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parents won't take responsibility for religious circs - Page 17

post #321 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaryLLL
I was asking can a child convert? Your reponse was confusing. mom2seven's was not.

Thanks again, mom2seven.
Confusing and mocking are *not* the same thing last I checked.

My response was not intended to be confusing but to point out my confusion at the wording of your question.
post #322 of 384
Never mind BB!
post #323 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahdokht
Quirky,

I'm not gonna derail this conversation. The point is that you have yet to provide the "credible argument from the pro circ" side. You have glanced at it from an outsiders point of view and made a decision, but sources of Islamic law are universal amongst Muslims. And you can't just go around making something an obligation. This is a very big deal for us. Obligations come from God, period. "These hadith" and a few links doesn't answer the question, but I'll withdraw the question it's really another thread. Point is, there is no credible argument that Islam requires a woman to be circ'd and some Muslims woudl say there isn't a credible one that Islam requires it for boys either, hence one major school of Islamic law stating that it is not an obligation.

Don't want to discuss a specific religion? Don't bring it into the conversation.
You are again misreading my posts. Why are you insisting that female circ be an obligation of Islam in order to answer the question posed? Do you dispute that there is a hadith that discusses female circ, and that there are those who believe that female circ is a virtue? Sources of Islamic law may be universal, but it doesn't seem that their interpretation is.

Whether or not female circ is required or a virtue, whether or not you believe that female circ is allowed or forbidden by your interpretation of Islam, do you support parents who choose to cut their girls in the name of Islam? Or any religion?

ETA: it's very interesting to see the diversity of opinions available online in English on female (and male) circumcision. Ex: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503543886
post #324 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by BinahYeteirah
Well, I don't think you are going to get any Jewish mamas to say that they support FGM, or the right to do it, because that goes against our religion. I understand that some people say it is a religious requirement for them. Judaism says that women are "born circumcised" and that we do not need this mitzvah as men do. I do not have the sources in front of me that take about this, but I believe they imply that we are already made as G-d willed and that we don't need this to bring us closer to G-d.
So you oppose FGM because it contravenes the tenets of Judaism? Would you support a law denying other parents the right to practice their own religion by circumcising girls, such as the US statute outlawing all female genital cutting for any reason?

Do you see the slippery slope this leads to? You oppose the practice of someone else's religion that requires genital cutting because it conflicts with your religious beliefs yet you defend your own practice of genital cutting.
post #325 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirky
You are again misreading my posts. Why are you insisting that female circ be an obligation of Islam in order to answer the question posed? Do you dispute that there is a hadith that discusses female circ, and that there are those who believe that female circ is a virtue? Sources of Islamic law may be universal, but it doesn't seem that their interpretation is.

Whether or not female circ is required or a virtue, whether or not you believe that female circ is allowed or forbidden by your interpretation of Islam, do you support parents who choose to cut their girls in the name of Islam? Or any religion?
i support all religious freedoms,,,
post #326 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirky

Do you see the slippery slope this leads to? You oppose the practice of someone else's religion that requires genital cutting because it conflicts with your religious beliefs yet you defend your own practice of genital cutting.

:
post #327 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheacoby
Vicki, that was a very thoughtful post.
I agree with most everything you said.
Circumcision isn't something that you can later choose not to have been done and the fact is it is altering someone else's genitalia for your beliefs. Your son can't get his foreskin back if he later decides he doesn't want to be circumcised. But your children can decide not to breastfeed, homebirth or homeschool their own children. I guess really I wish that the boys themselves had a choice of wether they wanted to be circumcised for religious reasons. But since it is a religious requirement for the parents as well that isn't possible.

Everyone who has been circumcised suffered.
But there are many people who feel that they would sufffer more (infinitely more) if their parents did NOT give them a bris mila.

Also, you totally ignored her comments about vaxing. Who made the "wrong" choice, the mama who didn't vax whose child is now deaf, R"L, or the mamas who vaxed and now have children who were hurt or killed?
post #328 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirky
So you oppose FGM because it contravenes the tenets of Judaism? Would you support a law denying other parents the right to practice their own religion by circumcising girls, such as the US statute outlawing all female genital cutting for any reason?

Do you see the slippery slope this leads to? You oppose the practice of someone else's religion that requires genital cutting because it conflicts with your religious beliefs yet you defend your own practice of genital cutting.
I never said I oppose it, I just said I don't support it.
post #329 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by BinahYeteirah
I never said I oppose it, I just said I don't support it.
ty for the clarification
post #330 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by BinahYeteirah
Well, I don't think you are going to get any Jewish mamas to say that they support FGM, or the right to do it, because that goes against our religion. .

Actually, you did say, you didn't think Jewish mamas would support even the right of others to practice FGM.

FTR,

I support all religions rights....

I personally am opposed to FGM, but I do support others rights to do as their religions dictate. THere is a difference between supporting the act, and supporting some others persons right to commit the act.
post #331 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirky
You are again misreading my posts. Why are you insisting that female circ be an obligation of Islam in order to answer the question posed? Do you dispute that there is a hadith that discusses female circ, and that there are those who believe that female circ is a virtue? Sources of Islamic law may be universal, but it doesn't seem that their interpretation is.

Whether or not female circ is required or a virtue, whether or not you believe that female circ is allowed or forbidden by your interpretation of Islam, do you support parents who choose to cut their girls in the name of Islam? Or any religion?

ETA: it's very interesting to see the diversity of opinions available online in English on female (and male) circumcision. Ex: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503543886
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, sorry a google search or two does not even begin to make you any sort of authority on this issue. I'm not avoiding the question. I asked you a question and you responded. Remember? I was continuing *that* conversation. It happens in threads, more than one conversation at once.

Frankly, I don't care what the law says. I will continue to practice my religious beliefs. That's my position. Others will likely do the same. You want to outlaw all circ? Start writing your legislature.

And one hadith does not a requirement make, nor does that hadith state anything about this being a requirement.

ETA: Nowhere in this thread have I asked anyone to support my religious right to do anything. Not once. I'm not interested in your support of something that you find repugnant. I don't think anyone else has either.
post #332 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by numom499
Actually, you did say, you didn't think Jewish mamas would support even the right of others to practice FGM.

FTR,

I support all religions rights....

I personally am opposed to FGM, but I do support others rights to do as their religions dictate. THere is a difference between supporting the act, and supporting some others persons right to commit the act.
I am not going to go out and campaign for the right to do FGM, as it contradicts my morality. If others want to start a movement to reinstate the right to do FGM, I will not oppose it, either. I am just going to stay with the status quo on this one.

To me this is the same as someone saying that they are pro-life, but that they do not oppose the laws that give the right to chose abortion. Maybe they don't support the laws, but they don't want to actively change others' right to chose.
post #333 of 384
[QUOTE=mahdokht]
Frankly, I don't care what the law says. I will continue to practice my religious beliefs. That's my position. Others will likely do the same. QUOTE]


Thank God! I agree 100% with this. Could you imagine all that would have been lost if throughout history anytime a government banned certain religions, those of that religion stopped practising????
post #334 of 384

bs"d

I don't feel I am making really informed comments about FGM, I need to do some more research on it. I've read a little, but not enough to know what the religious significance of the practice is for those who believe in it. Sorry.

Don't have time now; this thread has been a big time-eater for me already. Must do some stuff first, but I will be back!
post #335 of 384
[QUOTE=BinahYeteirah]I am not going to go out and campaign for the right to do FGM, as it contradicts my morality. If others want to start a movement to reinstate the right to do FGM, I will not oppose it, either. I am just going to stay with the status quo on this one.

QUOTE]

I am not going to go out and campaign either. But, if those who felt it necessary for their religions wanted to do so, I would not campaign against them either.
post #336 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahdokht
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, sorry a google search or two does not even begin to make you any sort of authority on this issue.
You asked her to support her views. She supported them. And then you diss her sources and her methods? Harsh. Perhaps she has more and was being brief. She has a big interest in this subject as one can see from her sig.

When I was googling yesterday I saw a study being done at a university on this subject (FGM) and the differences between how "traditional" and "Quranic" Islam view it.

I think maybe if a person wanted to keep the bris or Islamic male circ legal, one should support relgious female cutting as well. A double standard will only last for so long.

I'm saying "maybe" b/c I have not thought it through real hard.
post #337 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by numom499
Could you imagine all that would have been lost if throughout history anytime a government banned certain religions, those of that religion stopped practising????
Um, read the history of the Catholic church lately? The real one, not the made up one?


Hard to practice yr religion when you're dead from being burnt at the stake.

ETA: google Hypatia
post #338 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaryLLL
You asked her to support her views. She supported them. And then you diss her sources and her methods? Harsh. Perhaps she has more and was being brief. She has a big interest in this subject as one can see from her sig.
I didn't ask for links to what others think. I asked her to prove her point from primary sources. She made a statement, I was very clear in what I was asking for in backing it up. Anyway, I've said all I needed to in this discussion. I'm done.
post #339 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaryLLL
Um, read the history of the Catholic church lately? The real one, not the made up one?


Hard to practice yr religion when you're dead from being burnt at the stake.

ETA: google Hypatia
No kidding. What is your point? That Christians have persecuted people? No kidding.

My point was that throughout hisory, different religious groups have been persecuted, and always there have been people within those groups that continued to practice even though it was agianst the law. And thank God they did.

Am I missing something here?
post #340 of 384
Yes. Certain religions are dead, extinct, and their deaths are not all from natural causes, is my point.

If any have survived in some form, they have been made into jolly folk tales which are called myth or fables and no longer perceived as religion in any meaningful way.

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