parents won't take responsibility for religious circs - Page 2

[merpk]

Originally Posted by kewb

Truthfully, I find people who are this opinionated on this subject as offensive as the right to lifers who stick their noses in other peoples uterus'.

Yeah, that.

[LavenderMae]

Originally Posted by merpk

Sheacoby, I forgot, you identify as atheist. So anything anybody does relating to their beliefs you find questionable.

Yes I am Atheist but I absolutley do not question everything relating to someone's beliefs. But I guess it's a good excuse for you to let yourself discount what I say though. However I do question cutting parts off a baby's genitals no matter what the reason behind it is.

[3daughters]

Read this. Maybe it will help you to understand the Jewish perspective.

http://www.aish.com/literacy/lifecycle/Bris_Milah_Beautiful_or_Barbaric$.asp

[alegna]

I can see the argument that it is a religious requirement. As someone who is not of that religious group, I do not understand it, but it is not mine to understand. However, in my mind, if we allow religious MALE circ. then we must also allow religious FEMALE circ. Plain and simple. It is not the government's position to decide which religion is more vaild.

(for the record I am personally against both, quite strongly, and would attempt to convice anyone against it- but if we're talking legalities...)

-Angela

[jenP]

Originally Posted by Sheacoby

I am involved because I believe circ is a Human Rights violations.

:

I'm sure the Aztecs and Druids have incredibly deep, spiritually meaningful, powerful personal reasons why they need to obey their gods and perform human sacrifice. There is no reason to enter a religious debate with followers of these religions. They simply are not allowed to perform human sacrifice in this country as it is against our secular laws. Also, Rastafarians may not smoke ganja and First Nations people may not take peyote for the same reasons. I've even heard of followers of Santeria not being allowed to do a ritual sacrifice of a chicken (even though it is legal to kill a chicken.)
I guess what I'm trying to say is that religious debate will not convince anyone and will only create bad feelings. Passing secular laws to protect human rights may be a more effective avenue for our energies.

Jen

[merpk]

Originally Posted by Sheacoby

Yes I am Atheist but I absolutley do not question everything relating to someone's beliefs. But I guess it's a good excuse for you to let yourself discount what I say though. However I do question cutting parts off a baby's genitals no matter what the reason behind it is.

Sheacoby, I didn't discount what you said at all. You said doing this in the name of "god" didn't sit well with you. I said of course, nothing in the name of "god" sits well with you. You're an atheist. Atheists by definition do not believe in "god."


Your concern for human rights is admirable. So I'll assume that whatever other human rights violations concern Jewish families, you will also take up the banner? Can I count you in?



And my response to the OP stands.

[merpk]

Yes, good. Go pass laws. There have been many, many nations that passed laws outlawing bris mila.

IN EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, pogroms and murder of Jews followed.

IN EVERY SINGLE ONE.



So please, go pass your laws. And then tell me how concerned you are with the human rights of Jews.

[LavenderMae]

Making infant circ illegal in this country (US) will affect a lot more non-Jews than Jews. It would NOT be a law outlawing Bris Mila but outlawing infant circ. It would NOT be a law against Jewish people at all. I do not think it would in any way (and would fight against such) lead to the killing of Jewish people. We have already done that with female circ in this country, thank goodness.
Personally I want to see RIC outlawed w/or w/out religious circs being included.
It isn't the Jewish religion I take issue with it is infant/child circumcision that I have issue with.
BTW, I do not discredit or dislike many things people do in the name of their god. Many things sit quite well that are done in the name of god.

[merpk]

Pardon the belligerance, but ...


I don't care if you like or dislike anything I do. I'm not asking for your approval. I don't care about it one way or the other. I don't want your understanding. Not interested.

I just want you to not post misinformation and insults as if they're a good argument for your beliefs.





I respect MDC's stance against RIC or any circumcision. It is Peggy's place and her opinion and choice. I do not post EVER looking for approval of my beliefs or practices. Not interested. I do post when threads like this are just trying to insult.

Go ahead and tell everyone you meet not to circ their boys. Good. I'll join you. Just leave me and mine out of it. It's your issue. Not ours.

[LavenderMae]

Hmmmm didin't ask you to care. I'm not trying nor give a flying fig if you want to understand my stance or if your interested in it. You made some falsehoods about how I view things and so I corrected you.

Well I think it's an issue for humanity as a whole but I understand it's not something you are personally willing to explore, that's fine. I am still going to keep on knowing and speaking out that infant/child circ is absolutely a violation.

[Medusa]

My most serious and earnest question is why infants?
That's the part that I just can't understand...admittedly I know little of Judaism...but if circumcision is a pact or agreement with god then why wouldn't that be made by and adult who at least understands and agrees to it?
That would seem much more meaningful to me. I strongly disagree with infant baptism for the same reason.

Can someone help me understand this?

[thismama]

I am not Jewish. I am anti-circ as a rule. But I do hold respect for the fact I cannot know what a Jewish mama's reasons for circing her sons are.

The closest I have come is merpk's posts.

I am not understanding at all the allegations that merpk is "hiding behind" religion. From her post circing her sons caused her heartache. Why would she do it if she did not truly believe it was right?

[kewb]

Originally Posted by Sheacoby

It isn't the Jewish religion I take issue with it is infant/child circumcision that I have issue with.

I normally do not involve myself in discussions of circumcision because it is difficult to keep emotion out of it. No one really states their case in the best way when emotion gets in the way. But this statement truly bugs me. To me it is no different then saying I have no issue with Catholics but they are not really Christians (Yes, I am aware that their is no removal of any part of a Christian body part in this analogy).

You believe that circumcision is some form of child abuse. That is certainly your right. A religious person who believes they are following the commandment of G-d is not going to agree with you. There is really nothing left to discuss. You are free to tell every pregnant woman you see that they should research circ. Give them literature stating your case. And then you should walk away and drop it.

[LavenderMae]

Maybe if only Jews circed then your anology would be somewhat right. However, most people who circ here (again US) are NOT Jewish. So my stance against circ doesn't really have anything to do with religion actually it has nothing to do with it. I am against infant/child circ. Now when a discussion like this comes up then I will voice my opinion that circ is wrong even done in the name of religion .

What you quoted from me means exactly what I wrote. I am strongly against infant/child circ, I am NOT against the Jewish religion. There is a HUGE difference and I am baffled by the fact me stating that bugs you.

[thismama]

Yes Sheacoby, but neither you nor I understand what circ is about in the Jewish tradition.

The allegation that Jewish people pick and choose Torah verses to comply with does not hold water... Christians do this all over the place!

If change re: circ within Jewish culture is to come, it will have to come from within that culture. Not from members of the dominant culture insulting Jewish people by saying they are "hiding" behind their religion. Not from members of the dominant culture who do demonstrate that they do not understand what circ is about for Jewish people. Not from laws that mirror antisemetic laws at other times in history.

If you want to fight against circ in general, I say go for it. I am right there with you. But it is important to have respect for a culture of which we are not part, and which we cannot fully understand.

[kewb]

Originally Posted by Sheacoby

What you quoted from me means exactly what I wrote. I am strongly against infant/child circ, I am NOT against the Jewish religion. There is a HUGE difference and I am baffled by the fact me stating that bugs you.

It bugs me because because to me it sounds like you really do have something against the Jewish Religion because we practice Circumcision. I do have a better understanding of your position that most people circ'ing in the US are not Jewish.

[LavenderMae]

Originally Posted by thismama

If change re: circ within Jewish culture is to come, it will have to come from within that culture. Not from members of the dominant culture insulting Jewish people by saying they are "hiding" behind their religion. Not from members of the dominant culture who do demonstrate that they do not understand what circ is about for Jewish people. Not from laws that mirror antisemetic laws at other times in history.

Most people who circ here are NOT Jewish. It is culturally American to circ infant boys.
I actually don't even agree with the hiding behind religion sentiment of the OP, it's deeper than that I do believe that.

[Junebug]

So what the f*** do you care about me and my sons?

I don't pretend to know about Jewish tradition.
I don't know you from a can of beans & I could care less what you do in the name of your religion.
I do however, care about your infant sons. I have an emotional response when I think of any baby enduring that kind of agony.
I mean no disrespect... but come on! I can't have an opinion about the pain your babies went through?!





My instinct as a mother is what guides every decision I make. Maybe I'm just a faithless turd but NOTHING could inspire me to hand over my child to be cut. I'm not judging you, I just don't get it.

[crazy_eights]

Wow - stay up an night with a newborn and look what happens when you come back after a few hours nap....

I don't think anything I could say could top Amy's eloquent post. I would add a few things.

Having gone around and around this mulberry bush over the years at MDC, there seems to be this idea that if we would just 'question G-d' we would come to the same conclusion about bris milah that we have about RIC. Or that a loving G-d wouldn't ask us to circ our sons. Well, here's the deal as hard as it may be to accept. I buy into an entire system comprised of 613 Torah based commandments along with the oral tradition of how these commandments are to be performed. I accept that they are divine in origin and created by a loving G-d that desires what is best for me and my people. I do not pick and choose among them which ones I do/don't do *once I have bought into the system*. And while the QOP might think she is very clever with her quote from Leviticus (though I suspect she's been reading that e-mail making the rounds or saw it on West Wing), I'll stand right there with Amy and say without the oral law, she hasn't a clue what she is talking about. And for the record, we don't pluck out 'eyes for eyes' either. The oral law tells us so, and that is part of the beauty of the system.

Were I to devise a system of law, no, I would not include bris milah. However, having accepted that this is a system created for Jews by a loving G-d who understands what it good for me and my children *better than I do in my limited human understanding*, I do it and no amount of 'questioning' is going to convince me that I shouldn't. I know that point would stick in the throat of many here, but I want you to understand that is where most of us are coming from.

As for the orignial circ being different, with all due respect to Daryl, my husband, a rabbi, claims that this is based on a academic misunderstanding of the oral law and what was originally required vs. what is required today.

[BelovedBird]

Originally Posted by QueenOfThePride

Amy do you also believe:

Leviticus 20:9 All who curse their father or mother must be put to death.

If your child curses you, would you kill him?

Deuteronomy 22:13-30

Do you think that if a man finds that his new bride is not a virgin, that she should be taken back to her father and stoned to death? Do you think that any man or woman who commits adultury should be stoned to death? Do you think that if a young girl is raped, she should be forced to marry her rapist?

Knowing circumcision hurts your baby and still doing it, is the same as seeing a homeless person in winter and saying, "Well, I pray that you stay warm tonight," and not giving them a coat or hat or anything.

Not Amy but I'll answer.
I believe in following the torah, completely. The torah, bot the written torah and the oral.
Your post of course is a quote from the xtian bible- has little in common with my faith. And the OP is the complete antithesis of torah. No torah observant jew says they "had to" "circ" their child.
I choose to follow the torah and chose to give all of my sons a bris milah.