Mild Pertussis?

[mothermadness]

My daughter is 8 and was vaccinated. Last month she started a terrible spasmatic cough that would last for hours. Escpecially at night. After several trips to 2 different doctors who prescribed allergy and asthma medications, a blood test revealed that she had been exposed to Pertussis. We are told it is a mild case. It's awful. Tonight she coughed every 15 seconds for 4 hours. Two antibiotics and several cough medicines haven't made a difference. The allergy and asthma medications seemed to make it worse. We are into our 4th week. We're told this could go on for 6-8 weeks. I'm ready to pull my hair out. This is an awful sickness and I can't imagine a young child with a full blown case. I believe that several children in school have more than just a common cold this year and should be tested.

[Plummeting]

That doesn't sound like a mild case at all. The fact that your doctor told you this is a mild case suggests that your doctor doesn't know what (s)he is talking about. In fact, by your daughter's age, pertussis is usually nothing more than a nuisance. My DD had pertussis at 6 months old and she was hardly sick. She would have spasmodic coughing about 10 times a day, followed by vomiting, then a loud whoop. Then she'd be fine for a couple hours until it happened again.

I think your problem is in the way they've been treating the illness. It has been documented that antibiotics make pertussis WORSE, not better!!! Furthermore, asthma medications are usually steroids. Steroids depress the immune system, which would also make ANY illness worse. Were the medications they gave your daughter steroids?

I'm not sure why you posted this. Are you looking for help in treating your daughter's illness, or are you suggesting that we should all run out and vaccinate our children? Obviously, the vaccine didn't work for you, so why would you want us to vaccinate our children?

[jojospok23]

I had pertussis two years ago, was never vaccinated as a kid because of seizures. I found the only thing that helped was keeping a bottle or bottles of water next to my bed for when things got bad, taking swigs of water soothed the cough. I have asthma too, and my steroid inhaler made it worse.

[Plummeting]

Since you haven't read up on pertussis, here is a link to a study, with some quotes you may find interesting, in light of the bad information your doctor has given you:

Most cases of whooping cough are relatively mild. Such cases are difficult to diagnose without a high index of suspicion because doctors are unlikely to hear the characteristic cough, which may be the only symptom. Parents can be reassured that a serious outcome is unlikely.

"The infrequency of paroxysms even in the severe phase (mean 13.5 a day) meant that a doctor was unlikely to hear one."

"Many children had only three or four paroxysms a day, mostly at night."

"Most of the adults and parents did not think that they or their children were particularly ill. They did not suspect whooping cough, and often took considerable persuading of the diagnosis. Many cases were detected while searching for the source of another patient's infection. Those identified in this way often said that they would never have considered going to a doctor since, although the cough was severe, it was infrequent."

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte...l/310/6975/299

You can see by reading the above information, that pertussis is usually a mild illness. Think about it, it was so mild many of the parents wouldn't even have considered seeing a doctor for it. Your daughter has been unfortunate enough to have come down with a SEVERE case, not a mild case! And what's worse, the doctors have mismanaged it, making it even worse. Your doctors really need to educate themselves if they think what you're going through is a "mild" case! Idiots.

But I forgot to say that I hope your daughter gets well soon! I'm sure she will be fine. Give her lots of vitamin C and try not to stress too much.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by mothermadness

My daughter is 8 and was vaccinated. Last month she started a terrible spasmatic cough that would last for hours. Escpecially at night. After several trips to 2 different doctors who prescribed allergy and asthma medications, a blood test revealed that she had been exposed to Pertussis. We are told it is a mild case. It's awful. Tonight she coughed every 15 seconds for 4 hours. Two antibiotics and several cough medicines haven't made a difference. The allergy and asthma medications seemed to make it worse. We are into our 4th week. We're told this could go on for 6-8 weeks. I'm ready to pull my hair out. This is an awful sickness and I can't imagine a young child with a full blown case. I believe that several children in school have more than just a common cold this year and should be tested.

Calm down my dear.

That's because your airhead of a doc has no idea what he is doing, and the medical profession doesn't know how to treat whooping cough anyway.

Because you are new, (and in no state to be taught how to use the search functions) I will put up some of my old posts

REad them, and have a cup of tea while you do it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

First....

Read this:

http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorba...-p1884-eng.htm

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Second go to the archives and read "Antibiotics can make pertussis worse."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And since there has been much posted on whooping cough, and people being worried about it, I will file this, and add to it, as time goes on, to make it more comprehensive....and I guess it might become the stock response.... short of an archived thread on information relating to Whooping Cough...but here, for now, is a compilation of things said in the past about whooping cough...

Well, two weeks into a cough, and it could be.

But here is the sequence.

First they get a cold, which after a week, just seems to go.

then they start the odd cough, and after about two weeks, it starts to get strong. If you watch them, they go cough, cough, cough, cough, cough, cough, cough (and at this point are starting to go pink in the face, cough, cough, (and at this time are starting to wonder when they can have an in-breath) cough, cough, and then right at the end, they stop coughing, and the inbreath is really fast, because they want to expand their lungs.

At the end of the cough, (about a month in), they might bring up a glob of fairly thick mucus. This is because it pools down the bottom of the lungs, because the toxin from the bacteria has finally cut off most of the hairs in the bronchials that sweeps the mucus up and around, like a non-stop river to keep the surfaces moist. The cough sounds dry-ish, and that's because the mucus membranes aren't being kept as regularly moist as they normally are.

Most children, so long as they constantly get that mucus up, and do not pool it (where secondary bacterial infections can set it) only have "problems" when they are coughing. The rest of the time they are normal. Coughing can be provoked by touching the back of the tongue, eating food, or running around.

Oh, and towards the end, if you tell them off, they automatically start coughing. You might think its diversionary tactics, but I think its because they tense up, when you tell them off, and that scrunches pooled up mucus, and triggers the cough....

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This woman had a baby, so it may not be quite so relevant,only you can say:

Dear XXXXX

First thing you need to do is cool it. Your emotional scale is off the Richter line, and that is natural - it happens to all of us. But it doesn't help the thinking process. You need to stand back and think clearly.

So this is what I would do if my child had the problems yours does. I would continue the way you are and:

I would get a sheet of paper and put it, and a pen where it isn't going to get covered up. then I would write down exactly the progression leaving spaces, because you would be amazed at what you remember as time goes by. (If you do need professional help, this record becomes invaluable. Tell them to read it, not ask you ad nauseum repetitive questions!)

I would watch her carefully throughout the day, and write down everything including how I was feeling. If she felt hot I might take her temperature, but that wouldn't mean much. I would under no circumstances use tylenol or its like, or any cold medicine.

I would know that if it is a cold, there is absolutely nothing they can give her. If it is an earache, they might offer antibiotics, but I believe the side-effects of that outweigh the advantages, particularly as antibiotics don't work for earaches anyway. But they do suppress the immune system and often mothers find that 6 weeks after antibiotics, they are back in square one again.

What I would do in the mean time, is take a good Vitamin and mineral supplement to help my body deal with the emotional stress, and on top of that I would take 30,000 IU's of Halibut Liver oil, and about 10 grams of vitamin C spread out over waking hours. I use powdered sodium ascorbate, and I mix it (10 grams = 2 heaped teaspoons) in with 1.25 litres of water in a pop-top bottle. I would put it next to my feeding chair (a rocking chair) and drink it gradually throughout the day. I would also give myself a loading dose of 5 grams in half a glass of water.

I would express some breastmilk into a cup, and put a pinch of Vitamin C powder into it, and mix it. Then using a plastic eyedropper, I would dribble this into the babies mouth gradually over a few minutes. Don't squirt it in - just drip it in, bit by bit. Or I would insert the dropper in as she fed, which would make it easier. The reason for this is that it takes about 8 hours for the vitamin c you take to get through to the breastmilk, and I wouldn’t want that gap. A Pinch is about 250 mg. Bear in mind here that they assess antibiotics on the basis of 350 mgs per kg of body weight. So 250 mgs is pathetic really. If I thought my baby was really sick, then I would calculate Vitamin C for her at 375 mg/kg of body weight, and give that over waking hours, perhaps also worked so that a larger dose is given just before night.

If you are wary of Vitamin C read the following:

http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/index.htm

http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorba...1.htm#appendix

As this is going on I would write and watch. If I became really concerned, I would go to my doctor, but only because I know he won't automatically react by writing a prescription, or throwing me in hospital without very very good reason. If the stuffiness is just in the nose, and the cough is just a normal cough, then I would just continue that until it got better.

BUT WHAT SAY IT IS WHOOPING COUGH? WHAT I DID...GENERAL ADVICE. (This is not "shouting" this is a breaker in the page. You can read further or not as you chose.)

If the cough changes, and becomes me more of a bark, and more regular, I might have to consider that it could be whooping cough. After all, it is around, the vaccine doesn't work, and it is primarily spread by vaccinated kids anyway. So this changes the picture.

Whooping cough cannot be correctly diagnosed without a nasopharyngeal swab because other pathogens like adenovirus can cause an identical syndrome - as can other bacteria, so the swab must be tested with the PCR (polymerase chain reaction) test. Any other tests are useless. Regardless of the outcome, some general principles remain the same in dealing with any cough in terms of management. Read on, and take what you want out of this. If you don't like it, forget it.

If she has got whooping cough, the doctor will try to make you give her erythromycin - which does NOT shorten, or do anything to lessen the course of the disease from what I have seen in this country. They "say" it stops the baby from coughing as much bacteria into the environment for others to catch!!! But it can also really stuff up the gut, and make babies hyper-irritable. Everyone I know who has been given it, has thrown it out in disgust as it has made the total situation much much worse. Do not argue with him. Take and fill the prescription. If you chose not to give it, have it on hand, but do not tell the doctor, because in some instances in this country, failure to give prescribed medicine has lead to the child being removed from custody. In one case, the child nearly died from the side-effects of the antibiotics, which were brochio-edema and urticaria (hives). Not good, on top of whooping cough.

In my case, I have a good doctor who would never do that to me. We had discussed it way before the kids decided whooping cough was the in thing. Besides which, they were number 70 and 71 in his practice with whooping cough that year, and were the only unvaccinated ones.... but some people I know do not go near their doctors if they suspect whooping cough - even for the test - because they are too scared of what will be said or done. I don't know what the situation is like where you are. You might feel quite safe, in which case the diagnosis is what you need - since it will prove that your child does not need another jab, and does/will have immunity.

There is only one effective treatment in babies IMO for whooping cough, and that is vitamin C. We have used it with our children, grandchildren, and other babies (It feels funny to be parents and grandparents at the same time). It does not stop the disease - it modifies it, and makes the cough much much milder. The cough in our kids went down to at least a quarter the intensity it was. But you still have to know how to manage it, because the problem with whooping cough in babies is the quantity of mucus it produces and the babies relative inability to use the stomach muscles to cough properly. If that mucus is not shifted, then secondary bacterial infections set in, and it is these which can cause the problems.

With any cough, particularly whooping cough, here is what I do. I turn the baby round, with its back to mine. I split my legs, so the baby is supported around the tummy but the legs are straight down. My hands make a net around the baby’s ribcage and tummy, and when the baby coughs, I lean forward slightly and use the hands as a very gentle net so that the baby has something for the tummy to push against. I give the baby some pressure to use, but I do not press in hard. They haven't learned to control their abdominal muscles to get an efficient cough yet, so that hands make it much easier for them. If it is whooping cough, then you will get a thick clear mucusy glob ejected onto your floor. Better out than in. Don't attempt to catch it, or you may drop the baby. I just put newspaper on the floor and caught it that way. If it is whooping cough, then the cough will become more regular. Maybe every hour, on the hour. This is because it takes around an hour for the mucus to pool at the bottom of the bronchial tube. Write the time of each coughing spell down at the beginning, to see if a pattern establishes. This will help with diagnosis. Why write it down? Because life will become so hectic you won't be able to remember, and your paper pad will be your memory. It will enable you to look back clearly, without panic, and see what the progression is.

Somewhere else I posted the basis of whooping cough. The cough is caused by the bacteria adhering to the bronchial walls, and secreting a toxin which cuts of the cilia (hairs) in the bronchials. These hairs sweep the mucus up and sown the throat. The bronchial hairs moves the mucus around all the time, so that it replaces and at the same time gets rid of any pathogens. (If it didn't do this, then we would die of all the bacteria and viruses and muck we breathe in that gets stuck in it.)

This mucus is part of the inate immune system. It is linked to the BALT (Bronchial associated lymphatic tissue) as I understand it. (Just put that in in case someone decides to rain down coals on my head..) so you must keep the mucus moving. What whooping cough does it by cutting off the hairs, it stops the mucus moving. So long as you keep the mucus moving your baby should not get a secondary infection.

The other thing the toxin can do is get into the blood-stream, and irritate the body. If the baby's immune system is not so good then this toxin can get to the brain as well, but I have never seen that. (this is why 1 in 200 babies die from it - "their" figures which I am repeating back to you, because I don't believe them. I think only 1 in 200 babies who have received standard medical treatment, or no treatment whatsoever might die --- but I have never seen a baby treated and managed the way I am describing have any major problems)[/quote]

If the mucus is not got out bacteria will grow and cause a secondary bacterial infection, which they will want to treat with antibiotics. They say whooping cough in rare cases, can cause long-lasting bronchial problems. Yes it can, if you treat it the way the doctors do IMO, doing nothing other than antibiotics. Just using antibiotics does not deal with the pooling mucus, or manage it, or deal with the toxin. If you keep the mucus moving (you can also use gentle postural drainage if you want) there should be nor further problems other than the cough itself.

The vitamin C neutralises any toxins in the blood and should stabilise the baby. You will have to take it yourself and/or give it until the coughing stops. It is easier and cheaper IMO to give it directly to babies. If you take it yourself, you can never be sure your baby is getting what it needs, because you might be more stressed than you think, and your body may be using up more than you estimate. With our children, the coughing lasted full on for two weeks (oldest) three weeks (youngest)another 4-5 weeks consistent cough, then another month just the odd bark...

The whooping cough will last the normal time - supposedly 100 days...., but it will be nuisance value only. You are breastfeeding. You will notice if it is whooping cough, that each time you feed, this will provoke a cough. Usually just as your let-down does the proverbial New York fire hydrant trick. Deal with the cough first - let the milk spray. Get the mucus up, then put the baby back on the breast straight away, and there will be no cough because the mucus has gone, and she will take the full feed. But you both might be wet, and sticky….your front and her back…..

IME, babies with whooping cough, sleep lightly. I organised the house so that I slept with the babies in a huge double bed (on the floor, not raised) and during the day, apart from toilet stops, well planned,…. I spent most of the day in the rocking chair if the baby was asleep, or put them in the back-pack if I needed to do job, though I got a couple of well-placed mucus globs down the back of my neck....

Everything was organised so that I got the maximum sleep, as sleep deprivation for the mother is the main problem. Littlies seem to be for ever bounding with energy, even though they are coughing - somehow they cope with sleep in short burst better than we do. Though I broke my toe too at the time, which didn't help.

Cleaning - went out the window - I concentrated on cooking, dishes, and keeping up with the washing. A bath or shower was when hubby was at home, and on hand to help - to do baby as well...

I have missed out such things as homeopathics. That is because I have not found they worked very well for this. For older children, they seemed to be better, but there is no set remedy. Each outbreak has slightly different characteristics, and though the books say that Drosera is the right thing to use, in the last outbreak here, moschus and mephitus did better. Although some kids needed a dose of sulphur to clear a constitutional block, if the dose wouldn't "hold" Sounds a mystery a bit. But with our family, we just got on with the job.

I have noticed this with some children, but not with babies:. …that .. If you get in quick enough with a constitutional remedy you can abort whooping cough. But several of my friends who did this - their children just got it the next time around. I don't know if it is possible to abort it with a baby. We have never succeeded, but that may be because we are "dumb" or something. If it could be aborted, then yes, try it - as it is easier for older children to cope with whooping cough than for babies.

Important Addendum.

After whooping cough, for the next 6 - 9 months, any cold that the child gets, that child will start to "Whoop", or cough the same way as they did with whooping cough. The reason for that is that it takes a long time for the hairs to grow back, and so any infection without proper hairs in the bronchials, will result in mucus pooling.

It is this mucus pooling that has to trigger a cough strong enough, to get the mucus from the bottom of the bronchials up to the top.....

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To a mod here, whose baby had it:

If they are coughing until they are purple, then your doses of vitamin C are much too small.

Bump them right up to the level of 375 milligrams per kilo of body weight over the waking hours, as a starting dose.

If your dose is right, within 8 hours there should be a two third reduction in the coughing.

Do not ever regret that they have got whooping cough. If it is treated correctly it will, in the end, be a very good priming for their immune system.

Yes, if it is handled incorrectly, then it can be very very hard on them.

But there is enough information here, to give you some confidence to be able to do it right...

There is no reason to use antibiotics, unless the mucus they spit up becomes green in colour, and even then I'm dubious as to its value. Clear away the mucus properly and it should resolve. Also, make sure the child drinks enough, to keep the mucus as thin and easy to get up as possible.

But as I said, it sounds like your vitamin C doses are simply way way too low.

With xxxx I used something like 8 grams a day, and xxxx was about double that. Every child is different, and will need different amounts...

Okay, have had more time to have a better read, and get my marbles together...went and read the other thread which gave the ages..

9 months.

Yup, they are right at that age, that hasn't gotten the hang of their diaphragms.

Unless they cough at the same time, you will have to use the holding technique to give them support.

I presume?? you are taking the vitamin C, not giving it to the??

(could be wrong, but have to ask)

Express for each child, every hour, a tsp on breastmilk. put a pinch or two of sodium ascorbate in it, and give it them on a spoon -AFTER a coughing spell. So you could have it on hand if you want. Or express several spoon fuls, put several pinches in, but mix before you give them a spoon. But I'd do it fresh.

All the time. Shove it in.

Set up a piece of paper for each child, magnetted onto the fridge, and tie a pen nearby so that you don't absent-mindedly walk off with it..... and keep track of their doses. One of the reasons they are finding it hard to get up the mucous is because they aren't running around, and moving.

Now, I KNOW you are exhausted. BUT ... it might be a good idea if you could do a five minute dance holding each child. every hour. This may provoke a coughing, because you are jiggling the mucuous for them, as they would be were they running around. IMO, it is the inactivity of babies that leads to problems.

The ONLY reason they are coughing so long and hard, is that they have large amounts of mucous there, because of their relative inactivity. If you can make them cough a bit more often, the cough mightl be shorter, since the mucous might be less.

Having said that, this works with SOME children, and not with others.

Think about this. If you have a cold, at the beginning stages, do you feel more blocked up if you just lie there? I do. Babies are the same. if they just lie there and do not much, they get more congested. At 9 months they won't be doing too much...

And

If you have a stubborn little tyke like my oldest, who doesn't let anything "beat" him, then they have some lessons to learn. My oldest was 8. But it took him two weeks to learn to relax and let the cough happen instead of fighting it.

You can help them to cough more efficiently by helping the stomach muscles.

do you have back packs? If so, when your husband comes home, that is his job. Half an hour for each child in the back pack, for a brisk moronic walk around the property. Within about 300 yards, coughing will start. Deal to it with the stomach hold to support the diaghragm, then whats the bet the baby falls asleep (if otherwise fed and okay...)

Hubby needs me, I will come back...asap...

in this country, the average 9 month old girl is about 10 kgs in weight. I don't know if your two are about that.

But say they are.

That's easy. 10 x 375 = 3 grams and 750 mgs per day over waking hours.

That's one level teaspoon of sodium ascorbate minus one pinch, so who cares about the pinch.You have to get that much into them in each waking day.

So, how are you going to do it? give it in their juice, in expressed breastmilk on the spoon, any conniving way you can.

If they get lots of gas, and become even looser than a breastfeeding baby is, then you pull back on the dose to 3 grams.

You have to experiment.

you may find this is too much for one, but no where near enough for the other.

Now YOU,.... my dear.

You also need Vitamin C, A, E. AND.... AND..... lots of probiotics, and a good B supplement. You need plenty of minerals, and make sure that you are taking everything well balanced. I want if possible, lots of mineral through to the babies, because they need this to kick start in the Vitamin C.

I know its hard.

I know its exhausting.

Can you find someone who is prepared to cook you some meals. You need to be snacking on decent meals every two hours> By decent I mean what you like, what is best for you. Not large quantities, but just enough to grab a few mouthfulls and keep you going.

I lived on fruit, buckwheat pancakes, spanakopitas, salads, lasagne.

If you have a vegetable juicer, then use that. But don't just drink the juice. Add the pulp back. Why? Because the only reason I want you to use the juicer, is to get the maximum minerals out of the vegetables. If you don't eat the pulp, you will get diarrhoea. The pulp is good for your large colon, and gives the beneficial bacteria some bedrock to grow on .

Besides, you can eat far more carrots etc juiced and pulped than you can chewing them. And you get far more out of them that way.

Try any mix you like, but I put together this one, which I love.

2 large carrots.
1 Beetroot,
2 stalks celery,

juice of 1 grapefruit.

Depending on how much you like, this might last you the day. I drink a lot of water, so this lasts me a day.

Oh. And... um. Your poos will change colour...

You can also add in some ginger root, but I don't like that.

there are all sorts of combinations you could have, so play around with it, if you have a juicer.

Dont' be surprised if your little ones insist on trying it too. If they like it, give it to them. Without the pulp. In tiny amounts. It might conceal the vitamin C quite nicely....

Now, for you.

Mental strategy.

Life with whooping cough, is a bit like labour. One contraction at a time.

One cough at a time. don't think ahead except insofar as to plan to have lists for hubby to make sure that you have all you need in the house.

But beyond that, then survival is the main issue. Which means a temporary frontal lobotomy. Reduce everything into small copeable segments of the day.

Roll with the coughs, so to speak. Don't forget to eat little and often. Whatever you need to remember, write on the paper on the fridge. Replace and rename each sheet as you fill it, and number and file the sheets.

Surviving whooping cough is all about organisation, and mental staunchness. Once you get into the swing of it, you will find you have more energy.

Where you lose energy, is getting angry about it all, or resentful that it is happening. The key to reducing tiredness is acceptance, and being physically relaxed.

I know. I can see those shoulders of yours are up, and tight. Put them down. Tuck your chin in. Think "relaxing in the sunshine, birds in the sky, sea waves rhythmically rolling the shore pebbles.

Go on to cruise mode. There is no other way.

And you know what? Not only will you never forget this, you will, by the end, have learned new skills which I am sure will stand you in good stead another time, another place.

I never knew how much resilience I COULD have, until the kids had whooping cough. and later when the oldest landed up in hospital for a week, and during that time I had three hours sleep, I drew heavily on the mental resources I had developed during whooping cough, in order to help me survive that week in hospital, fighting for my son.

So, for every problem, not only is there a solution, but there is also a silver lining.

Manage the disease right, and you will find the silver lining.

You will be very satisfied as an individual. You will have succeeded, and done your best.

Just DON'T break your toe, like I did.

It looks very "unprofessional"

[jojospok23]

Thats wonderful information, looking back I think I would have been much better off if I had known. This was long prior to my researching vaxes. MT, may I copy that please?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Yup no problemo. Or just click on the post number and it will come up as an individual post and you can print it.

[mamachandi]

Wow! thank you MT- I have 3 no vax kids (age11,3 and 7mo.) and so far I haven't had to deal w/ pertussis (at least i think). But this info is invaluable. And It is sooo right on!!! It makes me feel so much better about not vaxing for pertussis. We have outbreaks all the time here in wisconsin and I worry whenever I hear about them-anyway so far so good!!~C

[pumpkinsmama]

http://www.cdc.gov/niP/ed/ImUpdate2005/Tdap.pdf#search='tdap'

Pertussis is one of a few bacterial infections for which antibiotic treatment has
little effect on the course of the illness. Treatment lessens the severity of
pertussis if given early in disease, before the cough is well established. However,
this is usually before the illness is recognized as pertussis.

I would bring this with me and suggest to the doctor that they research more thoroughly before throwing anti-biotics at their patients. Obviously your daughter was well into the disease prior to diagnosis.

I only chose this article to quote from, because I am researching the TDAP vaccine for myself, as recent articles have led me to believe that it will be yet another vacc I will be required to get for work. I am not posting this link to promote this vacc, I do not believe it would be beneficial for any family!!!

[Attila the Honey]

What can I say to follow up MT's post? NOTHING. but I just wanted to pipe in that I agree that sounds far from 'mild' to me. Good luck!

[pumpkinsmama]

You broke your toe? / . Now that is a mothers love!

[rmzbm]

Thanks for that, MT!!
I think my DD may have actually just gotten over a mild case of Pertussis as well...I don't KNOW because I didn't take her to the Dr. It was no biggie ~ but I think I will copy all that too - for future reference.

~Marie

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by pumpkinsmama

You broke your toe? / . Now that is a mothers love!

The youngest had a habit of losing his evening meal, so I'd feed him a few mouthfuls, and send him off to playing knowing full well that within a minute or so, he would start that cough, which would finish up with mucus plus meal in the bowl.

I was writing a letter - you know, handwriting and he started. I grabbed the bowl and shot around the corner, but what I didn't know was that the kids had turned the rug into a geographical terrain to play cars. They used heavy duty carpet cardboard rolls. I went arse over brain, and my left big toe tried to remove the fireplace brick surround and failed.

I also have a bad habit of sitting on that foot when sitting on a chair, so got the nickname "Harry" because everytime I went to sit down, I'd forget and sit on it, and goes straight back up like a harrier jump jet.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

thing is, if you feed them a few mouthfuls, it will trigger the coughing, and they might be sick, but then AFTER that, they can eat a full mea, it won't trigger coughing because the pooled mucus is all up. So its all about managing whooping cough, so they don't lose weight.

[pumpkinsmama]

(What's handwriting? )

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by pumpkinsmama

(What's handwriting? )

I did try it a few weeks ago. It looked really crummy and took me a whole page to get back into the swing of it.

So I've decided I need to do more. You know. Practice.

Might lose it otherwise.

[4xmommy]

OK - am I the only one who is sitting here more scared than ever after reading that post?? We aren't vaxing this baby, but WC really scares the heck out of me!! To the point that I'm almost willing to get the DTaP for that even though I feel Diptheria and Tetanus are completely unnecessary. I know the chances of her getting it are pretty small, but just the thought of seeing my little girl coughing/gasping/vomiting, etc is too much for me. I honestly don't think I could take on such a process of getting the Vit C into her, holding her the way MT described, making sure the mucus comes out, and doing all the other things mentioned for wks on end - I can't imagine how nervous I'd be if I was responsible for treating my child with WC! Knowing that kids DO get it and it IS a serious illness makes it so hard for me to decide what to do....my kids are homeschooled so they aren't exposed to many other children(besides those in our congregation and neighbor kids), but they are vaxed and could get WC and then give it to our newborn.

I guess this is really getting to me because our firstborn daughter died from a congenital heart defect 4 days after she was born....had my dd and then my ds....and now this little baby was a surprise and will be our last and I'd just hate to do anything that could put her in harm's way and the only vax I'm still debating is the DTaP....and that's I guess the most harmful one of all right?? I want to hear that babies get WC and it's not that bad and it's over quick and the shot just isn't necessary, but that's not what I am hearing...it is bad and it is a long illness and they do end up in the hospital. Sometimes I think I was better off not knowing the truth about vaccines.......I had no worries whatsoever with my other 2......other than the typical - "Why is she crying?" "Is she eating enough...pooping enough?" "Am I burping her right?",. etc........this time around I'm asking "Will she have a reaction to this vaccine....will she die of SIDS after getting a DTaP shot........will she end up dead from WC if i don't vax her, what will the long-term consequences be from the MMR ......etc.?" Ignorance was bliss.....but now that I know better, I have to do better, but figuring out just what that is is making me crazy!!!!!!

Please understand that I'm so new to all of this and am soaking it up and loving what I'm learning, but with this new knowledge comes more responsibilty and I'm having a difficult time trusting myself.

[Plummeting]

Originally Posted by 4xmommy

I honestly don't think I could take on such a process of getting the Vit C into her, holding her the way MT described, making sure the mucus comes out, and doing all the other things mentioned for wks on end - I can't imagine how nervous I'd be if I was responsible for treating my child with WC! Knowing that kids DO get it and it IS a serious illness makes it so hard for me to decide what to do....

I want to hear that babies get WC and it's not that bad and it's over quick and the shot just isn't necessary, but that's not what I am hearing...it is bad and it is a long illness and they do end up in the hospital.

Okay, babies get WC and it's not that bad and it's over "quick" (relative to a lifetime ) and the shot just isn't necessary. My DD had WC at 6 months. It lasted about 8 weeks and it was no big deal. I didn't do anything special to help her cough up the mucus, I didn't give her Vit C, I did nothing. I just sat her up when she started to cough, because I knew the coughing would be followed by vomiting and I didn't want her to choke on it. That's it. I imagine if I had known about Vit C for pertussis at the time, she would have been over it in 5 weeks instead of 8. Two other children we know also got it. One was a baby about 5 months old and the other was a toddler. None of them required any treatment whatsoever.

The vaccine is 66% effective - MAXIMUM. In reality, it's probably less than that. So, even if you do give it to your baby, there's a good chance she might catch WC anyway, if she came into contact with it. Furthermore, the fatality rate in infants under 6 months of age is only 0.5%. Only 1 out of every 200 babies under 6 months will die from it. If you stay home and treat it yourself, your odds are probably even better, as far as I can tell.

From reading the OPs post, it sounds as if her daughter has gotten worse and worse with all the medications they've given her. Asthma medications, cough medications and antibiotics will have no effect on pertussis at best and will make it worse at worst - especially asthma medications. Most of them are steroids, which weaken the immune system making ANY infection worse. There is no way to tell what this poor girl's infection would be like if they had just left her alone, but she would almost surely have been better off.

Did you read my post above? Did you read the quotes from the study? Every single quote says the disease was not that serious. If you didn't read it, do yourself a favor and read it. It will make you feel a lot better. Honestly, I used to be very scared of pertussis when DD was a baby also, but it's really not something to fear.

[Sungold17]

OK - am I the only one who is sitting here more scared than ever after reading that post?? We aren't vaxing this baby, but WC really scares the heck out of me!! To the point that I'm almost willing to get the DTaP for that even though I feel Diptheria and Tetanus are completely unnecessary.

I don't know if what I have to say is going to help you at all. I think pertussis is interesting. Do you know that the CDC admits that the vax wears off in 5 to 10 years? And that many adults are walking around with mild pertussis because their vax has worn off, unknown to them, and they are the number 1 spreader to children? In 2002 the number of cases was the highest it has been since 1964 despite high vax rates. There is something wrong about all of this! If you check this site out http://www.pertussis.com/ and read the info for doctors it is a good start on learning about the illness.

The best thing to do is to be prepared. I have no doubt that WC can be a very tiring illness for mom and baby. But you can deal with it if it comes down to it because you are a mom and will find the strength. What I've been doing is lots of research and notes about each illness and how it should be treated if my child gets it. So for WC I know what will need to be done. I also have a herbal book I really like (Naturally Healthy Babies and Children by Aviva Romm) that will guide me. My next step is to find a homeopath I can use for when DS gets sick.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by 4xmommy

OK - am I the only one who is sitting here more scared than ever after reading that post?? We aren't vaxing this baby, but WC really scares the heck out of me!! To the point that I'm almost willing to get the DTaP for that even though I feel Diptheria and Tetanus are completely unnecessary. I know the chances of her getting it are pretty small, but just the thought of seeing my little girl coughing/gasping/vomiting, etc is too much for me. I honestly don't think I could take on such a process of getting the Vit C into her, holding her the way MT described, making sure the mucus comes out, and doing all the other things mentioned for wks on end - I can't imagine how nervous I'd be if I was responsible for treating my child with WC!

Oi, calm down my dear. My posts come from decades of helping mothers sort out babies. Some get it mildly, some not. I can assure you my broken toe was a much bigger deal than nursing kids with whooping cough. After all, every second step was a reminder.

You don't have to hold down kids to get vitamin C into them. I know one very strange child who takes sodium ascorbate off a spoon dry. Now, I couldn't do that. I'd vomit!

Kids will surprise you, just how resilient they are. Sometimes they are a whole lot more resilient than their parents. Their parents sometimes need temporary frontal lobotomies. Or a bottle in front of them.

Often the kids are skittering around, the the parents are reaching for the vapours every ten seconds.

I'm not one of those sorts of people at that level. Though I can only take so much fountaining blood before I start to feel a bit green around the gills.

Knowing that kids DO get it and it IS a serious illness makes it so hard for me to decide what to do....my kids are homeschooled so they aren't exposed to many other children(besides those in our congregation and neighbor kids), but they are vaxed and could get WC and then give it to our newborn.

The reality is that most kids don't get it badly, if they are fed right and have enough vitamin C from the start. My youngest only hoicked every night, because he was unfortunately enough to inherit my immunodeficiency. But despite that, he's now 21 and has never had antibiotics for anything. Of course, in some people eye's that means we're irresponsible and nutters.

By the way, our children were homeschooled from go to whoa, but that didn't stop them picking up bugs. They weren't in a vacuum bell. Every trip to the library, zoo, theatre or down town was an pathogenic opportunity. Course, the worst is the doctors surgery s, so stay away from there.

I guess this is really getting to me because our firstborn daughter died from a congenital heart defect 4 days after she was born....had my dd and then my ds....and now this little baby was a surprise and will be our last and I'd just hate to do anything that could put her in harm's way

Right. And that's what makes most people vaccinate. FEAR.

And so when they end up having a vaccine reaction, with a seriously damaged child as a result, and I'm brought in to help with the case, I find it pretty hard to say anything really.

You want your child to be perfect. We all do. But what you don't realise is that the thing that most likely to make your child less than perfect is environmental bombardment, of which one of those is vaccination. It's not the only one. The biggest ones are sugar, refined foods, agrochemical coshes in the fruit and veges you buy if they aren't organic, car emissions, house chemical emissions, those plastic bottles you let them drink out of, the Saran wrap you might use to cover foods. Take a good hard look around your home and read "Our Stolen Future" and realise that everything that we put into our kids that wasn't what God put there in the first place, has potential to reduce their potential.

Whooping cough is the least of my concerns, because I know that kids kept away from most of the chemical crap in this world, aren't nearly so likely to get it badly. Same applies to most other immunable diseases.

and the only vax I'm still debating is the DTaP....and that's I guess the most harmful one of all right??

Oh yeah, if you look at statistical risk, of say, 1 in however many thousand cases. Problem is, statistical risk isn't the same as actual risk. And actual risk is determined by quite different variables to statistical risk.

I want to hear that babies get WC and it's not that bad and it's over quick and the shot just isn't necessary, but that's not what I am hearing...it is bad and it is a long illness and they do end up in the hospital.

Why would you want me to tell you a lie?

I'm being a realist, and telling it how it can be, and at the same time, telling you you can manage. So long as you don't interview brick fire surrounds with your big toe. Even then I managed. Just... painfully.

If you don't know the truth, then you MIGHT end up in hospital with a bunch of pharmarotes who haven't a clue what to do and who have nothing to offer you apart from the comment "YOu, woman, are a moron for not vaccinating."

I am telling you that if you work it right from the start, whooping cough will be nothing. Most of the serious cases that get to me, didn't know squat and their diets were pretty average. By the time they got to me, it was major drama. And within 24 hours, I had those kids coughs and puking under control, and things were manageable.

Yes, it still lasted the full duration, but would you have it any other way? This way, the disease is kept nuisance value only, the immune system gets a decent work out, and in the process other crap is removed from the body as well.

Why do you look at illness as a negative? Have you read that children who have childhood diseases with fevers have far fewer cancers and connective tissue diseases later in life? It's almost as if the "fires" burn out pre-carcinogenic crap. and exercise the immune system, which learns how to do it the "right" way.

Mimicking that by sticking a needle in the arm isn't going to teach the immune system anything except "Oh, right. That's a needle. Ah I remember this. I'm supposed to produce antibodies : better go and tell the boss " The immune system however, hasn't learned to deal with it from start to the end. The Galt system (gut associated lymphoid tissue) like the Waldeyer's Ring, et al, haven't been involved and wouldn't have the foggiest. The immune system is now, arse about face.

Here's an example. The IPV polio vaccine. Gives your child antibodies in the blood so that if virus gets through the gut and into the system, if you are lucky, your kid won't get paralytic polio, right?

BUT, unlike the oral polio vaccine, which is given the same way as you "get" polio ~ you swallow it ~ there is no immunity in the mucosal immune system anywhere. That means that the IPV vaccinated community all around the Amish community in Minnesota MAY WELL have been the ones who brought the oral polio virus that came up in the samples of those five children, into the district in the first place. Because people who have been vaccinated with IPV instead of OPV, can carry, replicate and spread polio, even though they can't (supposedly) come down with paralytic polio themselves.

The reason they can do that, is that the immunity given through the needle is, as I said, arse about face. How stupid is that s.

Here they are fingering the Amish, when they should be testing out there in the community, whereupon they would find, if the WHO website is anything to go by, that just who is spreading it around, isn't the Amish. Well, the first little girl "caught" it courtesy of a staff member, or fellow patient in the hospital, so they shouldn't be blaming her anyway.

Enough ramble...

Sometimes I think I was better off not knowing the truth about vaccines.......I had no worries whatsoever with my other 2......other than the typical - "Why is she crying?" "Is she eating enough...pooping enough?" "Am I burping her right?",. etc........this time around I'm asking "Will she have a reaction to this vaccine....will she die of SIDS after getting a DTaP shot........will she end up dead from WC if i don't vax her, what will the long-term consequences be from the MMR ......etc.?" Ignorance was bliss.....but now that I know better, I have to do better, but figuring out just what that is is making me crazy!!!!!!

Well, yeah. 99% of ostriches don't get their backsides kicked that bad. But a percentage of them do look at their kids and think "Why do we have all this asthma, allergies, and other problems?" and have no idea that the vast majority of unvaccinated, but also well fed, well slept, well exercised kids have never had an ear infection in their lives.

Do you know how much of a dork I felt at morning mother meetings, with all these mothers around me knowledgeably talking about how they were now onto the third different lot of antibiotics for the sixth ear infection, because the side effects were..... and they all sounded like walking side effects sheets

And I'm sitting there thinking..."I wonder how I would even manage an ear infection. You know what? I still don't know. My kids are 24 and 21. And its not just a fluke, because I had ear infections ad nauseum as a kid, so I know what they feel like. And they only stopped happening, after I became allergic to antibiotics and doctors had nothing they could use.

Okay, better explain something else, mentioned above. I have an immunodeficiency. Whenever I mention the name, most immunologist tense up, coz its the sort of immuno-d that most will want to give immunoglobulin for. There is no WAY I'm letting other people do that.

But technically speaking, if I get any cold, any virus, any tummy bug, I'm potential frying pan to fire stuff. So is my youngest son. Once I found out what the immuno-d was, I turned to quackery. Well, I had nothing to lose. Couldn't use ANY antibiotics as my parents had gone through all types until there weren't any I wasn't allergic to.

Once I got my immuno-d under control, and we realised that youngest son had it too, then I worked on his, to get his under control. He's not quite as bad as me, coz he still has his tonsils. But if they remove them, he'll be in tricky country, so he knows we have to try to keep them at all costs, and so far we've done great.

Meanwhile the Immunologist? Well, he sits there going and says... "Actually, you better now, than most normal patients I see..."

Yes!!!!

And see? That is what NOT being an ostrich can do. I call it facing the bull and staring it down, because I've learned how.

Now what might have happened if I'd put my head in the sand?

Personally, I prefer to look the bull in the eye. Not get a horn up my backside.

Please understand that I'm so new to all of this and am soaking it up and loving what I'm learning, but with this new knowledge comes more responsibilty and I'm having a difficult time trusting myself.

well, look at this as my warm, loving, old grey nag-type patting you on the head, there there talk. s

cos it is.



And if you think it isn't wait till I bite your head off