parents won't take responsibility for religious circs - Page 3

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Medusa

My most serious and earnest question is why infants?
That's the part that I just can't understand...admittedly I know little of Judaism...but if circumcision is a pact or agreement with god then why wouldn't that be made by and adult who at least understands and agrees to it?
That would seem much more meaningful to me. I strongly disagree with infant baptism for the same reason.

Can someone help me understand this?

so I'm going to be obnoxious and quote myself here...but this is an honest question. No agenda or anything attatched to it...I promise I don't don't have an arguement or lecture I'm waiting to hit you with when you answer...I just really want to understand this.

[crazy_eights]

B/c the commandement is to circ (perform bris milah) 'all your sons' on their 8th day of life. The commandment is incumbent on the child's father and if we said 'well, we'll wait until he is an adult' the father would be in violation of Torah law for every day he didn't do this.

[BelovedBird]

Originally Posted by Sheacoby

Making infant circ illegal in this country (US) will affect a lot more non-Jews than Jews. It would NOT be a law outlawing Bris Mila but outlawing infant circ. It would NOT be a law against Jewish people at all. I do not think it would in any way (and would fight against such) lead to the killing of Jewish people. We have already done that with female circ in this country, thank goodness.
Personally I want to see RIC outlawed w/or w/out religious circs being included.
It isn't the Jewish religion I take issue with it is infant/child circumcision that I have issue with.
BTW, I do not discredit or dislike many things people do in the name of their god. Many things sit quite well that are done in the name of god.

What a great idea! Work on outlawing RIC, in the hospitals on the newborn babies, done for absolutely no reason. That is great idea. When thats all done you can start with jewish persecution, uh, I mean human rights violations...

[LavenderMae]

Originally Posted by BelovedBird

you can start with jewish persecution, uh, I mean human rights violations...

That is completely uncalled for. You can make your point with out saying I want to persecute Jewish people. How dare you even insinuate that about me, how f'ing dare you.

[Lucky Charm]

Stumbled upon this thread...

I dont think Merpk hides behind anything.

I don't think religious reason are "hiding"

And its not my place to say it is.

[BelovedBird]

Originally Posted by Sheacoby

That is completely uncalled for. You can make your point with out saying I want to persecute Jewish people. How dare you even insinuate that about me, how f'ing dare you.

I don't think it was uncalled for, but whatever, maybe its my pneumonia fogged brain distorting reality.

The historical fact is that the banning of bris milah has always ended in or was included in a program of persecuting jews, murder of jews, etc. And often the excuse of "human rights" was used.

Leave the jews out of it and go get RIC banned in the US. I wish you much success- that's a worthy cause!

[Kim22]

Some friends of my sister-in-law just had their son circ'd at the hospital at one day old because "we had to have him circumcised, we're Jewish." What do you all feel about the Jewish families who have their sons circumcised in the hospital? In cases like this I agree with the OP that they're hiding behind their religion. These people aren't practicing Jews. I suspect that they just wanted a good excuse to have him circ'd (for American 'cultural' reasons-aka: "everyone else is doing it", I suppose) without feeling guilty. If they were doing it for Jewish religious reasons, shouldn't they be having a bris?

[LavenderMae]

Well you saying I want to persecute Jews is very insulting and untrue. So, yes it is uncalled for and done in a insulting manner on purpose I assume (which is also uncalled for).

When I say infant/child circ is a Human Rights Violation I am not hiding behind that so I can secretly persecute Jews , which would NOT be the only religion affected btw. I truly believe circ is wrong and ALL people I have the right to intact genitalia, that is where I'm coming from.

[kewb]

Assuming banning RIC is successful. Do you then say it is okay if you do it for Religious reasons? If the answer is no, then the next logical step is to get laws that ban religious circumcision. This would then be persecuting someone based on their religious beliefs.
Whereas I do not necessarilly think you are on a crusade against Muslims and Jews that seems to be the only place to go.

What if these religious groups continue the practice even if there are laws against it? Should the parents be arrested? Prosecuted? Their children removed from them?

[LavenderMae]

Those are very good questions and hard to answer. I do not think circ done in the name of religion is right, I know that offends many here (it is not my intention) but it is honestly how I feel (and some don't give a sh!t what I think and I understand that as well). However, I am also I firm believer in religious rights/freedom. My inner issue is which right trumps the other, religious or Human rights. I tend to think Human Rights trump but that doesn't mean I am out or will be out campaigning against religious circs.
You will be prosecuted if you circ your daughter in this country (US) even if you strongly believe it is a part of your religion, I agree with this law 100%.

[BelovedBird]

Originally Posted by Kim22

Some friends of my sister-in-law just had their son circ'd at the hospital at one day old because "we had to have him circumcised, we're Jewish." What do you all feel about the Jewish families who have their sons circumcised in the hospital? In cases like this I agree with the OP that they're hiding behind their religion. These people aren't practicing Jews. I suspect that they just wanted a good excuse to have him circ'd (for American 'cultural' reasons-aka: "everyone else is doing it", I suppose) without feeling guilty.

I don't feel good about it. And it doesn't fulfill the religious requirement, since hospital circ on a newborn is not a bris milah.

If they were doing it for Jewish religious reasons, shouldn't they be having a bris?

Yes, they should.

kewb, stop RIC. Stop wasting your time on this discusson and get to work!

[DaryLLL]

Never mind.

:missingstafl

[BelovedBird]

Originally Posted by Sheacoby

Well you saying I want to persecute Jews is very insulting and untrue. So, yes it is uncalled for and done in a insulting manner on purpose I assume (which is also uncalled for).

When I say infant/child circ is a Human Rights Violation I am not hiding behind that so I can secretly persecute Jews , which would NOT be the only religion affected btw. I truly believe circ is wrong and ALL people I have the right to intact genitalia, that is where I'm coming from.

I never said *you* *want* to presecute jews.

Start with RIC.

[mahdokht]

Someone stated that if we allow male infant circ. for religious reasons, then we must allow female circ as well. What religion demands the circ. of women?

ETA: I honestly don't know why these threads pop up. Really, is this serious questioning? You will never be comfortable with religious circ and you will never convince those of us who do it that there is something wrong with our God or our scriptures or our interpretations of those scriptures, especially since you rarely know enough about our religious beliefs to engage in any serious discussion of the issue. So why bother?

I know the general assumption is that religious people are stupid, unfeeling, unthinking. I love the CONSTANT accusation that we won't "explore our beliefs" or struggle with them etc, because anyone who knows anything about meaningful faith knows that it is a constant struggle, an intellectual endeavor, an true journey involving the mind primarily. Yes, it is possible for people to have faith and disagree with you and still use their minds and hearts. There, that's it. It's possible.

Amy, BB...

[LavenderMae]

Originally Posted by BelovedBird

I never said *you* *want* to presecute jews.

Start with RIC.

You qouted my post and then wrote the bit about persecution so yes I do believe it was directed at me. If you didn't mean it to be directed at me then you should have either 1. not quoted my post or 2. said it wasn't directed at me. I don't take it lightly when someone accuses me of wanting to persecute a group of people. It is beyond insulting and I do believe you know that.

[DaryLLL]

Originally Posted by mahdokht

I know the general assumption is that religious people are stupid, unfeeling, unthinking.

That is a large statement. I hardly know what you mean, mahdokht.

I love the CONSTANT accusation that we won't "explore our beliefs" or struggle with them etc,

Who is "constantly" suggesting that? Here? In the world at large?

Of course religious people always struggle mightily with their beliefs. And those religions do change b/c of it. Change, grow, split into sects, syncretize, often die off.

because anyone who knows anything about meaningful faith knows that it is a constant struggle, an intellectual endeavor, an true journey involving the mind primarily. Yes, it is possible for people to have faith and disagree with you and still use their minds and hearts. There, that's it. It's possible.

I agree with you M.

[mahdokht]

Originally Posted by DaryLLL

That is a large statement. I hardly know what you mean, mahdokht.



Who is "constantly" suggesting that? Here? In the world at large?

Of course religious people always struggle mightily with their beliefs. And those religions do change b/c of it. Change, grow, split into sects, syncretize, often die off.



I agree with you M.

DaryLLL I see that accusation on MDC quite often, both here and just recently in News and Current Events. It's also becoming more common in arguments between those who have faith and those who do not 'round these parts. That is, if you have faith in God, you can't possibly think because somehow the two are mutually exclusive.

[crazy_eights]

Originally Posted by mahdokht

I love the CONSTANT accusation that we won't "explore our beliefs" or struggle with them etc, because anyone who knows anything about meaningful faith knows that it is a constant struggle, an intellectual endeavor, an true journey involving the mind primarily. Yes, it is possible for people to have faith and disagree with you and still use their minds and hearts.

Yup, that.

[ber]

Originally Posted by mahdokht

ETA: I honestly don't know why these threads pop up. Really, is this serious questioning? You will never be comfortable with religious circ and you will never convince those of us who do it that there is something wrong with our God or our scriptures or our interpretations of those scriptures, especially since you rarely know enough about our religious beliefs to engage in any serious discussion of the issue. So why bother?

I can't believe "So why bother?" is being asked here on MDC.

I agree that it's not likely that either side will sway, but what about people who are choosing to do a form of a bris without cutting anything?



Anyhow, I understand how the OP could be offensive to some, and I really am appreciating being able to read all these responses.

[mahdokht]

Originally Posted by pisces79

I can't believe "So why bother?" is being asked here on MDC.

Then just stick around for a few years.