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parents won't take responsibility for religious circs - Page 12

post #221 of 384
Amy, Nebekh indeed.
post #222 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by numom499
And again....regarding the OP. I believe that someone who does not practice any other facets of Judaism, and has their son circumsised in the hospital at a couple of days old, and claims to have done it because they are Jewish, is yes, IMO, "hiding" behind their religion.
Yes. In fact, I have a personal experience with that. Friends of mine, dh pagan, dw cultural Jew, were expecting a boy. The dh told me they were planning to circ, b/c "that is what Jews do" and "b/c it is cleaner."

But he admitted his dw's family was not observant and did not want a bris. One (non-Jewish) friend had told them that it was hard to keep an intact penis free of poop.

Pretty weak reasons.

So I sent him the Mothering article and they didn't circ.
post #223 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by bleurae
I cannot do this whole thing anymore, it is making me very ill, it is like arguing torture with a torturer. It depresses me so I actually lost sleep.

I *think* this is one of those comments that are offensive.

This is nothing like arguing torture with a torturer.

If you are losing sleep over this - loving parents doing as God directs them, then perhaps you need therapy....(see how offensive comments feel?)


ANyone who is not Jewish, really has no business questioning their practices. These Jewish mamas love their babys just as much as all of us non-circers. They are doing what they believe is right. Sometimes we need to do what god commands us even though it might make us uncomfortable. THere are times when I don't feel like I have the money to tithe. But Gods wishes trump everyhting for me as a Christian. I imagine its quite the same thing for these jewish mamas. Sure, if they did not feel commanded by God, they wouldn't do it. Why would they? But again, there are people who spend their lives making every decision on what would be pleasing to God.

I really am surprised that that is so hard to understand in a community where most proclaim to be liberal and accepting of all other viewpoints.
post #224 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaryLLL
Yes. In fact, I have a personal experience with that. Friends of mine, dh pagan, dw cultural Jew, were expecting a boy. The dh told me they were planning to circ, b/c "that is what Jews do" and "b/c it is cleaner."

But he admitted his dw's family was not observant and did not want a bris. One (non-Jewish) friend had told them that it was hard to keep an intact penis free of poop.

Pretty weak reasons.

So I sent him the Mothering article and they didn't circ.
OK. Much deifferent scenario than these mams here.

Honestly, Jewish mamas, you have nothing to defend. The original post was not referring to you
post #225 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2seven
link as a side topic to an epidemiologists review of the evidence for HSV transmission via metzitzah bepeh. But do we really want to go there - again?
I didn't want to be drawn into this hot thread, but I just can't let this stand like that.

This link is nothing but an opinion piece, and it even states so in the text. It is not accepted scientific evidence. It has not been peer-reviewed (and it is unclear whether it has been printed by "Pediatrics" as a letter). There is only one medical article quoted (and that one quite obscurely), so it is impossible to verify anything.

I'm particularly weary of this final statement:

In summary, metzitzah bepeh has a perfect safety record for 2000 years with regard to bacterial infections and viral infections.

Where is the database with the medical records of those 2000 years of metzitzah bepeh? A few 100 years ago, mankind didn't even know that bacteria and viruses existed. When a boy got sick or died after his circumcision, it just happened and was probably ascribed to the will of God. No one ever examined whether the mohel had transmitted a disease to the baby. So no one can know whether babies have been infected with HSV in the past 2000 years or not.

While he might have some points that can (and should) be discussed in the medical community, this article is very, very far from putting an end to the discussion of HSV transmission through metzitzah bepeh. So, yes, I think we have to go there again eventually.


Some people on this thread are really doing a great job trying to make us intactivists understand how Jews feel about circumcision. I have learned a lot. Even though I don't agree with any non-medical circumcision of persons too young to give consent themselves, I have great respect for people like Amy (your first post here was absolutely heartwrenching, very powerful, moving, but also very sad!). But this kind of "smoke screen science" is exactly what makes Jewish circumcision advocates look bad in our eyes.

Stardust
post #226 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by numom499
ANyone who is not Jewish, really has no business questioning their practices.
We shouldn't questions things we feel are Human Rights Violations because they are done in the name of a religion? I don't think anything is above questioning wether I partake or not.
post #227 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheacoby
We shouldn't questions things we feel are Human Rights Violations because they are done in the name of a religion? I don't think anything is above questioning wether I partake or not.
WHAt is the point???!~?!?!?!?!?!

Some people are going to do things because GOD Commands them to. Not because Sheacoby shoves studies in their faces.

I think it is pointless to discuss it with Orthodox observant Jews. THey are doing it for reasons that we would never consider.

Completely different than those who claim to be Jewish and have their babes circed in the hospital.

Thats why I said to the Jewish mamas that are replying that the OP must not be referring to them.
post #228 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheacoby
We shouldn't questions things we feel are Human Rights Violations because they are done in the name of a religion? .

And really, as some jewsih mama ahs said repeatedly on here (cant remember who) there are bigger "Human-rights-violations-against-jews- fights" to pick if you are really interested...

nak
post #229 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by BelovedBird

Mutilation. And now we are torturers too.

Pretty darned scary stuff, how in one thread you can be so quickly dehumanized. I hesitate to say it, because I hadn't seen it so clearly up until now, but I *do* know what happens once you can effectively dehumanize people.
post #230 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by numom499
OK. Much deifferent scenario than these mams here.

Honestly, Jewish mamas, you have nothing to defend. The original post was not referring to you
So who was it referring to, because the only other people who circ for religious reasons are Muslim. So ok Jewish moms you are off the hook, it's those damned evil-hearted Muslims again?

Golly, I feel much better now.
post #231 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahdokht
So who was it referring to, because the only other people who circ for religious reasons are Muslim. So ok Jewish moms you are off the hook, it's those damned evil-hearted Muslims again?

Golly, I feel much better now.
M, we just said who it might have referred to, and it was not to you! It referred to non-observant Jews who have it done casually by a dr in a hosp on the 1st or 2nd day and call it a Jewish circ.
post #232 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahdokht
So who was it referring to, because the only other people who circ for religious reasons are Muslim.
BTW, I linked to studies made of some Africans and Australians who also circ for religious reasons.
post #233 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaryLLL
BTW, I linked to studies made of some Africans and Australians who also circ for religious reasons.
Circ boys? I missed that, I'll go look again.
post #234 of 384


To mamas persected everywhere, but especially JEws throughout history.

1. Its funny that I am on this thread defending circ. I am vehemently opposed to it in all other circumstances. When not done as a commandment of God's I do see it as barbaric. I have read all the arguments at nocirc.org. My own boys are intact All those arguments make sense to me in my head. However, if God, told me to circ my son, I would do it. Because God's will is what I have chosen to follow, not my own.

2. As far as it being barbaric, many non-Jewish parents take their sons to Mohels, because they are so much kinder than in the hospital. THe babe is surrounded by people who love him. It is usually a smaller circ (IME) and they do offer the babe pain relief by way of a tiny bit of alcohol. MY dh (raised catholic) was circumsized many years ago, in a hospital with no pain relief, by a stranger His parents weren't even in the same room!!!! That, to me, is barbaric.
post #235 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahdokht
So who was it referring to, because the only other people who circ for religious reasons are Muslim. So ok Jewish moms you are off the hook, it's those damned evil-hearted Muslims again?

Golly, I feel much better now.

No. Mahdokt. I do not mean that. Honestly. I meant that the original post must have been referring to Jews who do not follow any other facets of their religion, yet circ in the hospital at a few days old, rather thatn the Jews trying to observe all of the Mitzvahs.

I do not think Muslims are evil.
post #236 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaryLLL
M, we just said who it might have referred to, and it was not to you! It referred to non-observant Jews who have it done casually by a dr in a hosp on the 1st or 2nd day and call it a Jewish circ.

TY, ty, darryl.

That is it exactly.
post #237 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by numom499
And really, as some jewsih mama ahs said repeatedly on here (cant remember who) there are bigger "Human-rights-violations-against-jews- fights" to pick if you are really interested...

nak
Well I see circumcision as a worthy Human Rights cause. And not in anyway did I even imply there aren't other worthy Human Rights causes. However this particular thread is about circumcision, no?
post #238 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by numom499
Some people are going to do things because GOD Commands them to. Not because Sheacoby shoves studies in their faces.
First off some of us believe circumcision is a Human Rights Violation no matter who commands it and secondly I am not shoving anything into anyone's face.
post #239 of 384
Wow.
I can't believe I made it through the entire, sometimes ugly thread.
Jew here. (insert waving smiley here.)
Son not circ'd.
I am not Orthodox though.
Not Conservative, not Reform, not even Reconstructionist.
Interested in some aspects of Jewish Renewal, mostly Jew-by-culture, Pagan-by-choice.

And I could never be Orthodox, because I don't accept circ.. and don't accept lots of other things, either. I like Lobster, for example. And I need to drive on Saturday cause I work on Saturday.

However.
I know full well that Amy, Beloved Bird and others recognize me.. and my intact son.. as Jewish. It isn't an issue. My son comes from a long line of Jews and he is Jewish, foreskin and all. And I am quite confident no one will ask him to drop trou if he decides to go to Shul. Not an issue.

What IS an issue is that you have a whole bunch of non-Jews arguing with Orthodox Jews about religious circ.
And there is a total disconnect here.

Amy explained it.
It is because God said so.
For Orthodox Jews... end of story. Though the Observant Jews here have offered more explanation than that.

But most of you just don't get it.. because you aren't Observant Jews. And because you can't strip off your own lenses and look through theirs.

I too am an intactivist.
But I say that SOME intactivists are barely able to hide the anti-semitism that goes along with their intactivism. A thing I am always suspicious of.

Some merely can't hide their religious insensitivity.

And some can't seem to see that arguing Torah with Observant Jews will not accomplish intactivist goals..
though it certainly will bruise a lot of feelings and reveal some ignorance and some anti-religious bigotry.

And yeah, Mahdohkt.. no doubt many who cloak their anti-Semitism in intactivism don't like Muslims much, either.

Observant Jews are a tiny percent of the U.S. population.
I don't understand the focus on THEM.. instead of on the many many non Jews who choose hospital circ for no good reason.

Unless there is something besides intactivism behind it.
post #240 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheacoby
Well I see circumcision as a worthy Human Rights cause. And not in anyway did I even imply there aren't other worthy Human Rights causes. However this particular thread is about circumcision, no?

And others see it as a religious freedoms, no?

If you were debating circ in general, that would be one thing. But debating it for Jews, is different, and IMO, inappropriate.
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