almost 8 years I've known him, this has come up from time to time, and I've realized that he and his siblings grew up in a family where they didn't ever have to do anything they didn't want to do. So they approach life that way: if I don't want to do something, no matter what it is, I don't have to do it. Now there are other issues at work in this family, and very self-centered people, but the underlying theme of not ever having to do anything they don't want to do is prevalent.

So, perhaps there is a negative side to this idea.

Jen, my dh and ds are highly sensitive introverts. I am neither. Dh and I have been married for almost 23 years. It took until about five years ago to realize it really, really does pain him to spend too much time with people. He physically needs to decrease the mental and emotional stimuli. I just thought, he was a stick in the mud at times. Ds is highly sensitive to sounds. He can identify every instrument in the orchestra by sound. Music is a passion of his. But when we go to the symphony, the intensity of all the sounds that he can discern is overwhelming in an accoustic environment. In a restaurant, it is very distrubing to our son to hear the cacophony of sounds and voices and noise of everything going on. You might investigate "The Highly Sensitive Person" or "The Highly Sensitive Child". I know of many people with intense sensitivities and it is a gift of intense awareness. But it is also an overstimulating and overwhelming experience, especially when combined with introversion. And if spending time with your parents is like mine, a little goes a long way with dh. Even if they helped ya move, send them a Halmark card and a gift card to their favorite restaurant. But scolding and discounting dh's experience won't help matters, from my experience.

We frequently use the phrase "I need some space". I consider this a polite and authentic way of expressing an emotional need. And this is what I request our son express when he needs time alone. We try to honor that need as equally valid as a need for food or a need to show appreciation.

The perpective of "right thing to do", "embarrassed by him", "rude", "would not have hurt him", "should have done", "self-centered" are a lot of judgement to apply to another's equally valid experience, imo. But, I learned this the hard way, myself with dh.

HTH, Pat

[alamama]

Fascinating thread! I mostly lurk, but wanted to chime in.

Pat, I've read your posts on a number of threads and love the long lists of possible solutions to given conflicts. They so effectively illustrates how many possibilities there are if we think creatively. It is so easy to get trapped in either/or thinking.

Dairy is another big issue, corn syrup, artificial colors and flavors, wheat, soy all alter our son's activity and restfulness

.

This really struck me because this is one area where I anticipate an internal struggle (ds is too young for it to be an issue now). We have very strong views about nutrition in our house (as I am sure others here do) and at home it will not likely be much of a problem, as we only keep healthy food in the house. But when we are out and about, junk food is everpresent. There are some so-called foods that I would prefer not to give to anyone, child or adult, because I truly believe they are harmful. So I imagine a grocery store scenario where ds is asking me to buy some such food...how do we reach a mutually beneficial resolution? Perhaps: offer to buy a healthier "treat," make muffins or cookies when we get home, suggest a fun activity or game instead...????

I'm just curious how you handle it when your son wants to eat foods that you know will adversely affect him. I would guess that the older a child gets, the more able you are to talk about foods and the impact they have on our bodies. With conversation, I think children could identify how they feel with a sugar high/crash, for example. So do you talk through these things but still purchase these kinds of food if he wants them?

I should add that I think children will often make healthy food choices when that is what they are exposed to, and I do wonder how making any food "off limits" foods simply increases its appeal.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by alamama

Fascinating thread! I mostly lurk, but wanted to chime in.

Pat, I've read your posts on a number of threads and love the long lists of possible solutions to given conflicts. They so effectively illustrates how many possibilities there are if we think creatively. It is so easy to get trapped in either/or thinking.


.

This really struck me because this is one area where I anticipate an internal struggle (ds is too young for it to be an issue now). We have very strong views about nutrition in our house (as I am sure others here do) and at home it will not likely be much of a problem, as we only keep healthy food in the house. But when we are out and about, junk food is everpresent. There are some so-called foods that I would prefer not to give to anyone, child or adult, because I truly believe they are harmful. So I imagine a grocery store scenario where ds is asking me to buy some such food...how do we reach a mutually beneficial resolution? Perhaps: offer to buy a healthier "treat," make muffins or cookies when we get home, suggest a fun activity or game instead...????

I'm just curious how you handle it when your son wants to eat foods that you know will adversely affect him. I would guess that the older a child gets, the more able you are to talk about foods and the impact they have on our bodies. With conversation, I think children could identify how they feel with a sugar high/crash, for example. So do you talk through these things but still purchase these kinds of food if he wants them?

I should add that I think children will often make healthy food choices when that is what they are exposed to, and I do wonder how making any food "off limits" foods simply increases its appeal.

Off to bed, but short answer is that we have always discussed it and he trys things occasionally to see if they are still an issue. He listens to his body and has free choice. We buy lots of "healthy" processed alternatives from EarthFare and I bake. He is 4.5 y/o almost.

Pat

[Englishmummy]

:
great thread

[captain crunchy]

Scubamama said:

I trust our son with his own power of Self and am sharing this journey with him. Not as steward of his power, but as advisor and mentor. And as such am entrusted to honor his own power of Self, not make decisions for him for which he is abled. You and I disagree about which decisions those are. But, I find it is much easier to discover the Truth of which decisions our son is abled to make by not 'taking' his power, rather by observing and supporting his own power of self discovery. And I guard my role as advisor, so as not to negate my opportunity to fulfil that role, by not usurping his power and creating an adversarial relationship. Thus endangering him to use his power without considering my advisement.

The onus is on me to discover, not decide, when his power might endanger himself. I am able to do this because I trust his power of judgement for himself. Just as I trusted his judgement about himself when he was hungry, sleepy, wanted to be held, etc. I believe my trust in his power of judgement protects him more than my distrust in his power of judgement could convey and extinguish his self-trust. This process of supportive Trust has worked to protect our mentor relationship too, imo. And our son does not endanger himself. He does trust me as his advisor; but he trusts himself most. There is no one who makes him do things against his judgement. And I do not believe he "has to" do things against his judgement. We both act from a place of trust, not fear.

Our son has taught me this. I was not in this place as a child, nor as an adult. I was not parented from a place of trust of my Self. Our son has helped me to learn to trust mySelf. Just as he has been supported to learn to trust himSelf. But this is based upon trusting that his choices for himself will serve the best interests of himself. And they have. Just as I have learned that my choices for myself will serve my best interests if I trust myself. And they have. I trust that they will continue to do so.

It is much easier to observe when one trusts too much, than when one trusts too little and fears too much by not allowing another their power of self and choice.

I completely agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! (per usual)

[jenmk]

Originally Posted by scubamama

Jen, my dh and ds are highly sensitive introverts. I am neither. Dh and I have been married for almost 23 years. It took until about five years ago to realize it really, really does pain him to spend too much time with people. He physically needs to decrease the mental and emotional stimuli. I just thought, he was a stick in the mud at times. Ds is highly sensitive to sounds. He can identify every instrument in the orchestra by sound. Music is a passion of his. But when we go to the symphony, the intensity of all the sounds that he can discern is overwhelming in an accoustic environment. In a restaurant, it is very distrubing to our son to hear the cacophony of sounds and voices and noise of everything going on. You might investigate "The Highly Sensitive Person" or "The Highly Sensitive Child". I know of many people with intense sensitivities and it is a gift of intense awareness. But it is also an overstimulating and overwhelming experience, especially when combined with introversion. And if spending time with your parents is like mine, a little goes a long way with dh. Even if they helped ya move, send them a Halmark card and a gift card to their favorite restaurant. But scolding and discounting dh's experience won't help matters, from my experience.

We frequently use the phrase "I need some space". I consider this a polite and authentic way of expressing an emotional need. And this is what I request our son express when he needs time alone. We try to honor that need as equally valid as a need for food or a need to show appreciation.

The perpective of "right thing to do", "embarrassed by him", "rude", "would not have hurt him", "should have done", "self-centered" are a lot of judgement to apply to another's equally valid experience, imo. But, I learned this the hard way, myself with dh.

HTH, Pat

Pat:

I appreciate your perspective and experience on this. However, it sounds as if your DH and mine are very different. I guess it just hurts me when he acts this way because I HAVE TO spend time with his family and it's no picnic for me. I make the best of it, smile and make pleasant conversation, even when all I want to do is run to the car, lock the doors, and speed away. But I do it because they are important to him, and I love him. And, frankly, it's the right thing to do--be nice to my in-laws, make it a pleasant visit when we're there. I expect the same of him. Of course we do have very different families, and I do understand that it's not easy for him either. But you just don't be unneccessarily rude to people who are important in you or your partner's lives.

And in the example I gave about my parents . . . they were staying the night with us because they lived to far away to come help and go home the same day. Can't really hand them a thank you card and send them for a free dinner without us in that situation.

Thanks for your input, though. Gives me some things to ponder.